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why did lebesson complain?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 1:40pm
What a fascinating conversation, I feel honored to belong to a community that enlightens the world with its knowledge and wisdom, because it is obvious to me that any independent observer would see this thread as part of the drive towards table tennis success. Let's stand proud for who we are!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 1:53pm
And also a thread that promotes the world-wide propagation of Rule 88!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Quote from what I said: I  took this to mean there was no meaningful disturbance so the point plays on - I have stated that it is either a point for Japan or France depending on whether there was a disturbance but not a let, so this not contrary to what I said. 

Pongfu, I suspect you might have been referring to what Deams statement of what his ref friend said but if you follow the logic of what I said above, then the info given is  not necessary contrary to "or France" just not clear if it could be the case.  

I remember the last time that I pointed out that you sometimes seem not to argue in good faith and you took offense.  It might not be apparent to you, but your behavior here is the kind of thing I am talking about.  You are trying to use abstruse logic to argue against a commonsense interpretation of what you wrote. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Quote from what I said: I  took this to mean there was no meaningful disturbance so the point plays on - I have stated that it is either a point for Japan or France depending on whether there was a disturbance but not a let, so this not contrary to what I said. 

Pongfu, I suspect you might have been referring to what Deams statement of what his ref friend said but if you follow the logic of what I said above, then the info given is  not necessary contrary to "or France" just not clear if it could be the case.  

I remember the last time that I pointed out that you sometimes seem not to argue in good faith and you took offense.  It might not be apparent to you, but your behavior here is the kind of thing I am talking about.  You are trying to use abstruse logic to argue against a commonsense interpretation of what you wrote. 
NL always lurking in the background  and look for chance to come back years (exaggeration) on some issue -  this is what makes this forum great (not).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

What a fascinating conversation, I feel honored to belong to a community that enlightens the world with its knowledge and wisdom, because it is obvious to me that any independent observer would see this thread as part of the drive towards table tennis success. Let's stand proud for who we are!
  I think you are being sarcastique - sometime I cannot tell 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Quote from what I said: I  took this to mean there was no meaningful disturbance so the point plays on - I have stated that it is either a point for Japan or France depending on whether there was a disturbance but not a let, so this not contrary to what I said. 

Pongfu, I suspect you might have been referring to what Deams statement of what his ref friend said but if you follow the logic of what I said above, then the info given is  not necessary contrary to "or France" just not clear if it could be the case.  

I remember the last time that I pointed out that you sometimes seem not to argue in good faith and you took offense.  It might not be apparent to you, but your behavior here is the kind of thing I am talking about.  You are trying to use abstruse logic to argue against a commonsense interpretation of what you wrote. 
BTW I know what I wrote - and are you saying you are in better position to judge whether something I said is in good faith?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

And also a thread that promotes the world-wide propagation of Rule 88!
oh no, the rule 88 is so abstruse! (I learned a new word today lol and couldn't wait to place it somewhere).

edit: I was on my way to actually remember what rule 88 is but I encountered a road block, several of them, searching for "the rules" gives too many hits to this thread! I am chasing my tail; not to worry, I am in good company!

edit: found it! how funny, the rule 88 doesn't exist, just like the rule that says what to do when a gentle girl says sorry in the middle of the point.

BTW I was with lebesson because many times I gave my point away for that same reason and I did not know better but I am logically with pongfu now: if it's an issue (in this case Lebesson protests but should he?), the best answer is a let. Let's note that from a "living-together-in-peace-while-playing-ping-pong" perspective, it's also the best answer. The problem is the context is professional table tennis, they make a living, every point counts, it's not fun, it's business, it's war, it's "you or me."


Edited by stiltt - 11/19/2019 at 3:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 3:17pm
Rule 88 is zen, like the sound of one hand clapping.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

from Pongfu:I agree with the "Japan" part, but once you added "or France", that *is* contrary to what you've cited.  In fact deams59 has been pretty adamant throughout the thread that it cannot be a point for France (and I agree).

to Pongfu, please be specific on what I have cited that is contrary to "or France".  

With that being said I now think in high probability the way the handbook is written, a vocal disturbance requires a warning before a point penalty.  Additional referrals to the handbook that could shed any light on speaking during rallies will be welcomed. 

