Was this kid's technique really wrong

OK, this has been discussed a bit on another forum, but:

Edited by slevin - 10/28/2013 at 1:07pm

He's not really critiquing his technique, per say, but helping refine some timing/weight distribution issues.

slevin wrote: The coach is quite a high level guy but was this kid's technique wrong enough to deserve an amendment?

The kid probably came to the Werner Schlager to learn how to be a pro. That's what Schlager was showing him. If they were playing at full speed, the FH technique he was doing recovered too slow to get back to backhand in time to make an active shot again.

ZApenholder wrote: IMO, kids need to learn all movements options, and they can decide when to use what.

LOL. Schlager is trying to teach his anomalous fh technique to the poor kid. Schlager does not use his torso, only the arm. But this is something that can work only for him. The kid already has good classic technique, ZJK style.

I guess if a world champion gives you advise - best thing to do is to "listen" and "write it down"!

jrscatman wrote: I guess if a world champion gives you advise - best thing to do is to "listen" and "write it down"!

Yep.
...............................................

Jay Turberville

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The "one-one" exercise is kind of an "extreme" situation, where one can easily learn the importance of using the body weight for the stroke.

In the real game it is very important to read the opponent- as you say- to apply this technic as good as possible. If i have time to, i apply it. If i have less time (or a ball is going to the same corner again), then you step (swing your body weight from your left leg after your VH) again back to the same corner (weight on your right leg) and step again back to your left leg (body weight transfers to the left while hitting the ball) again.

The important physics principle behind it is the pendulum. Everybody knows, that it is very energy efficient to swing a pendulum. And it is much easier to alter the direction of a pendulum (here the center my body weight in doing steps from my left leg to my right leg and so on) than to accelerate a pendulum (here my body) and stop it and accelerate and stop it and again and again.

This is the trick how good players play almost always a powerful stroke despite in really difficult position. The pendulum is swinging. Always try to include the stroke in the direction of the swing (step). Then you play efficient, powerful, quick.

Because in modern tabletennis it is rare to get the ball in the same corner again (the only situation where i have to use energy to force my body weight in the exact opposite direction- worst situation) it is the most common and efficient footwork technic.



regards,

Werner

ZApenholder wrote: puppy412 wrote: schlager's style is impressive, he barely moves and his shots have so much power. he could keep on doing that exercise for half an hour. compare this to the chinese style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7KuF67wlwI their style is more mainstream but after doing this for 3 minutes you are already quite tired. actually what schlager tells you not to do (jump) is the first thing the chinese coach tells you to do in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU9ThmrBNFY With all due respect, I think you are complety wrong regarding those 2 videos. Both Schalger and those 2 videos are talking about the same thing

I'm glad I can see a difference where you see the same thing

wturber wrote: seguso wrote: LOL. Schlager is trying to teach his anomalous fh technique to the poor kid. Schlager does not use his torso, only the arm. But this is something that can work only for him. The kid already has good classic technique, ZJK style. Schlager's initial comment from the about.com discussion where this was hashed out. "Hello TT-friends, First of all, it surprises me that nobody asks the important questions. Because, without an answer to that question, any comment is of little value. So: Q: So, what is the idea behind my advice? A: To sharpen the mind for using the body weight for all strokes more consciously. Q: Why to use the bodyweight for all strokes as much as possible (and important: when necessary)? A: To decrease the power necessary (for the stroke) from other body parts (lower-, upper arm, shoulder) Q: Why shouldn´t i play only out of the arm/shoulder? A: You have to move anyway, so it would be clever to use huge part of the energy the body needs for moving for the stroke itself. Also the less power you use out of the arm/shoulder (not enough for really strong shots anyway and power quickly decreases), the more often and more precise you can hit if you reduce the power used by the arm/shoulder. Q: I teach my students to stand narrow. is it good or bad? A: The more wide they stand, the more body weight they can shift each stroke and the stronger a stroke can be played. The player who stands narrow often starts to jump instead of just making a step. And while jumping it is obviously quite difficult to alter the direction if the ball is played in the "wrong" direction. Changing the direction of a step (one leg always in contact with the floor) is possible anytime, when necessary. Also jumping is a bigger change in height, so control of point of contact with the ball is going to be more difficult. I would suggest therefore a more wide stand. Q: Why else is it necessary to optimize the use of my energy for hitting the ball? A: Because sooner or later i will have troubles to follow the speed of the game if i do not use the time for the positioning of my body with the time for hitting the ball. This is actually the biggest problem in the transition from youth/junior to the adult level of the game.  Q: So TT is basically a search for the most efficient use of body energy for a sequence of moving and hitting a 40mm ball... A: exactly ;) Q: Don Olsen said, you are nuts. Is this true? A: Well. I don´t know. But i usually do explain why i have an opinion. And i would be more than happy to hear his reason for calling me nuts... regards, Werner"

