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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/13/2020 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Omnipong shows a Cary Cup in New York in May.
================
Interesting.

It shows Cary Cup (Mini), don't know what "Mini" means. May mean it won't have a big crowd.

However, the contact "AJ Carney" is interesting. 
AJ is usually closely associated with "Cary Cup" when it was held in Cary (he might be the guy who actually ran it).  Now AJ is in New York.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ttunderthesun21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/14/2020 at 11:02am
Haha I feel like this is a jab from AJ.  I wouldn't be surprised if Micheal sends some legal notice XD.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mycuzinvinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 10:19am
New webpage for TTT, now TBTT, just a change of url, same as the old page.


They might want to proofread their badminton lesson prices...

Badminton Coaching

Packages purchased online or in person and non-refundable. 

 

Group Lessons $25/90 minutes

Group Lesson Package $100/5 x 90 minutes sessions

Private Lessons $27.50/3 minutes                        <=================== !!!!!!

Annual members receive 5% discount on private lessons.

Premium Members receive 10% discount on private lessons.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 10:28am
I am glad to see that they found a way to make it work and TT is still going strong there.

Edited by stiltt - 01/17/2020 at 10:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 10:42am
It is sad that triangle at one time is biggest club in the county and my favorite. But they are fighting for their survival. For general TT club, the owner or directors should be allowed make decent money and in return they can benefit amateur players. Hope they can recover and still support TT.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 11:22am
Entry to the business is easy, but market is niche and tiny... fixed overhead expenses where there is any possible market is nearly cost-prohibitive.

The last place where the TTTC owner started out was similar business environment.

M.L. opened a 12-14 table facility with all red floor and decent lighting and lounge... had taken over a failed Gold's gym. That shoulda been a big warning sign. Dude knew hew pretty much had a year to get 100+ paying members and 20+ taking lessons to make it pay.

That facility he made was easily a top-notch place compared to majority of TT outfits. He had everything in place to make a club hopping - leagues, group lessons, kids camps, hosted world police/fire championships, private lessons, sanctioned tourneys...

He built it, but they didn't come in enough numbers fast enough. M.L. saw the rent figure when he initially opened the place, but didn't consider the other expenses that a Tennent pays... so his fixed overhead was approaching $10,000 a month. He had maybe 70+ members and 10+ taking lessons. It wasn't sustainable.

By the time he was in business there 6 months, he could really see the writing on the wall if the players didn't come. His facility was better than MD TTC in several ways, but critically lacked membership, market, and the big name coaches that drive membership/lessons.

M.L. did some things to increase the cash flow... Membership prices increased. He made some fees for certain things... without more members, it wasn't going to work... and by the time a few more months went by, it was clear that it wouldn't.

I had already paid an annual membership fee up front my first month I arrived and the club was defunct before the end of my membership. Once M.L. got back to private work and made some income, he paid back the remaining balance to me and other members who had annual membership that had time remaining.

This is a typical case of the business risk involved with opening a TT club in USA and why it is so difficult to make TT work in an urban area. If leasing or owning wasn't so ridiculous expensive, we would have way more opportunity for success.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 11:39am
My Local club, SITTA, in Sacramento, CA... similar situation. 15,000 SqFt facility with 20+ tables... potential to take down a length of wall and add 6 more tables... The club owner owns the building and several other buildings in the area from decades ago when it wasn't so expensive to procure. Those properties generate a lot of money, but the SITTA TTC is a black hole financially.

The fair fixed overhead costs of the facility are $10,000-$15,000 in rent and another $5,000 in other costs (utilities, maintenance, security). So $15-20k a month before staff... that means the club, if membership averages $50 a month and club gets $10 an hour for all coaches doing lessons... that means the club needs 200-300 members and 100 taking lessons for it to break even, if someone else is owning it.

...and the local market is seriously Scrooge-ish. Owner feels the need to offer severely discounted rates for seniors, huge market there. There are MILLIONAIRES at this club and in this region who will wear the same $2 t-shirt and not replace their rubbers for 5 years.

