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Would this theory work in TT?
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Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

I hope this is a little more obvious. It is obviously a more complicated motion in 3D but the principle holds imo. Also the importance of conservation is greater because the mass of racket and the amount of torque necessary are relatively large. That's why you see loopy strokes that conserve momentum.
V-Griper - I think in this clip Federer is in a practice warm up mode - he wouldn't be trying to generate extra power. As the Badminton coach said - pause/stop will add an additional 10% - 20%. You will only see players doing it for winners in match play. Not during warm ups. 

I agree in Tennis stopping the racquet on ground stroke would be hard because of the weight of the racquet. Although, I wondered about Del Potro - he seems to hold the racquet still for while....but haven't studied it.
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Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

So what we have here is a difference opinion as to when and where the swing starts. If you define the swing on your terms - there is no pause - if you define it on my terms - then there is a pause. I guess it's all about perspective.

Yes.

From my perspective I think of it as one continuous motion where I'm trying to recycle as much power as is possible under the constraints. 

So I would say that stroke starts with the acceleration at take back, then through a tight transition, like a slingshot orbit and then keeps accelerating to ball contact. 

Or you could just hit the damn ball!! 

This is just starting to get ridiculous.CryConfusedWacko LOL

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Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

I hope this is a little more obvious. It is obviously a more complicated motion in 3D but the principle holds imo. Also the importance of conservation is greater because the mass of racket and the amount of torque necessary are relatively large. That's why you see loopy strokes that conserve momentum.
V-Griper - I think in this clip Federer is in a practice warm up mode - he wouldn't be trying to generate extra power. As the Badminton coach said - pause/stop will add an additional 10% - 20%. You will only see players doing it for winners in match play. Not during warm ups. 

I agree in Tennis stopping the racquet on ground stroke would be hard because of the weight of the racquet. Although, I wondered about Del Potro - he seems to hold the racquet still for while....but haven't studied it.

Same thing.
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Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

So what we have here is a difference opinion as to when and where the swing starts. If you define the swing on your terms - there is no pause - if you define it on my terms - then there is a pause. I guess it's all about perspective.

Yes.

From my perspective I think of it as one continuous motion where I'm trying to recycle as much power as is possible under the constraints. 

So I would say that stroke starts with the acceleration at take back, then through a tight transition, like a slingshot orbit and then keeps accelerating to ball contact. 

Or you could just hit the damn ball!! 

This is just starting to get ridiculous.CryConfusedWacko LOL

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Originally posted by TTFrenzy TTFrenzy wrote:

Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

This is hopeless.  It would be best if this thread was deleted so it doesn't spread more myths.



Dude, both me and josepher replied to your questions saying the exact same things with different words (no pause doesnt ADD power, the backswing DOES because the muscles tense in the backswing pause and then contract to RELEASE the stored energy to the ball! simple as that!), we are just having a conversation expressing our opinions, why should the thread be deleted?

I have no problem to reconsider my thoughts, even though I am  sure that I am quite accurate (not 100% but I believe I got the case solved in its substance), I dont see any myths around, just opinions either true or false based on personal experience.

If you believe that what we are saying is false, you can express yourself using the laws of physics to convince us. That is what everybody here is doing I think, its pointless to argue just for the arguement or to prove something :)


You guys do understand that the badminton coach was talking about a pause or stop before starting the backswing - right?
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Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by TTFrenzy TTFrenzy wrote:

Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

This is hopeless.  It would be best if this thread was deleted so it doesn't spread more myths.



Dude, both me and josepher replied to your questions saying the exact same things with different words (no pause doesnt ADD power, the backswing DOES because the muscles tense in the backswing pause and then contract to RELEASE the stored energy to the ball! simple as that!), we are just having a conversation expressing our opinions, why should the thread be deleted?

I have no problem to reconsider my thoughts, even though I am  sure that I am quite accurate (not 100% but I believe I got the case solved in its substance), I dont see any myths around, just opinions either true or false based on personal experience.

