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Use FAST equipment to improve |
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frogger
Premier Member Joined: 08/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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I feel there are great variations among players concerning their arm speed. Player A has a fast stroke, good body mechanics and uses a medium speed blade with medium fast rubbers. Player B has slower arm speed, good body mechanics and uses a fast blade and rubbers. So who produces greatest ball speed? Another mystery of the universe. I have hit fast with a 3-ply Hock, also hit fast with OFF+ carbon blade close/mid and I can honestly say for the first 15 feet of ball travel I can't tell the difference. The feel at ball contact is very different of course between the two blades but the speed seems the same when smashing. I call this the "Frogger Effect".
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Wood Paddle
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Smashing is not quite the way to test blade speed or rubber speed, to be honest, even as there are differences. Looping/loop driving is where the difference between blade speeds really shows up as the faster setup (blade/rubber combo) tends to send everything out further quicker with less spin for the same stroke.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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You make really good points there PPP. What we have to remember though, is that the kids on national training programs are inevitably too busy playing/training to waste there time on TT forums anyway. The amateurs with no particular ambition are not here either. That leaves the ambitious late developers, ambitious players with little time or opportunity, but most do want to improve and IMO, those are the ones asking for advice. So my advice always will be centred around players getting the maximum they can despite their limitations, and it is as always, stay away from the top end blades of any range, they are the demons to this type of player, they don't actually need the advice because they will find out, but they can save themselves lots of time and money, it might not be as much fun as brandishing the most powerful weapon though
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
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APW has nailed it regarding who hangs out here. (I would add that there is another group too, players who started as kids, were decent junior players, and then took decades off before returning to the sport). Ultimately, a lot of people at some point are tempted to try these super fast blades and then figure out for themselves. The lure is so strong that nothing can stop people from trying them at some point if they have the resources to explore equipment a bit. I did a lot of that at a point. The Xiom Axelo was the most absurd blade I ever tried. I actually didn't know it at the time I bought it, I just wanted to try one of their blades, the only way to do it was to buy one, and based on their website that seemed like one that might be worth trying. I am not sure how best to describe how fast it is. Absurdly fast, much more than I was expecting. A totally unreasonable blade. Also, for some people on this site spending money on blades and rubber is a large part of the fun of the whole thing. I still like trying other people's blades, but am confident that at this point I am very unlikely to find something I like better than what I use now. So I just don't buy them anymore. All the same, I don't regret the money I spent on so many failed experiments.
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6895 |
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Actually, I think that a lot of the people DON'T learn the lesson. They play in small clubs where they play the same people over again, and they don't get out enough to really figure out the limitations of fast blades and sticky rubbers.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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andy.h
Member Joined: 05/23/2012 Location: New York, USA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
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I can +100 this!!! These three are killing me now :( I started to play tt seriously a couple of years ago in my mid-thirties and since I could afford it I bought the most ridiculously fast paddle: bty photino + t05 (max). I started taking tt lessons and as my coach was focusing only on fh loop - quite soon I developed pretty good fh loop and footwork that allowed me to cover fh side and half of the bh side with my fh loop. This moved me up to 1700+ in USATT because 2nd and 3rd ball attacks were lethal up to that level. But then it turned out that at 1800+ usatt people can actually return my loops back. And since my loops were fast - they were coming back so fast that I'd loose the point right away. So, after reading lot's of opinions on this forum I "downgraded" my paddle to bty primorak (off-) and xiom vega europe (2.0) - much slower, but since I was now able to recover for second loop (and learned how to do it properly) - I moved quite a bit into 1800+ territory. However, recently my son took my "slow" paddle and gave second chance to my old fast paddle thinking that at 1800+ level I could probably handle it. Result - I am back deep in 1700. Reason: 90% of points I loose in those three areas pingpongpaddy mentioned above: dismal blocking (net or way off the table), pushes that go long off the table and tons of trouble returning serves. So, now I am going to get a new, "slow" paddle instead of one my son took and here is the question: I bought OSP Virtuoso (off-) and now I am thinking whether I should dial down on rubbers as well: should I try "non-tensor" rubbers to learn how to block/push/return serves/short game properly and develop a "touch" people say so much about? Something like Sriver EX or??? Thanks! |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Take what I say with a pinch of salt, as my max perf is 1900, but slowing down the blade is much more important than slowing down the rubber, so I would say go down to an ALL or ALL+ blade and keep the Tenergy. You can also consider going with a less spinny Japanese rubber like Calibra or Nanospin II if you aren't into high throw counterlooping,
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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By all means dial back on the rubbers. If you can afford it go for 2mm sriver on the FH and perhaps Tackiness chop 1.5 on the BH. With that you could be still aggressive with the fh, but with more control. With the BH tackiness you would have a lot of spin, but above all super control. Now spend 12 months trying to become one of those annoying people who can block loops and above all control the ball and therefore your opponent. After that you will have a proper perspective of the game and maybe consider being your own coach. Regard it as a lifetime project and have fun with it. It doesnt matter much if you get precisely those rubbers its more about learning to think about and analyse tt for yourself. Googling 'Ping skills' a youtube tt tutorial service can keep you in touch with good technique for nothing. good luck! Edited by pingpongpaddy - 12/03/2013 at 8:29pm |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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frogger
Premier Member Joined: 08/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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If all the blades on the market were blended together then what would be the one offspring as a result. My guess would be something like Primorac. God why do I think this stuff up? I say play with a setup you feel most comfortable with be it a premade or a Ross Leidy creation with rubber X.