Given that market and not so many foreign parents bringing kids to the club, you can see the club is big-time under pressure to financially perform a mission impossible.

Only an owner who has other businesses that can absorb the financial loss of this club could operate a club of this magnitude for any length of time.

Owner finally got a city permit to continue building the restaurant in front... so when he rents that out, it would help out a lot, but still require a very large membership base.

Sitta will be in operation 2 years in a few months. I didn't ask the owner, but it looks like the club has 100-150 members. Club brought on a top junior coaching coach - Avi… and that helped increase the number of kids taking lessons. The club still needs another 100 members and more taking lessons.

If an individual who did not already have other income tried to open a club of this size here... they would be setup for failure. If rent were $5000, then there would be a chance, but that is nowhere near a reality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 11:48am
When I got to Sacramento 3 yrs ago, a new Chinese led club opened up - CALTT.

It was a might dingy, poorly lit (bright/dark/bright right low over table)… too many table too tight together, difficult to see on the wall side of tables, glare... 8 table club.

Yet, there was a market. There were enough Chinese in the area that would take lessons from the 1700-ish LP niece of the owner. They had a dozen + kids take lessons, several adults taking lessons. 50+ members. 2500 SqFt facility. Probably cost $5,000 a month to operate. Had $100 a month membership including weekly group lessons or $60 a month.

She also hosted kid's study in day time.

Looked like owner made enough money to pay the niece a small salary and keep the club alive.

Club was maxed out on room, only way to make more money is to coach more kids and there is a limit to that in the local market for such a club.

Still, that club could have lasted, albeit with the conditions I described. No one in Sacramento had made and lasted as a full time club for decades.

When Sitta started to operate, they lost 20+ members... CALTT was over and that owner pulled out.

Those are the realities of attempting to make a simple business from TT in an urban area. Less urban areas have much lower fixed costs, but unless TT is a school sport or someone figures out how to get garage players to organize, you couldn't generate income enough for 1/2 the operating costs either.

The fixed costs in
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 11:56am
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:


...and the local market is seriously Scrooge-ish. Owner feels the need to offer severely discounted rates for seniors, huge market there. There are MILLIONAIRES at this club and in this region who will wear the same $2 t-shirt and not replace their rubbers for 5 years.

Thanks for your detailed posts... although sad to read, it's all so true. Especially the above.  Cracks me-up.  I've heard complaints that one has to pay, at all. 

Especially true about the senior market being a potentially huge one. Pickleball is cleaning up there. That sport can use outdoor parks and indoor community centers. Plus, no need for expensive tables that need to be cared for.

I don't see how TT can ever be big in this country. So much going against it.


Edited by Ieyasu - 01/17/2020 at 11:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

When I got to Sacramento 3 yrs ago, a new Chinese led club opened up - CALTT.

It was a might dingy, poorly lit (bright/dark/bright right low over table)… too many table too tight together, difficult to see on the wall side of tables, glare... 8 table club.

Yet, there was a market. There were enough Chinese in the area that would take lessons from the 1700-ish LP niece of the owner. They had a dozen + kids take lessons, several adults taking lessons. 50+ members. 2500 SqFt facility. Probably cost $5,000 a month to operate. Had $100 a month membership including weekly group lessons or $60 a month.

She also hosted kid's study in day time.

Looked like owner made enough money to pay the niece a small salary and keep the club alive.

Club was maxed out on room, only way to make more money is to coach more kids and there is a limit to that in the local market for such a club.

Still, that club could have lasted, albeit with the conditions I described. No one in Sacramento had made and lasted as a full time club for decades.

When Sitta started to operate, they lost 20+ members... CALTT was over and that owner pulled out.

Those are the realities of attempting to make a simple business from TT in an urban area. Less urban areas have much lower fixed costs, but unless TT is a school sport or someone figures out how to get garage players to organize, you couldn't generate income enough for 1/2 the operating costs either.