If you believe that what we are saying is false, you can express yourself using the laws of physics to convince us. That is what everybody here is doing I think, its pointless to argue just for the arguement or to prove something :)


You guys do understand that the badminton coach was talking about a pause or stop before starting the backswing - right?

of course ! its more than obvious. we are talking about TT here where the recoil between two hits is much faster than badminton. The badminton coach though makes a mistake, the backswing is what adds the power, not the pause, pause helps correct timing and maximum energy release with minimum effort, so I suppose that he was trying to say something like that.

I havent played badminton to be 100% sure though 
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Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

The back swing is not necessary to generate power either.  I could jump up and down and generate power and that has nothing to do with a back swing or hitting a ball.

As I said before, you guys don't know the definition of power.  Power is the conversion of energy from one form to another.  I can jump up and down and for the most part the only result will be heat.
There is a lot of difference between power generated and power delivered.  The ratio of power delivered/power generated is called efficiency.  This is similar to the power at the engine and the power that is measured by a dynamometer at the wheel.

One does not extract energy or power from strokes or pauses.  You burn calories to generate power.

If you want to hit a ball or shuttle faster you simply need to swing faster so the impact speed is faster.
It can be done with a high acceleration over a short time or a lower acceleration over a longer time, it makes no difference.   The only thing that matters is the speed at impact.
About that conservation of angular momentum.  The paddle is not in orbit or rotating around something.
The paddle will not rotate around a elbow joint or should joint. The animations.
I am not interested in anybody's opinions, only facts and so far this thread has been thin on facts and very thick on made up bad information.



   

Well ok we have a real smartass here. Bravo my friend you knocked us all out . Im not gonna post the one and only definition of power but I will let you search for yourself. 

Obivously we are talking for the power energy or force or whatever you wanna call it to the BALL. We are not talking about the definition of POWER. So if you gonna play mr smartass, go chech some physics book and you will see that POWER = ENERGY PER ....

Total waste of time answering to douchebags like you, but anyway I tried to be friendly but it seems like we have a 14 yo kiddo here with libido issues.
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Originally posted by TTFrenzy TTFrenzy wrote:


of course ! its more than obvious. we are talking about TT here where the recoil between two hits is much faster than badminton. The badminton coach though makes a mistake, the backswing is what adds the power, not the pause, pause helps correct timing and maximum energy release with minimum effort, so I suppose that he was trying to say something like that.

I havent played badminton to be 100% sure though 


Well some of you have branched into talking about tennis and the pause or near pause near the end of the back-swing and seem to have traveled very far away from the original question. 

My guess is that English is not the coaches native language.  Also, people seem to have interpreted his saying that you should "stop" in order to generate more power into something more literal like "stopping generates more power" - which he didn't say.  If you want to get at the root of what the badminton coach was trying to explain, look at the videos of the "stopped" vs. "non-stopped" strokes. 

Also, the applicability of badminton and tennis techniques to TT will be limited by the fact that we typically do have much less time between contacts and by the fact that our rackets do not have long extensions like the rackets used in tennis and badminton.
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Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by TTFrenzy TTFrenzy wrote:


of course ! its more than obvious. we are talking about TT here where the recoil between two hits is much faster than badminton. The badminton coach though makes a mistake, the backswing is what adds the power, not the pause, pause helps correct timing and maximum energy release with minimum effort, so I suppose that he was trying to say something like that.

I havent played badminton to be 100% sure though 


Well some of you have branched into talking about tennis and the pause or near pause near the end of the back-swing and seem to have traveled very far away from the original question. 

My guess is that English is not the coaches native language.  Also, people seem to have interpreted his saying that you should "stop" in order to generate more power into something more literal like "stopping generates more power" - which he didn't say.  If you want to get at the root of what the badminton coach was trying to explain, look at the videos of the "stopped" vs. "non-stopped" strokes. 

