Was this kid's technique really wrong

what calls my attention is how fast the kid has to move and how slow ws moves and yet the resulting shots are similar

puppy412 wrote: what calls my attention is how fast the kid has to move and how slow ws moves and yet the resulting shots are similar

You should be looking at the feet, not the upper body to see the differences.

ZApenholder wrote: puppy412 wrote: what calls my attention is how fast the kid has to move and how slow ws moves and yet the resulting shots are similar You should be looking at the feet, not the upper body to see the differences.

yep ws barely moves feet.

kid moves so much and so fast that you go WOW!!!
but the resulting shot is the same from both.

actually this happened once to me while training.
this regular guy was training and seemed like ok but was missing some balls.
then coach came and said "its easy!" and he moved like ws, one step at a time and slow, but for some reason he was making the same or better shots than the other guy who seemed to be moving faster and putting more energy into it.


Edited by puppy412 - 10/28/2013 at 10:39pm

puppy412 wrote: ZApenholder wrote: puppy412 wrote: what calls my attention is how fast the kid has to move and how slow ws moves and yet the resulting shots are similar You should be looking at the feet, not the upper body to see the differences. yep ws barely moves feet. kid moves so much and so fast that you go WOW!!! but the resulting shot is the same from both. actually this happened once to me while training. this regular guy was training and seemed like ok but was missing some balls. then coach came and said "its easy!" and he moved like ws, one step at a time and slow, but for some reason he was making the same or better shots than the other guy who seemed to be moving faster and putting more energy into it.

I guess I can only tell you what I read from the boys body.

The boy, when he finish FH stroke, about 60 to 80% of his weight is on the right half of his body and that is a problem, he will have continuating problems as his right to left shift is too slow for his age already.

WS is tellnig him to skip the pause and go straight to left feet to take off with BH shot, thus is why a lot of people in this thread is saying one movement, or transfer weight into left feet during the stroke (look at how left feet lands and takes off for BH shot).

I think you better come to me for a few coaching sessions. Clearly it is difficult to teach you have the internet.

puppy412 wrote: what calls my attention is how fast the kid has to move and how slow ws moves and yet the resulting shots are similar

Hes teaching the kid to use weight transfer to incorporate movement into the stroke. Its kind of a way of being more efficient with your strokes, if you know or can predict where the ball is going to go. 

APW46 wrote: His weight is going on to his right foot as he strikes the ball, and in one instance just after. Its a regular drill so he knows where the ball is going and its always beneficial to be in position ahead of time and push towards where you are going, Same on the b/hand, if you can get your left leg across and behind the ball before you strike you are in good shape. Its a small timing adjustment that's all.

Yes, it's a small timing adjustment.  Also, on the stroke, I have sort of the same problem as the kid (well, maybe more ), there is still so much energy on the stroke after contact, and this is a waste energy.  Look at WS's stroke, it's so smooth and efficient.

That is also what I have always liked about Schlager.  Everything is so economical, and he makes it look simple.

Hm... My question is, would you do what Schlager did, if it was a RANDOM 2 point drill?

collins.latag wrote: LUCKYLOOP wrote: In my opinion, the coach's technique adjustment was inappropriate for the kid due to his size. Size does not matter. Its technique. Its not like the kid is a beginner or is just an intermediate player in the first place. Besides cutting down on the steps gives the kid more time to fluidly hit the balls rather than that of pausing on each shot.

 

mhnh007 wrote: ZingyDNA wrote: Hm... My question is, would you do what Schlager did, if it was a RANDOM 2 point drill? Yes.  You always want to get back to the neutral stand.

I must be missing something here as I thought that was what the kid was doing? Schlager's recovery from his FH is the backswing for his BH and vice versa, which is obvious much more efficient but you need the incoming balls alternate between FH and BH...

APW46 wrote: puppy412 wrote: this is the biggest secret in table tennis and what will catapult your game to the next level. it's not about how good you loop or the quality of your shots. it's about how good you can read what the other guy's gonna do, thus being there earlier. Its not a secret, its just that many are ignorant of its importance because they are obsessed with technique.

to me it was a sort of mystical revelation.
going from not being able to block a ball to being able to block 5 in a row just by realizing that all I had to do was put all my attention in how the other guy was going to hit the ball before he actually hit it.
this I'm talking in matches, not in training.

as for where the tendency to stop a split second after each stroke comes from, I think it comes from the fact that when you begin to play you never really know whether your ball will land on the other side of the table and whether the other guy will hit it.
so you hit ball and stay a milisecond checking if stroke was good.
schlager clearly has a lot of confidence his shots will land so he starts moving to the other side before hitting