The fixed costs in

TT clubs are unusually vulnerable to relatively small changes in their environment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 5:20pm
The failed clubs were too large.  The surviving club in BHMan's story was eight tables, until knocked out by the financially doomed too-big club entering the market.  Clubs that find cheap space for five to eight table, with all free family labor plus maybe a  self-sustaining coach can survive in most markets.  12+ table clubs can't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Thanks for your detailed posts... although sad to read, it's all so true. Especially the above.  Cracks me-up.  I've heard complaints that one has to pay, at all. 

Especially true about the senior market being a potentially huge one. Pickleball is cleaning up there. That sport can use outdoor parks and indoor community centers. Plus, no need for expensive tables that need to be cared for.

I don't see how TT can ever be big in this country. So much going against it.



The senior community has a huge potential, even if the monthly membership fee is way less... if SITTA could get 100+ seniors there, it could pay. Propblem is, in urban areas, lots of seniors live in senior communities that already have infrastructure and are already organized... at least 2-3x a week for TT right in the neighborhood they live... some nearly every day.

That makes it tough for them to drive 5-30 miles just to do a few hrs of TT.

Michael Levene saw the potential of the organized social TT crowd - MEETUP was a deal to get interested social TTers into league. M.L. was successful in getting a dozen+ a week in league. I never saw a club get that crowd organized in any numbers. Sure, low 10s once a week is not a huge number, but it was a proper effort in the right direction. He was barking up the right tree, but it is difficult to attract players to the club with a bark or even dancing cheerleaders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/19/2020 at 5:18pm
The monthly rent is too high, $20 K per month.

Membership has been declining.
Profitable tournament, like Cary Cup, stopped.
Newly organized tournaments attracting few entries - a dozen or less.

Interesting to see if TTT club can survive until the end of this year.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ttunderthesun21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2020 at 8:01am
His go to tactics for tournaments was to increase entry fees, and lower prize money lol.  I have nooo clue why he wouldn't run cary cup, it's gotta be the biggest draw/profit the whole year tournaments wise.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttforlife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2020 at 9:00am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

The monthly rent is too high, $20 K per month.

Membership has been declining.
Profitable tournament, like Cary Cup, stopped.
Newly organized tournaments attracting few entries - a dozen or less.

Interesting to see if TTT club can survive until the end of this year.



Cary cup actually wasn't profitable for the club. After prize money, pay for referee, pay for umpire since they were employees of the club, and lost coaching revenue for the entire weekend they probably barely broke even or even lost $.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2020 at 8:22am
That's bad.  Didn't Cary Cup sell out well ahead of time every year?  Who designs an event where you lose money  even on a sellout?  No wonder the club has financial trouble, sheesh.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttforlife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2020 at 8:53am
The main event did atleast. 

1. Prior to 2019 - Employees paid $15 hour and they usually had 3-4 working all weekend.
2. Prior to 2019 - Linda leaf paid $1000ish to come referee. 
3. Tables blocked for playing = no coaching, i'd estimate atleast 40 + hours of coaching lost ? 40 * 55 * 40% cut = 880, maybe $1000 ish lost there give or take
4. Prize money 2019 - 8400 cash and 1275 club credit + Thursday and Friday events

NC entry fee was 75, 90-95 if not, main event pulls around 10k revenue minus the above. If there was any profit it was minimal at best and coming from the Thursday and Friday events. Prior to 2019 definitely at a loss with the overhead. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2020 at 11:40am
These giant round robins aren't appealing to me.  I'd rather pay $30 for a 3 hour event with 4-7 matches than $65 for an event that could be all day with 10+ matches.  Too old for that...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2020 at 11:44am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

That's bad.  Didn't Cary Cup sell out well ahead of time every year?  Who designs an event where you lose money  even on a sellout?  No wonder the club has financial trouble, sheesh.