Also, the applicability of badminton and tennis techniques to TT will be limited by the fact that we typically do have much less time between contacts and by the fact that our rackets do not have long extensions like the rackets used in tennis and badminton.
The reason I linked the tennis video was due to the fact - I felt the same principle was being used in Tennis. 

In principle the theory should work in all sports - I thought badminton and tennis with the larger racquets might be easier to visualize and see than TT with the smaller racquets and more compact swings.
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Well personally I understood, cause its obvious that the coach's english are not 100% accurate in what he is trying to explain, that the "stop" doesnt add power, I understood that the "stop" gives perfect timing, thus maximum energy explosion to the incoming ball, he is trying to say that we must hit the ball at the exact moment that it is in our "explosive range" of motion something like our body's "sweet spot"

Coach Li of tabletennismaster explains our body's "sweet spot" here (and the paddle's sweet spot also)


check 2:27 till 6:46
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Originally posted by TTFrenzy TTFrenzy wrote:


Total waste of time answering to douchebags like you, but anyway I tried to be friendly but it seems like we have a 14 yo kiddo here with libido issues.
Name calling again.
I didn't call you names.
It is all of you that are acting like 14 yo kids making up stuff, going off topic, it is hard to follow what you guys are talking about because there is no uniform definition of power among the lot of you and the badminton 'expert' is using the term incorrectly. 
If that badminton 'expert' wants to generate extra power then he could hit the shuttle while spinning a hula hoop around his waist.
If that badminton 'expert' wants more speed after impact he will NEED to generate more power or learn to use the power he does generate more efficiently so his racquet can be moving faster.  I suggest getting more of body into the stroke or step into the stroke instead of just waving his arms around.

About power. 
I will help you out.  A joule is N-m and a watt is a N-m/s or joule/s.
Now equate power to the speed after impact of the ball.
I bet you can't do it.
To get a hint you should look at the pdf file I posted a link to a couple of days back.
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Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

It is all of you that are acting like 14 yo kids making up stuff, going off topic, it is hard to follow what you guys are talking about because there is no uniform definition of power among the lot of you and the badminton 'expert' is using the term incorrectly. 


No he isn't.  The badminton coach is not having a physics discussion.  If he were, then you'd be correct.  But he's teaching badminton.  And the way he uses the term "power" is perfectly fine in that context.
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Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

It is all of you that are acting like 14 yo kids making up stuff, going off topic, it is hard to follow what you guys are talking about because there is no uniform definition of power among the lot of you and the badminton 'expert' is using the term incorrectly. 


No he isn't.  The badminton coach is not having a physics discussion.

He doesn't show he know anything about physics in his video.

Quote
  If he were, then you'd be correct.

My definition of power is correct.  His is wrong.  I know that many equate power to speed but that confuses the issue just like the coach is confused.

Quote
  But he's teaching badminton.

Good thing he isn't teaching physics.

Quote
  And the way he uses the term "power" is perfectly fine in that context.

OK, but he is still wrong. So the coach is talking about speed after impact.  You know that pause has nothing to do with it but the coach doesn't.   It is the racquet speed at impact that is important but as I pointed out before he would get even more speed if he put his body into it.
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tt4me are you must be chuck norris or something
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Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by TTFrenzy TTFrenzy wrote:


Total waste of time answering to douchebags like you, but anyway I tried to be friendly but it seems like we have a 14 yo kiddo here with libido issues.
Name calling again.
I didn't call you names.
It is all of you that are acting like 14 yo kids making up stuff, going off topic, it is hard to follow what you guys are talking about because there is no uniform definition of power among the lot of you and the badminton 'expert' is using the term incorrectly. 
If that badminton 'expert' wants to generate extra power then he could hit the shuttle while spinning a hula hoop around his waist.
If that badminton 'expert' wants more speed after impact he will NEED to generate more power or learn to use the power he does generate more efficiently so his racquet can be moving faster.  I suggest getting more of body into the stroke or step into the stroke instead of just waving his arms around.

