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USA technique hang up? |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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Posted: 06/18/2011 at 6:34pm |
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I have never come to grips with why the US guys are so hung up on the importance of technique. Its really not what makes the difference between a world top 200 player and a world top 10 player, there are so many other factors. There are for instance, many many players that show better technique than Schlager, his technique is awful in text book terms, yet he was world champion, he was world champion because of other aspects to his game, his deception ( because of his lack of text book technique which makes him hard to 'read' for his opposition) and mental tactical awareness.
I am a regular on many forums, But this one seems to be obsessed with the technique of the f/hand drive, Why? All players of world class will put a ball away with ease when given the chance, 'power' is not the issue, its the exellence of serves, short game and general awareness of the playing situation that makes the difference., what makes a top 10 player over a top 100 player is his ability to make the openings for a winner, not the power of the winner as an entity.
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cls2222
Silver Member Joined: 10/23/2010 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 646 |
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True, good form will not make you a better player, in fact, it will make your shots more predictable. However, it looks nice :) and with perfect form you can get a little bit more power behind your shots.
I think the amazing tt uploaders on youtube are at fault here :) They only show us the points where players make amazing shots and power through balls like no tomorrow. Edited by cls2222 - 06/18/2011 at 6:54pm |
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avova
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Schlager became a world champion by accident.
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popperlocker
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1753 |
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In the US we are exposed to many styles, and that initially confuses us. So we focus on technique to understand the mysteries. Yes, making openings, serves, and short game are extremely important. But people under 1900-2100 usatt (which 90% of population on this forum) have trouble finishing. If you give them a long push, pop up, or block, they miss mostly because of their past garage technique. Another reason, is because of the Chinese coach's influence. We have many Chinese coaches, and they teach technique before deception. So it's not our fault :D
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cls2222
Silver Member Joined: 10/23/2010 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 646 |
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Here we go... May you elaborate a little more on your statement? I want to hear how you can possibly rationalize this. |
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Korbel
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Fruit loop
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Idiot. |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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APW46, I think another reason is that many in the USA play without access to coaching. Until just recently I was playing without regular coaching. For a brief period I drove 420 miles round trip for lessons in preparation for the US Open, but I just could not keep that up for very long. The forums are often the only place we have to go to resolve questions about our game, especially when we see conflicting techniques or get conflicting instructions from other local players.
Mark
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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I like this answer.
We are picked on for so many things? I understand it's easy but really i think it's just to make other countries feel better about the chinese being better than them. "We're better than someone, too!" APW I'm not saying that's what your post is... but it does happen a lot on this forum.
The first half is because it's barely considered a sport here... it's considered a basement game. Therefore, we get made fun of for being basement ping pong players who have no technique and no game. I think a lot of us look at technique that way because first of all.. at least the way I look at it- using proper technique requires a lot of discipline and having technical discipline is having respect for your craft (just as the rest of the aspects of TT do) and it's one way of making it more serious in a country where it's not taken seriously. Another reason is because of our coaching status. The majority of us do not have coaching. I do not have coaching. All the other things you mention APW take coaching, just like the technical side. But to someone who doesn't know much about what they are doing... technique is step 1 and becomes important. It's a starting point. The other half is just like said above, when we DO have coaching, it's chinese the majority of the time, which favor heavily fundamental technique over anything. I don't see anything wrong with that. There are different schools of thought for every sport and craft... and yours is one school of thought and the technique favoring players are another school of thought. While you raise valid questions and have a valid argument.... some people look at it from the other way- sure there is Schlager. Sure Europeans and other guys focus more on the other things.. But the Chinese players have perfect technique almost all the time, along with all the other tools.... people see the technique most easily.. and the chinese reign supreme. So that school of thought becomes more popular because of who the best is right now. Crowd favor.
Also, a lot of people will admit and a lot wont... but presentation and how you look is honestly important to some people. If you look the part, people will take you more seriously. That's how it's thought of. And realistically... i bet this last part is probably the biggest reason Americans try so hard on technique- because we want to look pretty and be taken seriously. Being taken seriously is apparently impossible for american table tennis, huh? Edited by beeray1 - 06/18/2011 at 10:05pm |
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ZingyDNA
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I don't think Schlager's technique is in an awful form. In fact I don't think it's bad-looking at all. It's just a little rigid... |
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ZingyDNA
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It's not the form that makes your shot predictable. |
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cls2222
Silver Member Joined: 10/23/2010 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 646 |
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Your right, but when a player has a very unorthodox stroke, it's even harder to tell where he/she is going to hit. That being said, experience is really the factor here, unorthodox form just gives you a small edge, especially if you can exploit it to the greatest extent (e.g. TB's, MM's fade-forehand down the line or Ovtcharov's, ZJK's backhand flick). |
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Vassily
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If you are trying to win, and focus on perfect FH loop technique, then yes it might be wrong and you are better served focussing on another aspect of the game.
