ZJK flips 90ish% of serves. How does he do it?

That's what the chiquita is all about. Skip over the close game and go right into the open game. It's not considered a pure flip in Asian countries, as the Western population tends to classify it. It's put under its own category as it's more a variant of the over-the-table loop than the flip.

From my own experience, it takes more footwork and "palmwork" than the flip to master.

Not tacky rubber. His backhand is T05txt.

i like the side of the ball point with very quick hand speed seems to result in an attack of any serve...not sure if im right or not...

suds79 wrote: My only vague guess is that perhaps he's contacting more of the side of the ball than I realize and/or his backhand motion is more upward (thus lifting the ball) than it appears.

It must be something like that, but what is even more amazing to me, no matter what serve someone hits him he almost never misses it, and the serves he's receiving have to be varying.  That means he always makes the right adjustment because there has to be some adjustment (perhaps how much on the side he hits it).  That plus he is always in the perfect position relative to the ball to hit this shot pretty much wherever someone serves the ball.  And then after he hits it, he is almost always back in time to hit a solid third ball from either side, his in and out movement is like lightening. 

These guys have raised the level of table tennis so high in the last few years it is like a video game.

I'm not certain but I'll check the stats another time. At 10:47, that's a long ball. Some of those he was flipping had big sidespin thus more 'flickable'. I say again that I'm not sure, but to me, he's choosing his hits like any aggressive player today. That is, anything that has side, looks floaty or strays long, tends to gets hit if the footwork is good enough to them into position in time.

Edited by Tinykin - 12/03/2013 at 5:57pm

Haven't thought this through completely, but if he:

Edited by slevin - 12/03/2013 at 4:55pm

I'm not sure, but I think that, when you see players do bh flip with a closed blade face, the serve is not heavy backspin. it is mostly sidespin with some light backspin. the reason why they don't serve heavy backspin is probably that they are afraid of short push and probably of heavy long push as well.

I like the comment about his stillness just before the shot, which is simply zen-like in its perfection, but it also tends to make his ability to always be in the right place to be even more amazing to me.  It is almost stealthy for lack of a better word  For a lot of people in TT, moving a short distance (like 20 cm) is a lot harder than moving a long distance (like 500 cm).  And somehow he is just where he needs to be every time, and then back and its like there is the minimum necessary vertical movement of his head during the whole thing.  Without any doubt, this is one of the most amazing shots in table tennis history.  A lot of people can do it, but none as well as this.  Actually he is so good at it I almost wonder if sometimes he isn't almost too predictable because of it.  The other CNT guys can adjust to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtEpSswHQoQ#t=182

Baal wrote: I like the comment about his stillness just before the shot, which is simply zen-like in its perfection, but it also tends to make his ability to always be in the right place to be even more amazing to me.  It is almost stealthy for lack of a better word  For a lot of people in TT, moving a short distance (like 20 cm) is a lot harder than moving a long distance (like 500 cm).  And somehow he is just where he needs to be every time, and then back and its like there is the minimum necessary vertical movement of his head during the whole thing.  Without any doubt, this is one of the most amazing shots in table tennis history.  A lot of people can do it, but none as well as this.  Actually he is so good at it I almost wonder if sometimes he isn't almost too predictable because of it.  The other CNT guys can adjust to it.

Its like the "Blazing Saddles" fast draw joke. He's always there, but you dont notice him move.!

beeray1 wrote: That's a great explanation of a Bh Flip, Kurokami.  This is a really great thread, but nobody is going to have an exact answer because we're all students and there are ancient chinese secrets involved ZJK isn't really flipping the ball though. He's looping it over the table. He doesn't flip much, but Ma Long sure does. ZJK starts with his racket closed and his body position because it gives him a bigger range of motion to generate racket speed. When you are doing the "Chiquita" with a ball that's pure backspin, you want to contact the ball toward the axis (the side of the ball) as the spin has little effect there and your shot can be made clean and you don't have to overcome the spin.  The flip is different as you use the spin directly. Ma Long does it a lot.  The Japanese do this much more pronounced with the side contact, but they aren't as good as the chinese, but arguable more creative with it. They give lots of weird balls, and even backspin ball on some of the chiquitas they do. Nobody is as smooth and is as quick to adjust as ZJK. His technique in this shot is the most advanced in my opinion.  This is all in regards to a simple backspin serve though. Things change a little with other kinds of serves. But that's why the "Chiquita" is a popular service receive, it's something you can adapt very easily last second all with the same base and with over the table range of motion. You can open on any ball right away.

Thanks!

I have ambitions of mastering this shot (like many of us I guess).

I have read threads about this shot and some reckon it can take years to learn. Well I'm not really buying that...

I have two questions:

1) What rubbers are best for BH for this shot. ZJK is reputed to use T05FX now and previously T64. Can it be done with T05? Similar rubbers and is max rubber always used?

2) Is their a route to this shot? Is is all or nothing or can a baby version of this shot be learned first then progressed to the full blown banana flip.

Desperately seeking your tips please.

I can make this shot when I don't have to move too far to my right and I am certain as to the spin on the serve.  ZJK always plays it like he knows exactly what the spin is on the serve (because he does) even though the world's top players do not hit the same serve every time --- even if it sometimes looks like it is the same.  These guys are so far beyond us it is just absurd. 

It's definitely a matter of developing the feel, and just experimenting. Everyone has their own style and preference. Practice it in an isolated situation, drill it. Become confident and further your experimentation. It's a shot that takes a long time to get down well, but once you are comfortable, it feels like magic being able to loop balls over the table that you would usually not be able to. 

CraneStyle wrote: The soul of rock wrote: IMHO, you can do the BH flick with any kind of inverted rubbers. I would recommend you to practice the BH loop until you have a good feeling for it, then the flick will naturally come. Interesting... So, touch and feel are important keys... I am currently working to perfect my BH loop against long serves and long pushes. Relaxed grip, touch and feel are important keys for my BH loop. Thanks!

I can do this shot reliably (but the quality of the serves and the flicks is of course not that that high) against short and half long serves. My footwork is not good enough to accommodate fast serves and I get trapped when I misread a long serve as a half long serve.

If a serve is short and you can get in position before the top of the bounce, you can go over it and add more emphasis on speed as it is easier to get it over the net. You just need to have good wrist acceleration. Keeping a high elbow and letting it drop helps.
If it is very short than getting to it at the top of the bounce is not possible as you will have too much forward motion if you come over the table and will not be able to recover. In this case it is better to take the ball after the top of the bounce and do a banana flip (hit side of the ball and lift it a little). You cannot get good speed on this shot so the emphasis has to be on placement and spin. As you have more time you can look at your opponents position and then place the ball.
If the serve is half-long you can again go over the ball. As your paddle can come up from below the table, you have more paddle speed so it is easier to put in a good quality shot.
The most difficult part for me has been dealing with serves a little more than half long and long serves. These cramp me up if I misread the serve and I have to hit near the bottom of the paddle instead of the top to keep the ball in play.
There's also an issue with predictability. Someone who can disguise a long serve well can trap you and win a point straight off the serve. This happens at all levels I am sure.

you can do the bh banana flip against any kind of spin including heavy backspin. (I do). But not with the closed blade face like you see from the pros. The reason why they can use such a closed face is that the serve is sidespin with light backspin (just enough to prevent drive as I said).