Edited by puppy412 - 10/29/2013 at 8:49pm

puppy412 wrote: APW46 wrote: puppy412 wrote: this is the biggest secret in table tennis and what will catapult your game to the next level. it's not about how good you loop or the quality of your shots. it's about how good you can read what the other guy's gonna do, thus being there earlier. Its not a secret, its just that many are ignorant of its importance because they are obsessed with technique. to me it was a sort of mystical revelation. going from not being able to block a ball to being able to block 5 in a row just by realizing that all I had to do was put all my attention in how the other guy was going to hit the ball before he actually hit it. this I'm talking in matches, not in training. as for where the tendency to stop a split second after each stroke comes from, I think it comes from the fact that when you begin to play you never really know whether your ball will land on the other side of the table and whether the other guy will hit it. so you hit ball and stay a milisecond checking if stroke was good. schlager clearly has a lot of confidence his shots will land so he starts moving to the other side before hitting

beeray1 wrote: puppy412 wrote: APW46 wrote: puppy412 wrote: this is the biggest secret in table tennis and what will catapult your game to the next level. it's not about how good you loop or the quality of your shots. it's about how good you can read what the other guy's gonna do, thus being there earlier. Its not a secret, its just that many are ignorant of its importance because they are obsessed with technique. to me it was a sort of mystical revelation. going from not being able to block a ball to being able to block 5 in a row just by realizing that all I had to do was put all my attention in how the other guy was going to hit the ball before he actually hit it. this I'm talking in matches, not in training. as for where the tendency to stop a split second after each stroke comes from, I think it comes from the fact that when you begin to play you never really know whether your ball will land on the other side of the table and whether the other guy will hit it. so you hit ball and stay a milisecond checking if stroke was good. schlager clearly has a lot of confidence his shots will land so he starts moving to the other side before hitting I know exactly what you mean! I fall victim to it so badly- I am always saying to myself "Stop watching your shot!" because sometimes I catch myself checking to make sure it landed, or if I make a really awesome shot or go around the net or whatever, I'll stand there and admire it instead of getting ready for the next shot.  It's a matter of no practice.  You can't simply have the mentality that Wiggy mentioned above without practicing to it. While some people obsess over technique, some people are just insecure about it because they don't practice. I keep waiting for an "aha" moment, but it won't happen if I can't practice all the crap out of my head. If I do multi ball for a couple times in a week, I'll ALWAYS play better because I absolutely won't think about how I'm hitting my shot, and I'll just play it and move on, forming the point and using my sense at the table comfortably.  When I go a couple weeks without playing, then my club is closed here and there, and I play once or twice in a month, I can't simply keep that mentality up, and I constantly question what I'm doing. Unless I start to play retrieve on everything, I'm going to miss my shots out of sheer lack of confidence- and confidence comes with practice.

actually the revelation was not related to that split second of hesitation, that goes away with lots of training.

the revelation was related to what we really pay attention to when we play.

coaches always tell you that you need to move your legs better,
that you need to move your arm like this, like that,
that you need to hit the ball here,
do this movement,
correct this, correct that, etc.

so the result is a player completely absorbed by himself, going crazy by all the mistakes he makes, thinking it all depends on him.
I was this type of player long time, trying to attack and loop many balls, getting annoyed by all the mistakes I was making, thinking it was all my fault.
so I was completely self absorbed.
I was losing to guys that were even with me 3-1, 3-2, sometimes also winning.

one day I suddenly changed.
I just stood there standing and instead of getting absorbed by all my loops and my flaws and my technique I just stood there still and simply started looking at the body language of the other guy when he was hitting the ball.
to my surprise, most times I was able to tell where the ball was going so I simply moved a bit and I was there right on time to hit the next ball.

so this change of focus from my loops and my stuff to what the other guy was gonna do allowed me to beat 3-0 guys who before were giving me a hard time.
and the strangest part, I was barely moving.
I would just look at the other guy and say "ok the ball is probably going here", move there put the paddle and that was eat.
I wasn't even looping, just blocking.

I think players like he zhi wen or kenta matsudaira have perfected this, that's why they are always there on time.
same with schlager and his advice.
why does he tell the kid to move earlier to next shot?
because that's what he does when he plays.
and how can he do that? it's a mixture between guessing and reading body language of the opponent.
but the thing is no coach taught them to do that, you either have that capability of looking and identifying or you don't.


Edited by puppy412 - 10/31/2013 at 1:45pm

APW46 wrote: puppy412 wrote: why does he tell the kid to move earlier to next shot? because that's what he does when he plays. and how can he do that? it's a mixture between guessing and reading body language of the opponent. but the thing is no coach taught them to do that, you either have that capability of looking and identifying or you don't. The last statement is wrong, most have the capability to observe the intentions of their opponent, but some degree of stroke proficiency and footwork is required before the brain is free enough to cope. It can be taught, I teach it with success, the first part is identifying that there is another way to play from what the majority of lower level players perceive to be what happens at higher levels than they have attained.