Here's what you cited from deams59:
"I spoke to an international umpire and referee and his opinion, which was only based on my description of the events, was that the point should have been awarded Japan"
*You* added "or France" which is contrary to his point (that it cannot be France's point according to the rules).

Logically, saying that I am going to France is the same as I am going to France or Germany.   Of course, this is not the common sense meaning but tom is arguing in good faith using formal logic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Rule 88 is zen, like the sound of one hand clapping.

I await your book, Zen and the Art of Table Tennis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 3:43pm
zen has got to be about zero something; like zero anger, zero bullshit. Moto Zéro has electric bikes out, no maintenance! Or almost not. Far less for sure, that has got to be zen.
Moto zéro, back pack with a paddle, do we need more?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mytoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 6:05pm
Why is this even å discussion? Point to Japan, or maybe a let. Read chapter2 and 3. No need for clarification, the rule is clear. And: this situation (disturbance on incoming ball) is different from the situation in the other thread. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Rule 88 is zen, like the sound of one hand clapping.

I await your book, Zen and the Art of Table Tennis.

It is all in The Rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeanPhillippe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2019 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

tell me I am wrong.   No let for disturbances or interruptions within control of the players once the rally has started if the rules are applied 
This depends on the interpretation by the umpire of what constitutes a disturbance. Even though I don't think HH saying sorry here is enough of a disturbance, but a liberal interpretation by the umpire could think so and since that's beyond Lebesson's control, the umpire could call a let, but certainly not give the point outright to France (which is exactly what he did). Usually, the disturbance is a ball coming into the court.
I didn't mean Lebesson, the disturbance (whether penalty or not) would have been caused by HH which could not be interpreted as beyond her control, so either penalty or no penalty but no let.  Ball coming into court is beyond their control so a let.
I think we both are saying that HH is the one to have created the "disturbance" (if in fact that actually transpired).  But the player that may have been negatively affected was Lebesson.  The rule in question is:
2.9.1 The rally shall be a let:
2.9.1.3 if failure to make a service or a return or otherwise to comply with the Laws is due to a disturbance outside the control of the player;
The player who fails here is Lebesson (actually he made a return, just not a good one).  The disturbance (HH saying sorry) is outside the control of the player (Lebesson).  So I think technically, the umpire could call a let if he deemed HH saying sorry is worthy of being called a "disturbance".

You very wrong.  Hina Hayata create disturbing using purposely. I am sorry.
Why was Lebasson the bad man , I am not understanding
Only Hina must given at least 3 months suspendation by Australian Table Tennis 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 1:20am
Originally posted by JeanPhillippe JeanPhillippe wrote:

You very wrong.  Hina Hayata create disturbing using purposely. I am sorry.
Why was Lebasson the bad man , I am not understanding
Only Hina must given at least 3 months suspendation by Australian Table Tennis 


Lebesson, is that you? Hayata did it on purpose? DeadDead
Someone pls tell me not all French are like this...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 4:51am
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

Originally posted by JeanPhillippe JeanPhillippe wrote:

You very wrong.  Hina Hayata create disturbing using purposely. I am sorry.
Why was Lebasson the bad man , I am not understanding
Only Hina must given at least 3 months suspendation by Australian Table Tennis 


Lebesson, is that you? Hayata did it on purpose? DeadDead
Someone pls tell me not all French are like this...

He's joking LOL. Remember, WCQ was suspended for 3 months for misbehaving. But those pesky Australians.... trying to interfere even at an Austrian tournament LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 7:11am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Rule 88 is zen, like the sound of one hand clapping.

I await your book, Zen and the Art of Table Tennis.

Yes, it is actually a book (very short) with that name. Search on Amazon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 8:55am
Originally posted by JeanPhillippe JeanPhillippe wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

He's joking LOL.

No I am not giving jokes. Everyall here says Lebesson is bad. That upsetting me.

Hina first start problem by talking . But only Lebasson is made bad man by pepules here in this blog.
Oh wow... you were being serious.  You really think she deserves a 3 month suspension for saying "sorry" in a normal voice?  Wow... just.... wow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 9:55am
Hi,

Another element of perspective on this matter pertains to the definition and meaning of "disturbance."  That is, is a disturbance an objective event independent of the effect on the players, or is it a consequence of a player being "disturbed."