About power. 
I will help you out.  A joule is N-m and a watt is a N-m/s or joule/s.
Now equate power to the speed after impact of the ball.
I bet you can't do it.
To get a hint you should look at the pdf file I posted a link to a couple of days back.
So are you saying the coach is using the wrong terminology or he is wrong?
 
Are seriously giving this guy badminton advice?

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I find the thread interesting; use of english words not in their deepest scientific sense is something very common; as wturber said the coach is teaching badminton not physics. 

I have myself been guilty to insist a bit outside the main line as the coach in the op says to stop BEFORE the back swing when I was focusing on "no pause between backswing and swing"...nobody's perfect.

thanks to wturber (again) for bringing us back to the line that is common to all of us and that may sometimes contain an improper use of scientific terms that nevertheless carries the idea(s) people want to communicate.

I ignore the posts I am not interested in; that's ALWAYS the best way. flame potential is now killed in the egg (ok?).

back to the topic: the coach says: in a badminton smash, pause before the backswing (assuming the backswing starts when the head of the racket is pointing up); what is the equivalent to that in tt? a very high ball to smash; that pause on a smash in tt it would be right after getting in position while the ball is bouncing back up from the smasher's side of the table; I see that all the time. there lies the only possible comparison; on a smash! the coach is talking about a smash: why would we try to extend that to all strokes in another sport anyway? 

so my answer is yes; a short stop in a tt smash before unloading the stroke is probably beneficial in the sense it allows making sure we are closest to the best position and can adjust if necessary the arm circling from hip level to bottom to top and down again to smash. That loss of time in the pause is an investment that is maybe not necessary but is about securing the success of the stroke in case the footwork to get ready was not optimal: in that case of a non optimal footwork to be ready the player can adjust his arm motion for the best result after the short pause.
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Words like power were used long before they were used in scientific contexts. Most of us came here to enjoy and.improve our table tennis, not get insulted by physics experts who know little about how to get better at table tennis.

TT4me, whether in his current incarnation or as pnatchwey, has continued to spread his claims about physics at the cost of not caring whether his claims have empirical value for table tennis improvement. He also has no awareness of the bounds of civility he continually transgresses. Enough is enough.
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Time for a reality check or a timeout. LOL
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Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Both.
Ok, tt4me - how about this. If you agree this coach is a high level player - he can certainly tell the difference between different shots regarding their speed or power right? How would explain what he is noticing. You've already said he wrong about his explanation - what is your explanation has how he generating different power on the shots using his technique? 
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I have posted this link many times before.  Look half way down and you will see the formula for the speed after impact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution
There is no pause time in this equation.   The speed after impact only depends on the masses,  impact speeds, and the coefficient of restitution.  This is a key equation for impacts.

The coach may be a very good badminton player but he is getting his speed after impact with his fast swing, not the pause.  What he thinks is happening and what is really happening are two different things.  This is kind of like what went on in the dwell time thread.   What people think they felt and what was caught on a high speed video were two different things.  I/we run into this all the time.
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You guys are still going at it?!!Confused I should have known better than to think a thread like this would die a natural death. 

But since I haven't found a life yet since my last post.

" Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more"- Evil Smile

I watched the coaches vid again and studied it carefully. At one point he uses the phrase "absolutely stop". Now to me that is not ambiguous at all. That would mean cessation of all movement. But when I look at his actions when he demonstrates, I perceive tip of the racket to be sliding backward along with his arm until he snaps it back to cycle his smash. Again this, to me, is a change in direction of his motion not a "complete stop" no matter how brief it may seem to be. So to my perception he is not even doing what he says to do. This, of course, is not intentional deceit just a "figure of speech" or language used to get an idea across in a none technical context. No doubt he is an excellent badminton coach an an all around nice person so I am not casting aspersions. He is attempting to help players improve at the sport. Thinking the smash in that way might help some players improve. But that doesn't mean What he thinks is happening is happening and it also does not mean that it is an accurate description of what is occurring. 