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Wood Paddle
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puppy412
Silver Member Joined: 03/25/2013 Location: houston Status: Offline Points: 686 |
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this is a nice example. faster or slower equipment won't move you from 1900 to 2500, it will at most move you 100 points or so. also, you could say that to your immediate needs an all blade is the best choice. but what about long term? one day you probably will want to use a viscaria or a photino or a korbel or a primorac carbon. wouldn't it be better to get used to that speed now? |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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IMO
No |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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puppy412
Silver Member Joined: 03/25/2013 Location: houston Status: Offline Points: 686 |
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IYO is there a reason why any person should use something faster than an all blade? |
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doraemon
Gold Member Joined: 05/14/2007 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1738 |
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You walk before you can run.
From andy.h experience, it is clear to him that at this moment, slower blade is the correct choice. When he was back using faster blade, his rating dropped. So, I think he should use his slower blade until he can really do well, then it's not a problem to use faster blade (as long as he can control it). I know that some people think that, in the end, if you are going to use TBS, why not use it now and learn to control it. Think about this (extreme example): Racers usually start with Gokart, then Formula 3, and finally Formula 1. You don't suggest a beginner to directly start with Formula 1, do you? So, use any blades you can control well (regardless of speed), but since beginners still struggle to control, don't give them something they can't handle. Edited by doraemon - 12/03/2013 at 9:16pm |
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Blade : Just wood
FH : black rubber BH : red rubber |
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puppy412
Silver Member Joined: 03/25/2013 Location: houston Status: Offline Points: 686 |
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of course racers would start in formula 1, but they have no name, so they need to prove themselves and stand out in the lower categories. no formula 1 company would hire them. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
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Primorac carbon is not in the same category as the other three you list! I think it is much faster. So with that exception.... IMHO, maybe. Depends on many things. |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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This is a very good point, and exactly why some people get confused, the advice to a rapidly improving kid who is playing many hours under a decent coach, is different to an older player who is not displaying decent technique and cannot spend time to improve it, if they are asking the question because they want better results, usually quickly and by use of equipment.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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pandasashi
Member Joined: 11/30/2013 Location: ottawa Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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i agree with both sides of this arguement... i just have a quick suggestion, i may be wrong but i thought id put it out there anyways...
wouldnt it be best to use a paddle that has many gears (like a 1 ply hinoki)? that way, you get the feel right and can hold back a lot of the speed and can slowly start to put a bit more "oumph" into your shots as you get better without needing to buy a new paddle and get used to yet another set up? what do you guys think?