In this case with Lebesson, a behavioral option available to him was to not respond to the shot; to stop and not execute his stroke mechanism on the net ball, then turn to the umpire and argue his "disturbance."  One may argue that by executing his stroke mechanism, he was not disturbed, thus a disturbance did not occur.

From the detailed information provided in the exceptionally fine postings in this thread, had he done so, the umpire should have called a let.

In general, a disturbance is understood to be an objective event that is independent of the effect on the players.  When an invading ball enters the court, a let is automatically called completely irrespective of the effect of the invading ball on the players.

If this chain of logic supporting the consideration of the effect on the player as a determinant of the declaration of a "disturbance," is it then the case that table tennis has two forms, two varieties of disturbances, one disturbance variety an objective event judged independent on the effect on the players, and a second disturbance variety based upon a discernible effect on the players?

Thanks for the great posting! 
Advances in a field are best achieved by constructs that fully reflect the phenomena of interest and are rooted in a theory that specifies their determinants, mediating processes, and its effects.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 10:39am
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

Another element of perspective on this matter pertains to the definition and meaning of "disturbance."  That is, is a disturbance an objective event independent of the effect on the players, or is it a consequence of a player being "disturbed."

In this case with Lebesson, a behavioral option available to him was to not respond to the shot; to stop and not execute his stroke mechanism on the net ball, then turn to the umpire and argue his "disturbance."  One may argue that by executing his stroke mechanism, he was not disturbed, thus a disturbance did not occur.

From the detailed information provided in the exceptionally fine postings in this thread, had he done so, the umpire should have called a let.

In general, a disturbance is understood to be an objective event that is independent of the effect on the players.  When an invading ball enters the court, a let is automatically called completely irrespective of the effect of the invading ball on the players.

If this chain of logic supporting the consideration of the effect on the player as a determinant of the declaration of a "disturbance," is it then the case that table tennis has two forms, two varieties of disturbances, one disturbance variety an objective event judged independent on the effect on the players, and a second disturbance variety based upon a discernible effect on the players?

Thanks for the great posting! 
For me, I've had a number of times when I returned an edge or net with the opponent prematurely saying sorry.  I've always just played on sometimes winning sometimes losing, but never gave any thought to someone saying sorry as a disturbance.  To me, a normal voice sorry is all part of the game since it's pretty common on a net/edge.  I think BRS had a good point earlier in this thread:


Unless it's something egregious, I say play on.  But I can understand if an umpire views it as a disturbance (secondary form in your post) and decides to call a let.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 10:39am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by JeanPhillippe JeanPhillippe wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

He's joking LOL.

No I am not giving jokes. Everyall here says Lebesson is bad. That upsetting me.

Hina first start problem by talking . But only Lebasson is made bad man by pepules here in this blog.
Oh wow... you were being serious.  You really think she deserves a 3 month suspension for saying "sorry" in a normal voice?  Wow... just.... wow.
the spelling mistakes made in a few posts/threads look made by an american trying to look like a French writing bad English.  I'd bet on a banned member having fun. I am used to read English written by French people who learned it at school and that's not it at all. Besides, when we know that Google translate would do a far better job, suspicion strengthens.

Edited by stiltt - 11/20/2019 at 10:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 10:41am
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

Originally posted by JeanPhillippe JeanPhillippe wrote:

You very wrong.  Hina Hayata create disturbing using purposely. I am sorry.
Why was Lebasson the bad man , I am not understanding
Only Hina must given at least 3 months suspendation by Australian Table Tennis 


Lebesson, is that you? Hayata did it on purpose? DeadDead
Someone pls tell me not all French are like this...

regardless of what he said in his profile, he is not necessarily French
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 11:53am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

the spelling mistakes made in a few posts/threads look made by an american trying to look like a French writing bad English.  I'd bet on a banned member having fun. I am used to read English written by French people who learned it at school and that's not it at all. Besides, when we know that Google translate would do a far better job, suspicion strengthens.

And no Frenchman would spell "Phillippe" with two L. Also, the handle is surely an allusion to Philou Gatien, for those old enough to remember him.