Thanks for posting this.  now I need to think deeply about it and see if I can feel what he is saying next time I play so that I can then figure out a way to train it.

Baal wrote: Thanks for posting this.  now I need to think deeply about it and see if I can feel what he is saying next time I play so that I can then figure out a way to train it.

It took me a while to realise what I was taught and what I saw and the differences, especailly since I started coaching last year I started to put the puzzle together and saw the lack of some foundation and for me to decide on focusing on footwork movements for a long time with my students.

I didn't get any coaching course, so my knowledge comes from memories as a student before.
At times I would chat to some senior coaches and learn from them.
When I was a student, I didn't understand the meanins of why I learnt this or that, but then when I became a coach, I realise what the students are missing.

What Schalger is commenting here, I believe is coming from Chinese style of footwork movement.
So i'm hoping to give you my take on Schalgers explaination, and hopefully it will be clearly to you. Please do let me know if it makes sense and works

1) Normal FH action is a steady, in the same position, in the same radius, rotation movement. It is fine for FH to FH rally, or far from table play, however for close to the table play, players will be in trouble by poor movement. So Normal is "first" kind of movement.

2) This is movement to the left. Where the main focus is that once the shot is completed, the entire body weight is landed onto the left feet (right hander). The purpose is that the weight is now on the left side of your body/foot, and if you wish to continue on the left side, it will be much faster. Another reason for this is if the ball comes too close to your body, your left feet must move out to give you space for a kind of "inside out" shot.

3) This is movement to the right, same is number 2, and it is to bring more weight behind the ball and to use body weight to help cover a far reach shot and to still add power into what normally will be a soft return. This is also effective if your next action is going towards the right, as your body weight is already leaning on the right foot.

Here is a bit of 2 in the front (moving left), and 3.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=205933749569855

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=205954799567750
My goal is for her to land onto right foot and continue from there.
However the FH to BH transition is different than OP video (focusing on bringing to left only).
This transition is to shoot your body out from right feet, to land onto left feet and conduct the stroke in one movement.

I don't think I have a video simliar to OP, about incorporating 2 and BH, but the theory is all the same.

So Schalger is talking about weight transfer, and using the last part of your transfer to be the "new take off position", than oppose to compelete, go back to ready then start. Thus is whole point is move in 1 motion, and don't do extra moves, to save time and can even get more power.

PS Cheyenne just came back from exams, so she had no TT in 5 weeks so that was her first session (aka very rusty)





Edited by ZApenholder - 10/28/2013 at 6:18pm

ZApenholder wrote: Puppy412, I still believe what Schalager is saying is the same as what Chinese footwork fundementals is about. See my explantion to Baal. I personally see no differents. Regarding Schalger walking....I walk too when demotrating to my students. I don't have luxtury of practice partners to demo for me

well I tried my best....

ZApenholder wrote: Puppy412, I still believe what Schalager is saying is the same as what Chinese footwork fundementals is about. See my explantion to Baal. I personally see no differents. Regarding Schalger walking....I walk too when demotrating to my students. I don't have luxtury of practice partners to demo for me

Note that the two drills are different and that the target "audience" is perhaps different as well.

I think Schlager is emphasizing weight transfer and how to use energy efficiently. The Chinese coach is emphasizing keeping your feet moving.  Neither necessarily excludes or contradicts the other.  It doesn't have to be "either or."

so zap, what kind of footwork is the kid doing and why did ws correct him?
or you disagree with ws?

There may be different reasons for this advice at that time

In my opinion, the coach's technique adjustment was inappropriate for the kid due to his size.