It is bad business, especially since only a handful of players had a shot at the big money.  I'd imagine most players aren't in it for the money, they're playing for excitement and rating points.  Having Jishan Liang or whoever come to the club and get a big check does nothing for the club really.   These clubs should focus on appealing to the greatest number of players, not appealing to the elite.  If they could get Ma Long to show up that would be something.  But they aren't.

Having smaller affordable, shorter events appeals to older people, people on a budget etc.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2020 at 11:58am
Originally posted by WeebleWobble WeebleWobble wrote:

These giant round robins aren't appealing to me.  I'd rather pay $30 for a 3 hour event with 4-7 matches than $65 for an event that could be all day with 10+ matches.  Too old for that...

I love the giant RR's.  They give me lots of matches against many different levels and styles.  10-15 matches is a good day for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2020 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by WeebleWobble WeebleWobble wrote:

These giant round robins aren't appealing to me.  I'd rather pay $30 for a 3 hour event with 4-7 matches than $65 for an event that could be all day with 10+ matches.  Too old for that...

I love the giant RR's.  They give me lots of matches against many different levels and styles.  10-15 matches is a good day for me.
=====================
It is the giant RR format that attracts many of our club members to drive 175 miles there to play.
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This was regarding Cary Cup form Mike Babuin on FB:

Cary Cup 2020
Ok...many of you are asking.

Here is the story. As many of you know, for many reasons, I stepped back from CC for several years now after giving it life in 2002 and running it for many years. 

I was very saddened to see it erode in 2016 into 'just another tournament' in my absence. When TTT transitioned to new ownership by Michael Levene in late 2018, the 2019 Cary Cup was already planned and sanctioned so in a sense, 'the horse had already left the gate' by 2018 for the 2019 Cary Cup. All in all it was still a decent tournament, but by my standards I wanted more. 

So...this year, there is a high probability that we WILL have a Cary Cup bigger and better than ever before. However, it won't be happening in March. At present, we are looking at mid August. Exact dates to follow within two weeks. 

While August is new for Cary Cup so too will be the name. I am rebranding this as the 'Americas Cup' to give the tournament a more National level title. 

However, I am back and will be designing the tournament and running it. That means you can be assured that every attention to detail will follow and that GREAT prize money and trophies are back. My goal is to have a total purse of $30,000 and if that can be pulled off, it will be the largest Cary Cup EVER. As always you need to sign up for the tournament immediately because this will certainly fill up quickly. 

Good news is...we are targeting events from Wednesday through Sunday - you can pick and choose what interests you as always. 

I am grateful for Michael and Nina Levene, Jason, and everyone at Triangle for embracing this wonderful tournament, once again - and I guarantee that we will go all out this year to make it very memorable for everyone. 

Please note that we will use the entire Triangle facility for the event. 

More too follow in a couple of weeks. 

Please spread this around so it gets distributed. Efforts are underway.



Edited by Ttunderthesun21 - 01/23/2020 at 4:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 9:56am
..............My goal is to have a total purse of $30,000 ....................
===============
And other over-head, will it be profitable?

If the entry fee is too high, fewer will attend. Very few players entering this event thinking about prize money, except Liang Jishan.  If the entry fee is not high enough, this event may not be profitable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2020 at 11:14am
Thanks for updating. Wait for new announcement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2020 at 9:55am
Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

Thanks for updating. Wait for new announcement.
===============
Sounds like it will be in 2 weeks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mycuzinvinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 10:23am
Outside of the US Open/Nationals/Hopes/Trials, what other tournaments require tourney pass/coach pass?  TTT has a $10 fee for non-player/spectator/coach to attend the tournament.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 10:34am
Westchester Table Tennis has one as well for Sunday(the Open and higher level events).
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Carbonado 190
FH: T05H 1.9 B
BH: T05H 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttforlife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2020 at 9:44am
Originally posted by mycuzinvinny mycuzinvinny wrote:

Outside of the US Open/Nationals/Hopes/Trials, what other tournaments require tourney pass/coach pass?  TTT has a $10 fee for non-player/spectator/coach to attend the tournament.