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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hi puppy yes:- to repeat myself I think that one should play with the fastest equipment that you can push, block, and return serve with satisfactory confidence. If you cant do those shots well, it wont matter what the speed of drive and kill is. Its not 1 size fits all. By the above criteria. Andy.H is not happy with a fast setup. APW46 likes slower blade with fast rubbers. I like 1 ply hinoki with sp - that is quite fast, but sp gives me a lot of control. I dont recommend 1 ply hinoki for learners unless you can afford to buy 2 at a time, because you always need a spare in case of one splitting. You have to decide according to your style and abilities. And of course, its best to use Baal's method of finding out what is best try your clubmates equipment. Don't rely on catalogues, or indeed Internet forums to give you info that you can only really find out with the equipment in your hand and an opponent to play. Its a very frustrating experience to know with certainty 15 minutes after testing your latest megabuck purchase that you dont want to play with it. IMO if you find that you are not conscious of your equipment during a match but are just focused your tactics and your opponent, then probably your equipment is a good fit Edited by pingpongpaddy - 12/04/2013 at 8:53am |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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puppy412
Silver Member Joined: 03/25/2013 Location: houston Status: Offline Points: 686 |
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well I'll give you my personal experience. I was using off blades like viscaria and ebenholz v with short pips on one side and chinese rubber on the other. one day I changed to amultart + tenergy. I had difficulties doing push, block, and return serve with satisfactory confidence. but I just kept at it. a couple of weeks later this has improved a lot. the problem was not the equipment really, it was me who made the mistakes in push, block, and return serve. part of it was that I was not used to the equipment and part of it was that I suck as a player, so I make mistakes often. actually I'm glad I spend my time mastering this equipment that has a lot of potential instead of staying with a 5ply and h3 and pips. yes, I make less mistakes with h3 (in the short game) but the overall potential I see it as much less than my amultiti. Edited by puppy412 - 12/04/2013 at 9:58am |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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I dont think its a question of thinking if I move to a faster set up and at first the shots dont come off perfectly then its end of story. You should have a feeling about it. You obviously felt that it was something you could handle, and good for you that you did. But sometimes its the case that that your gut tells you that a setup is just wrong for you as happened with Andy.H., then its time to rethink. BTW I like the way you take responsibility, thats a quality that will take you far Edited by pingpongpaddy - 12/04/2013 at 10:03am |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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puppy412
Silver Member Joined: 03/25/2013 Location: houston Status: Offline Points: 686 |
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well yes but I never really had the feeling like something was uncontrollable, no matter what I used or what my level was at the time.... I remember years ago a guy gave me his kreanga carbon + bryce with speed glue both sides and I thought it was the greatest setup in the world if something felt uncontrollable to me it was just me that was not precise enough and I needed to get better, not the equipment. I think it's a matter of perception, you may see it as though the equipment sucks or you may see it as though you suck and you need to improve your touch. Edited by puppy412 - 12/04/2013 at 10:10am |
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pandasashi
Member Joined: 11/30/2013 Location: ottawa Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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do 1ply hinokis split that easily/often?
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Yes. And for beginners who may swing at all kinds of balls, the problem is worse.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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Its always a risk, and its a complete break, so you need a replacement immediately if you are a tournament player. I own a 10 year old KTS thats still good,but I have collided with a doubles partner and broken one in a month, I lost a 5 year old Darker the other day when somebody sat on it. With 1 ply either its good, or its broke, no in between |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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andy.h
Member Joined: 05/23/2012 Location: New York, USA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
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I though tacky rubbers are very sensitive to incoming spin, aren't they? If they are - then how getting tackiness chop will help me with service receive, pushing and blocking? Or you mean that if I master those three with such a sensitive rubber then I can do it well with any other rubber? |
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pandasashi
Member Joined: 11/30/2013 Location: ottawa Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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wow.. really?! they can break just by hitting a ping pong ball? i can understand if it breaks when you bang it or sit on it but just by playing too? thats wild
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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Tackiness chop 1.5 is quite slow, so even though its very spinny the overall effect is of very good control. Tackiness Drive, on the other hand would have less control, as indeed would sriver. I mentioned Tackiness chop 1.5 because coupled with Sriver on the fh you get a complete experience in terms of one attacking rubber and one control rubber. But as long as you understand the principle feel free to try your own solution. Edited by pingpongpaddy - 12/04/2013 at 11:01am |
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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andy.h
Member Joined: 05/23/2012 Location: New York, USA Status: Offline Points: 85 |
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Ok, that's fair. But now let me ask you this: there's bunch of hype on this forum about thin rubbers and some mystical "bottom out" effect which I don't really know what that is. People claim that they "hit through" 2.0 rubbers easily. Wouldn't that "bottom out" effect be even more pronounced on 1.5 rubber?
Edited by andy.h - 12/04/2013 at 12:08pm |
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puppy412
Silver Member Joined: 03/25/2013 Location: houston Status: Offline Points: 686 |
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dude, just get a schlager carbon + tenergy 05 max both sides.... then turn into a jet, bomb the russians, crash into the sun and youre dead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NisCkxU544c Edited by puppy412 - 12/04/2013 at 12:15pm |
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Krantz
Super Member Joined: 05/14/2009 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 276 |
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If you can impart spin easily then your control in all but the most passive shots also increase noticeably - so I would say that new ESN rubbers are generally worth recommendation here despite being pretty fast. The blade is a somewhat different kettle of fish though, because it usually become more difficult to control the faster you go, so going over the board here might be detrimental to developing players. I remember back in the old days it was a must for an aspiring junior to speed-glue his rubbers as soon as imaginable for any progression - precisely because it was increasing both his speed AND control at the same time. |
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