Was this kid's technique really wrong

slevin wrote: Question for the high-level players / coaches / analysts on this forum: do other pros (the Chinese in particular) move like Schlager shows here?

I think you focus on form while Schlager was focused on function.

slevin wrote: Question for the high-level players / coaches / analysts on this forum: do other pros (the Chinese in particular) move like Schlager shows here?

tt4me wrote: collins.latag wrote: LUCKYLOOP wrote: In my opinion, the coach's technique adjustment was inappropriate for the kid due to his size.   Size does not matter. Its technique. Its not like the kid is a beginner or is just an intermediate player in the first place. Besides cutting down on the steps gives the kid more time to fluidly hit the balls rather than that of pausing on each shot. Size makes a difference.   I think the little kid was doing well.  I know Schlager's intentions were good and his motion was much smoother but the little kid will not be able to move as far in one step.  If the little kid was bigger it would be different. The little kid was doing well in my opinion but if he is paying Schlager for instructions then he needs to learn the fine points even if he can't implement them now.  However,  I personally wouldn't go to Schlager to tell me how to step.  I can figure that out myself.  There are more important things to learn.  One can learn how to step using drills with a robot.  Then it is like learning the dance steps for each drill.  If only the opponents would return ball like a drill.

APW46 wrote: slevin wrote: Question for the high-level players / coaches / analysts on this forum: do other pros (the Chinese in particular) move like Schlager shows here?  why do you consider that to be important?

The assumption here is that if it is indeed more effective, we should see it used more by the high level players (who have quality think tanks behind them).

As a relative TT layman / novice (and an adult unlike that kid), I find moving like Schlager makes the FH - BH drill a lot easier. However, that is because in the (non-random) drill, I can get to the right spot before the ball gets there (as he shows in the video). Sure, if could use it in a real game if I have the time. However, for preparation for in game pressure situations, I find practicing what the kid does to be more useful: because I'm not quite there pre-shot, I need that additional step forward (post-shot) to regain balance and minimize recovery time. You can see this utilized in the Killerspin footwork video as well as in the ubiquitous Chinese footwork videos.

All I can say is that if Werner Schlager had suggestions for me as to how to play or move better, I would do everything I could possibly do to follow and implement his advice. He is one of the most efficient players who have ever lived.  On this video, we saw one snippet of his coaching.  I suspect there is more context to what we saw.  I think it could be argued that even for his size, the little guy's footwork was more complex than necessary for what was happening. 

Baal wrote: All I can say is that if Werner Schlager had suggestions for me as to how to play or move better, I would do everything I could possibly do to follow and implement his advice. He is one of the most efficient players who have ever lived.  On this video, we saw one snippet of his coaching.  I suspect there is more context to what we saw.  I think it could be argued that even for his size, the little guy's footwork was more complex than necessary for what was happening.

ha, he's lost that unnecessary ministep between strokes which meant he was striking the ball later in the tempo. 

To simplify what Schlager is saying, there is no need for that ministep the kid was putting in when he corrected him because it was not needed, if he was fed two successive f/hand balls it would be needed to transfer weight back to his right foot for the f/hand, and left foot for his b/hand. Regular drills are used for different reasons depending on the objective and standard of the player, at lower levels just to groove strokes, but this kid is past that stage. If in a match situation the kid reads where his opponent is playing, putting in an extra step will lose him time getting behind the ball to play the stroke as he flows into his next shot.

Ashes wrote: I would say that the chinese and Schalger are talking about the same thing. It's all about inertia control and movement effectiveness. Schlager tells the kid to flow instead of move -> stop -> move -> stop. The chinese say the same thing - stay in motion. It doesn't matter if you step or make little jumps as long as you move (sideways/front-back). Stop motion is the main reason the europeans can't really compete with the chinese.  I would like to hear your opinions with regard to these two multiball videos:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIZa76o1qNc - ovtcharov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VHKF5pPJrs - ma long Sure Ovtcharov hits faster but he is so stiff compared to Ma Long.

yes it seems schlager  was actually correcting the mini jumps in the middle.
which seems fine because they are unnecessary movement.
if you think about his analogy with a pendulum, any movement where you go up and down in the middle without hitting the ball is actually destructing the pendulum. a little jump could be seen as a movement that takes you up and down.
that's why he suggests a step, one leg at a time.

if you look at the coach here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7KuF67wlwI
at 0:21 he's actually doing something very similar to what the kid was doing.
which includes move both legs at same time and small jumps in the middle.
actually what creates a small jump is moving both legs at the same time.
whenever you are moving both legs at the same time you are making small jump.
whenever you are not moving both legs at the same time you are not making a small jump.
regardless of how slow or fast you move.


Edited by puppy412 - 11/01/2013 at 11:35am

Ashes wrote: I would say that the chinese and Schalger are talking about the same thing. It's all about inertia control and movement effectiveness. Schlager tells the kid to flow instead of move -> stop -> move -> stop. The chinese say the same thing - stay in motion. It doesn't matter if you step or make little jumps as long as you move (sideways/front-back). Stop motion is the main reason the europeans can't really compete with the chinese.  I would like to hear your opinions with regard to these two multiball videos:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIZa76o1qNc - ovtcharov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VHKF5pPJrs - ma long Sure Ovtcharov hits faster but he is so stiff compared to Ma Long.

tt4me wrote: collins.latag wrote: It does make a difference, I agree... but I reckon you would not say a match up is unfair in table tennis because the opponent is taller or younger/older than you No but this is not about a match. There are difference techniques for each size. ... yes there are things you could learn by yourself, but with out direction do you really think a beginner That kid is no beginner. I don't think a beginner would think about such things as efficient and smooth foot work.  A beginner that does any foot work is doing well. Like I said above, there are more important things to get right. [quote]  would know how to get really good without instruction from someone who knows the sport better? formal or informal, direct or indirect.

In the second video, the kid looks so much more smooth*.  It is now clear what WS was trying to get him to do -- before and after.  So is this the best way for the little boy?  It sure looks like it.

Thanks for posting it fiveplyian!  ZAP, this is a very interesting thread.

* Eric Owens used to always tell me to try to move fast but like you have a class of water balanced on your head. I don't have access to any world champions where I live, so I try to follow advice given to me by national champions instead.  Fortunately for me, there have been some of those in my city, and they have all been really generous with their time and knowledge, not just for me, but lots of other players who live in Houston.

Baal,
Yeah, I didn't know this thread can become so interesting.
IMO, minor changes (but need to get used to it), can help every player become much better (by moving more smoother)

But I think, not many people understand this, including spending time in this thread.

Puppy,
Not sure what you are on about. Good luck with you trying to figure it out.
I can say, Schalger is World Champion, Boy is moving better. And yeah, its a reason to be dancing.

PS, I had Chinese style coaching, and I can tell you what I saw in those videos is the same as how I was taugh, same as what those Chinese coaches are saying and same as how I am teaching my students!


Edited by ZApenholder - 11/01/2013 at 1:27pm

slevin wrote: ZApenholder wrote: Yeah, I didn't know this thread can become so interesting. Interesting thread indeed!

What's also so interesting is that some people will doubt a world champion.

But what is more interesting for me is that European footwork is becoming more Chinese than I thought. WS movement is not a normal European one.
Or maybe I am wrong (I have been away for 6 years until end of 2011).

Tommy16 wrote: Okay, you as you said the kid is not a beginner. So what do you think that is more important than learn how to move correctly?