Word on the street is Ojo and Rachid didn't even play their match (nobody saw them play?), and they wrote down a score of 2-3 with winner being Rachid. $10 to watch the two top players fake a match!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2020 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Ttunderthesun21 Ttunderthesun21 wrote:

This was regarding Cary Cup form Mike Babuin on FB:

Cary Cup 2020
Ok...many of you are asking.

Here is the story. As many of you know, for many reasons, I stepped back from CC for several years now after giving it life in 2002 and running it for many years. 

I was very saddened to see it erode in 2016 into 'just another tournament' in my absence. When TTT transitioned to new ownership by Michael Levene in late 2018, the 2019 Cary Cup was already planned and sanctioned so in a sense, 'the horse had already left the gate' by 2018 for the 2019 Cary Cup. All in all it was still a decent tournament, but by my standards I wanted more. 

So...this year, there is a high probability that we WILL have a Cary Cup bigger and better than ever before. However, it won't be happening in March. At present, we are looking at mid August. Exact dates to follow within two weeks. 

While August is new for Cary Cup so too will be the name. I am rebranding this as the 'Americas Cup' to give the tournament a more National level title. 

However, I am back and will be designing the tournament and running it. That means you can be assured that every attention to detail will follow and that GREAT prize money and trophies are back. My goal is to have a total purse of $30,000 and if that can be pulled off, it will be the largest Cary Cup EVER. As always you need to sign up for the tournament immediately because this will certainly fill up quickly. 

Good news is...we are targeting events from Wednesday through Sunday - you can pick and choose what interests you as always. 

I am grateful for Michael and Nina Levene, Jason, and everyone at Triangle for embracing this wonderful tournament, once again - and I guarantee that we will go all out this year to make it very memorable for everyone. 

Please note that we will use the entire Triangle facility for the event. 

More too follow in a couple of weeks. 

Please spread this around so it gets distributed. Efforts are underway.

========================
Have you heard anything from Mike Babuin?
Within 2 weeks, it has been 13 days now. Has Mike mentioned anything?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2020 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by Ttunderthesun21 Ttunderthesun21 wrote:

This was regarding Cary Cup form Mike Babuin on FB:
Cary Cup 2020

Ok...many of you are asking.

Here is the story. As many of you know, for many reasons, I stepped back from CC for several years now after giving it life in 2002 and running it for many years. 

I was very saddened to see it erode in 2016 into 'just another tournament' in my absence. When TTT transitioned to new ownership by Michael Levene in late 2018, the 2019 Cary Cup was already planned and sanctioned so in a sense, 'the horse had already left the gate' by 2018 for the 2019 Cary Cup. All in all it was still a decent tournament, but by my standards I wanted more. 

So...this year, there is a high probability that we WILL have a Cary Cup bigger and better than ever before. However, it won't be happening in March. At present, we are looking at mid August. Exact dates to follow within two weeks. 

While August is new for Cary Cup so too will be the name. I am rebranding this as the 'Americas Cup' to give the tournament a more National level title. 

However, I am back and will be designing the tournament and running it. That means you can be assured that every attention to detail will follow and that GREAT prize money and trophies are back. My goal is to have a total purse of $30,000 and if that can be pulled off, it will be the largest Cary Cup EVER. As always you need to sign up for the tournament immediately because this will certainly fill up quickly. 

Good news is...we are targeting events from Wednesday through Sunday - you can pick and choose what interests you as always. 

I am grateful for Michael and Nina Levene, Jason, and everyone at Triangle for embracing this wonderful tournament, once again - and I guarantee that we will go all out this year to make it very memorable for everyone. 

Please note that we will use the entire Triangle facility for the event. 

More too follow in a couple of weeks. 

Please spread this around so it gets distributed. Efforts are underway.

=============================


Have you heard anything from Mike Babuin?

He said: "More too follow in a couple of weeks. "  It has been more than a couple of weeks.

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