But if you play the game for fun, then you might enjoy having a beautiful smooth technique and killing balls with 500% overkill, because it is always fun. Or you might enjoy trying different equipment. All are completely valid and equally good ways of enjoying TT. Not everyone plays TT to win. |
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ztec
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True, it depends on who you ask though. A lot of forum goers are likely, on my assumption, players who started beyond their physical prime at an age where acquiring the minute details becomes difficult due to time constraints, other interests/commitments, lack of coaching, lack of consistent high level partners or even partners to begin with. So the idea of having a proper forehand technique becomes sort of an attainable goal for many. It's not entirely too daunting to at least imitate form of champions, it's another story to execute it well and consistently in a match; it takes countless more hours of practice to grasp the timing, spacing, etc. involved in Ma Long's game than it does to mirror his FH swing. If you talk to the juniors and younger players in the US who have gotten coaching since their youth, they'll know nothing about this forum or even much about equipment, a lot of them don't even keep up with ITTF events.
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Your play will change your opinion of your equipment more than your equipment will change your opinion of your play.
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sahiggs100
Silver Member Joined: 04/23/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 518 |
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The so called "proper technique" is something that all world class players have but not everyone that has it is a world class player. What I mean is that it is like a foundation to a house, it's important and without the house won't last but it's not what makes the house. There are plenty of players that have amazing technique yet will never make it to world class because they don't have that extra something. Look at Wang Hao or Ma lin, I'm sure that they both have amazing proper technique and can hit the ball back and forth for hours but on the tournament table they have the extra thing that makes them both unique and world class. You have to have both.
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pnachtwey
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I don't see it except on the forums.The local coach basically says keep your eye on the ball and if you want to make the same swing each time you need foot work to get into the same position relative to where you are going to hit the ball. The club players all have different styles and techniques. Some techniques are better than others alot depends on shot selection and not just the stroke.
I have no idea why but this forum doen't seem to be rational much of the time and posts with more feeling than facts. I have said this before, the ball doesn't care what happened to the paddle before or after contact as long as during the contact the ball is given the correct impluse. I see technique as a way of adding consistency to the shot as in do things the same way you should always get the same results. Obviously the opponent is not going to let you do things the same way and force you to modify your stroke or technique. |
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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This is probably it. All the other countries seem to have cheap coaching available to them, while we have expensive coaching and also a lot of people don't have access to coaching. Schlager actually has good basic technique, its just that he is too stiff. Wiggy, I see your videos of you looping. Why are you looping if you don't care about technique, why don't you just hit sidespin shots with a little tap? |
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APW46
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The essence of what I'm trying to say is that players with a relatively low rating make a choice about which technique they are going to try to develope, yet can never achieve it because they spend too little time grooving it in, they would be far better off learning about table craft and matchplay.
I'm not saying I don't care about technique Kenney88, mine was grooved in many years ago when I spent every waking minute training ( my point really) but if you are not prepared to put the time in, you won't get what you are looking for, just an inconsistent copy of it. There are many threads about the superiority of the 'Chinese' loop, yet most acnowledge that the 'Euro' loop is easier to accomplish to a quality standard, yet with limited time and recources available, most of you go for the Chinese loop, as if its ever gonna make any difference at the realistic level of play you are likely to achieve.
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kenneyy88
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As you always write, a loop is a loop. Who cares what kinda loop they want to play with. Most people will learn for themselves to see how they can put topspin on the ball with both methods and they will choose how they can best put topspin on the ball or how they prefer to play it. Both methods are similar anyway. And I see many posts that are not just about looping. I see many posts on how to put more spin on the service, how to return certain serves, etc. BTW, it seems the person that is most obsessed about this euro vs chinese loop thing is you.
Edited by kenneyy88 - 06/19/2011 at 4:31am |
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Tinykin_2
Silver Member Joined: 01/30/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 540 |
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Wiggy, you have to be
careful when using forumers to judge the whole. Players who come here tend to
be those fairly new to the sport who want to improve their game. They are looking for
advice, thus the focus on technique and those things which are so obvious to a
veteran like yourself. Also the average, active, decent US
player (~2100) only plays about 50-100 competition matches (excluding club
matches) per season. While the comparative UK player has >200 competition
matches, mostly in a team situation. Thus the US player is much more about the
techniques involved to better himself as an individual seen through better
ratings rather than purely focusing on 'winning' as such. I know there are a lot of holes in that POV but hopefully u get the drift. Edited by Tinykin_2 - 06/19/2011 at 5:34am |
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APW46
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icontek
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On this forum it seems that the people who desire chinese strokes are simply more vocal than others.