Edited by amateur - 11/20/2019 at 11:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jolan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 12:11pm
It looks to me that there were no disturbance. Lebesson played the ball as good as he was able to and didn't seem "disturbed" at any moment of his motion. It's only when he realised that his ball was going to be killed by Harimoto that he started the argument. Hayata said "sorry" just because she genuinely thought the point was over and didn't mean to create any disturbance. The two japanese players didn't even bother giving the point to the french pair. Well done Japan, shame on Lebesson.
By the way, I am french...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 1:11pm
The sad part is he gets the bad rep but he lost anyway. Doing that right after winning his 1st pro tour title ever at the Belarus open is not very smart but in the heat of the moment, people can do such things. I won't say it reveals who they really are because it is not necessarily true, he may acknowledge he was an ass just like we all are sometimes, I know I am. 
My theory is he is shy with women, he likes Hina Hayata and wanted her attention but did not know how to proceed. He should take lessons from Sir Rich: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8zwIphm5r4
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

The sad part is he gets the bad rep but he lost anyway. Doing that right after winning his 1st pro tour title ever at the Belarus open is not very smart but in the heat of the moment, people can do such things. I won't say it reveals who they really are because it is not necessarily true, he may acknowledge he was an ass just like we all are sometimes, I know I am. 
My theory is he is shy with women, he likes Hina Hayata and wanted her attention but did not know how to proceed. He should take lessons from Sir Rich: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8zwIphm5r4

he didn't do anything wrong.

1- he thinks players should not talk during a point
2- hayata talks during a point
3- he complains

also you guys should stop thinking you are the center of the world.
most of the tt community around the world doesn't even know this forum exists.


Edited by pingpungpeng - 11/20/2019 at 1:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

The sad part is he gets the bad rep but he lost anyway. Doing that right after winning his 1st pro tour title ever at the Belarus open is not very smart but in the heat of the moment, people can do such things. I won't say it reveals who they really are because it is not necessarily true, he may acknowledge he was an ass just like we all are sometimes, I know I am. 
My theory is he is shy with women, he likes Hina Hayata and wanted her attention but did not know how to proceed. He should take lessons from Sir Rich: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8zwIphm5r4

he didn't do anything wrong.

1- he thinks players should not talk during a point
2- hayata talks during a point
3- he complains

also you guys should stop thinking you are the center of the world.
most of the tt community around the world doesn't even know this forum exists.
OK we'll do that, thank you for your guidance.

You don't make much sense though; 1st, thinking we are the center of the world is totally natural, it is due to the awareness of our mortal condition. Also, not knowing if aliens exist doesn't prevent us from trying to reach them, we even send them dvds with our galactic coordinates (which is dangerous if the Fermi paradox resolving dark forest theory is true).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2019 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Jolan Jolan wrote:

It looks to me that there were no disturbance. Lebesson played the ball as good as he was able to and didn't seem "disturbed" at any moment of his motion. It's only when he realised that his ball was going to be killed by Harimoto that he started the argument. Hayata said "sorry" just because she genuinely thought the point was over and didn't mean to create any disturbance. The two japanese players didn't even bother giving the point to the french pair. Well done Japan, shame on Lebesson.
By the way, I am french...


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Completely agree with you, Jean!
No doubt he is pretty good player, but here exactly in this situation he didn't acted well.
I could once again add only that - the shame must be separated between Emo and the fake Umpire.
At his place I will retire for a period.


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blahness View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/21/2019 at 7:42am
Lebesson was playing unfair by making a fuss about it. Hayata and Harimoto should have fought the call but I guess it's an unimportant tournament anyway... 

I still remember the ridiculous delayed let call in the WTTC women doubles...

Unfortunately it's a dog eat dog world. You gotta fight fire with fire and stand up for your own rights. There's just too many bullies in TT who need to get a taste of their own medicine. 
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FH: Hurricane 8
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pongfugrasshopper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/21/2019 at 8:04am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Lebesson was playing unfair by making a fuss about it. Hayata and Harimoto should have fought the call but I guess it's an unimportant tournament anyway... 

I still remember the ridiculous delayed let call in the WTTC women doubles...

Unfortunately it's a dog eat dog world. You gotta fight fire with fire and stand up for your own rights. There's just too many bullies in TT who need to get a taste of their own medicine. 
You could end up losing your focus if you spend too much time protesting (possibly to no avail). Japan was ahead still and I can understand not wanting to lose that momentum. 
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