Power is a very easy concept to understand and does not require pages of equations to comprehend it. No need to condescend. Had it been explained it would have been instantly clear why the term was used incorrectly. But those who did not know why it was an issue should have just looked it up. 
 
Power is just work done in a given time frame. Work is some type of movement. The more work done in a given time frame the more power is generated.

So if  the coach comes to a complete stop there is no power until he starts moving again. If he completes his entire stroke in under, say, 1 millisecond that would be a butt load of power. If he took two minutes hardly a trickle. 

The confusion is with the potential to do work or potential energy which is stored in the muscles and is built up as they contract but no outward movement has taken place. So what the coach actually means is the more you can flex you muscles without moving the more potential energy you can generate.

Of course there is a pretty direct relationship between potential energy and power and that's why most people just say power. I have no Issue with that and in most cases it is fine just to say power. However in this case It could be misleading. 

Now my comments where directed at the efficiency of the stroke. Completely stopping and stating each time wastes allot of energy because stopping something from moving requires as much energy starting to move it in the first place. So that's where my comment about why you see loopy strokes in tennis. In badminton and in TT the masses are allot less so you can see motions that appear to be straighter and can also be perceived as stopping. 

So here is another explanation of how to execute the BM smash that is much more cogent and relevant in terms of principles you can apply to TT.
FYI Peter Rsmussen is the Waldner/Schlager of the badminton world along with Peter Gade.



You see me now a veteran of a thousand psychic wars


Edited by V-Griper - 11/10/2013 at 2:36am
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you remind me that trick I use when I coach; I want the person to contact the ball at the highest point of its trajectory after it bounces on his/her side and the result is often too late; then I ask "can you hit the ball when it is still rising from the table?" and (s)he will be also a bit late...and hit it at the top...
the coach above may use that kind of trick, knowing that the result will not be a complete stop, just a transitional move as you precise.
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Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

you remind me that trick I use when I coach; I want the person to contact the ball at the highest point of its trajectory after it bounces on his/her side and the result is often too late; then I ask "can you hit the ball when it is still rising from the table?" and (s)he will be also a bit late...and hit it at the top...
the coach above may use that kind of trick, knowing that the result will not be a complete stop, just a transitional move as you precise.



How do you teach your students to time the ball? I have found that to be extremely critical to a players stroke development.
Just trying compare notes.
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Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

You guys are still going at it?!!Confused I should have known better than to think a thread like this would die a natural death. 

But since I haven't found a life yet since my last post.

" Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more"- Evil Smile

Welcome back V-Griper - as usual it will take me a while to study your post!
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Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

You guys are still going at it?!!Confused I should have known better than to think a thread like this would die a natural death. 

But since I haven't found a life yet since my last post.

" Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more"- Evil Smile

Welcome back V-Griper - as usual it will take me a while to study your post!


That's good LOLLOLLOL
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Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

I have posted this link many times before.  Look half way down and you will see the formula for the speed after impact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution
There is no pause time in this equation.   The speed after impact only depends on the masses,  impact speeds, and the coefficient of restitution.  This is a key equation for impacts.

The coach may be a very good badminton player but he is getting his speed after impact with his fast swing, not the pause.  What he thinks is happening and what is really happening are two different things.  This is kind of like what went on in the dwell time thread.   What people think they felt and what was caught on a high speed video were two different things.  I/we run into this all the time.

tt4me - so in the link you posted there are 2 speeds you need: speed before the impact and speed after the impact. Please explain how you calculate the speed of the racquet before impact? 

As V-Griper pointed out the pause is used to build Potential Energy - which is then converted to Kinetic Energy - that produces the velocity. This velocity is being used in your equation.
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