I don't think it's representative of table tennis in the US as a percentage of the playing population. Of the 80 or so active tournament players in my state, only ten or so have "chinese technique". And all but two of them are Chinese expatriates in their forties or fifties. |
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dingyibvs
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It's not what you're saying, but how and how often you're saying it. You seem to pop up on every looping technique thread to preach your message, but you don't seem to understand the TT culture in the U.S. People's reaction here when they hear that you play TT is a snicker and "oh that's cute." It's like saying you go to the club every week to play hungry hungry hippos. Thus, players in the U.S., at least those outside of Chinese communities, are under much more jeering peer pressure than those elsewhere, and they have to be much more passionate about the game to continue. With that, a number of factors change. For one, you want to show people that it's a real sport, a real and shall I say beautiful sport. Playing like pushblocker, whom I have a lot of respect for skill and dedication-wise, isn't gonna do it. Secondly, when you're really dedicated to something, you want to become the best possible, so there's this focus on getting the right technique to maximize one's potential. Even though you might never reach the "break even" point where your time used on technique is more effective than the time you could've used to be an expert with poor form, the dream of becoming the best is still there. After all, all pros play more or less alike. What you need to understand is that for some people, there's more to the game than just becoming a good player. For people who are passionate about the game, for people who have to constantly cast aside the snickers of their friends and family, a dream to become Ma Long or Timo Boll, or a desire to show people just how amazing and amazingly beautiful one can be at the ping pong table, can be more important. I'm sure there are other factors I haven't mentioned, but I just wanted to show you some of the culture differences.
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racquetsforsale
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Hear hear. I for one have told the coach at my club that I do not intend to become a good table tennis player, just a good striker of the ball and a good mover, and that I care more about executing the techniques correctly than winning. Guess what, as my strokes and footwork develop, I become a better player anyways, all without taking the approach of figuring out how to win by developing a mean game based on strategies, and idiosyncrasies. I want to be able to beat people because I command more strokes and better strokes, in other words being technically superior, not because I can outsmart them. This approach will continue to work until I've reached my technical potential or when everyone else I play has technique just as good as mine. |
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benfb
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+1000 Well said and does convey the reality.
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beeray1
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This is important. I understand that about as well as anyone can... because I used to fit the bill perfectly. You set out to do a certain thing and have a certain technique. But without grooving that technique in, it becomes something extra that you have to think about when you should be thinking about what you're doing with the ball. I had that problem for 2 years- I was thinking about how I hit the ball every time because it wasn't automatic.. and therefore my match play suffered a lot. You are absolutely better off learning table craft and match play if you can't groove the strokes in. A lot of american players are that way, too. But I guess some people aim too high and think they can be a 2300 player eventually by playing twice a week. It just doesn't happen without putting the time in. Table craft and match play alone only get you so far, sure- but when you only have so much time to play, focusing on those things are going to make you better as a player in the end compared to focusing on technique.
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chronos
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"Its really not what makes the difference between a world top 200 player and a world top 10 player"
APW, much respect, I always enjoy your posts here on the forum. The quote that I gave from you is what I want to focus on. I happen to be in the US, and I don't think what you describe here is lost on anyone that I train or play with. But for a lower level player, the difference between top 500, top 200, top 10 is absolutely unattainable - we all have other commitments, we're about 20 years too old, etc - it just isn't going to happen. It's wrong to complain about any top 500 players 'unorthodox loop' but not at all wrong for a player between intermediate and advanced level to ask a decently competent coach if their forehand or backhand has any glaring problems. I think basic technique, in particular in pushing, flipping, and any kind of backhand shot, can really be a make or break for an intermediate player. So good solid fundamentals are worth pursuing. But its a completely different pathology to question a world class player on technique - clearly that is not the limit at that point, as you so rightly point out, and being unconvential is more likely an asset to ones game. |
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obesechopper
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Sounds like you have it really rough. |
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Speedplay
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Kind of funny, cause I consider my self to be a true TT nerd and I discuss TT with a lot of other player's, but I've never discussed the Chinese vs European loop with any one outside of this forum.
Why? Because I don't think it matters. Everyone should try to find the stroke most suitable for them, the stroke that they feel most comfortable with. As it is now, all US members seems to post about how they should get the chinese looping technique, and how this technique is superior. It might be true that it is superior, I don't know, but I do know that it doesn't matter for players at our level. Cause if you want to have their technique, then you better put in their amount of practice. Sure, some people play for other reasons then imporving their game, but I doubt that any one will be more impressed with you single awesome kill shot, then they would be with your consistent attacks, regardless of the looks of the strokes. |
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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IMHO, the US guys are not unique in their obsession with FH loop technique. I'm from UK, just like Wiggy, play in a local league, and my team mate is obsessed with the "technique/quality" of his FH loop to such an extent that he completely neglected his serves and short game.
When it works, his FH loop is deadly. But he loses more points due to mistakes receiving serves or pushing than he wins FH looping. And the result - he languishes at the bottom of the division simply because he's unable to overcome players who cannot loop at all yet who can push consistently with good placement (and do not use anti or long pips, etc). Edited by vvk1 - 06/20/2011 at 10:01am |
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LOOPMEISTER
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USA technique hang up? Maybe you mean MYTT forum users' hang up? This forum is hardly representative of US table tennis... Come to the US to play in a few tournaments sometime, otherwise don't judge a whole country by what a handful of people write about on one internet forum.
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