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    Posted: 03/30/2021 at 5:31pm
When forehand looping a ball, is the racket parallel to the path of travel (top), or is it more open (bottom)?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/30/2021 at 5:53pm
It depends on the incoming ball (trajectory, spin)... You can't use just one angle to deal with everything...

Also the path of the racket should be slightly curved and not a straight line. This is to increase dwell time and spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 4:41am
Originally posted by chopandloop chopandloop wrote:

When forehand looping a ball, is the racket parallel to the path of travel (top), or is it more open (bottom)?



The new rubbers today would permit a more closed angle compared to the past years especially if you engage the sponge more. It is used before but i noticed with new rubbers, i can still loop underspin at 30 degrees angle and ou do not need to drop your racket at knee level to loop. It can be achieved on a though level unless the underspin is really super heavy from choppers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote WingTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 9:46am
@blahness
Ball contact times is in the order of milliseconds. Trying to get increase dwell time by curving the path of the racket in a swing is a counterproductive bad habit and is the thing that will screw up your stroke and make hitting the ball hard difficult and reduce your accuracy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmugica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 9:55am
Originally posted by WingTT WingTT wrote:

@blahness
Ball contact times is in the order of milliseconds. Trying to get increase dwell time by curving the path of the racket in a swing is a counterproductive bad habit and is the thing that will screw up your stroke and make hitting the ball hard difficult and reduce your accuracy.

Glad to see common sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by WingTT WingTT wrote:

@blahness
Ball contact times is in the order of milliseconds. Trying to get increase dwell time by curving the path of the racket in a swing is a counterproductive bad habit and is the thing that will screw up your stroke and make hitting the ball hard difficult and reduce your accuracy.

Even if it's in milliseconds, say a 50% increase in dwell time is still gonna improve your control/spin significantly. 

If you don't wrap around the ball by curving the swing path you'll get poor spin and consistency. The pros and even the state/provincial player I watched curves everything including pushes. 

In fact, trying to get thin brushes is what usually makes hitting the ball difficult in terms of timing, it is much better to approach the ball with a relatively open racket, and then close it progressively, the margin for error increases dramatically with that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WingTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 4:56pm
@blahness
Out of curiousity, do you notice the top 20 players in the world do this curved swing path thing on youtube? I'd like to see an example of what you're talking about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 7:25pm
Blahness,

When wrapping around the ball, what would you estimate is the blade angle change between just before contact and just after contact?  Is it more like 90deg, 45deg, or 5 deg.?  I am trying to understand more about when to, how much, and how quickly the pronation is done.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmileTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 9:13pm
Based on my understanding, the loop described in scenario 1 will lead to spinnier and more continuous (counter-)loop rallies.

The loop illustrated in scenario 2 works too, but, some momentum will be lost on impact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by WingTT WingTT wrote:

@blahness
Out of curiousity, do you notice the top 20 players in the world do this curved swing path thing on youtube? I'd like to see an example of what you're talking about.

Yes grab any side angle video and you'll see it crystal clear. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Blahness,

When wrapping around the ball, what would you estimate is the blade angle change between just before contact and just after contact?  Is it more like 90deg, 45deg, or 5 deg.?  I am trying to understand more about when to, how much, and how quickly the pronation is done.

Mark

The actual change during contact is quite small, but between the backswing and followthrough it's about 45 deg. So for eg vs backspin I'm thinking 90 deg to 45 deg, vs topspin I'm thinking 45 deg to 0 deg (all angles respective to the horizontal plane)

I think it also depends on the player. If you watch Fan Zhendong he sometimes does even 90 deg wraparounds when he's out of position. 

The feeling is that you first hit the ball into the sponge, then brush the ball by wrapping around it towards the front. This is also taught by most professionals who are doing tutorial videos. 

Also the wraparound is achieved not just by pronation, but also the centre of gravity and the forearm which all act to "press" the ball downwards during the followthrough. So the stroke is a bit like an arc itself, to create a good arc in the ball, it goes low -> high -> back low. If you just go low to high without pressing the ball down at the end then it's super easy to loop it out of the table (mainly due to the lack of spin and trajectory control)


Edited by blahness - 04/01/2021 at 9:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 11:44pm
Here's a side on angle of FZD in slow-mo:


What exactly are we talking about here with it? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 12:44am
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Here's a side on angle of FZD in slow-mo:


What exactly are we talking about here with it? 

Pause at 0:13 just before he contacts the ball, and then pause again at 0:15 when he finishes his followthrough. It's kinda obvious isn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WingTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 1:17am
All I can see is a linear motion through most of the stroke and especially around the contact point. The only curve is the radius caused by the fact that the arm has a maximum length and the follow through that causes the arm to fold at the elbow. The angle of the blade is consistent right before and after the contact. Assuming this is not a April fools joke, I am amazed at how different people can look at the same thing and perceive different things. Ces't la vie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 1:48am
Originally posted by WingTT WingTT wrote:

All I can see is a linear motion through most of the stroke and especially around the contact point. The only curve is the radius caused by the fact that the arm has a maximum length and the follow through that causes the arm to fold at the elbow. The angle of the blade is consistent right before and after the contact. Assuming this is not a April fools joke, I am amazed at how different people can look at the same thing and perceive different things. Ces't la vie.

You're not looking correctly then. It's quite obvious that the blade goes from down to up and then back down during the followthrough. The blade angle also starts quite open at contact, and then it becomes closed at the end of the followthrough. 

Without that followthrough you will lose a lot of the spin and control, because the shape of the followthrough is determined by how you contact the ball. Maybe at contact there is only a 2 deg change in blade angle which can be close to invisible to the naked eye, but that is already sufficient to create a significant difference in shot quality (compared to 0 change in blade angle). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WingTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 2:03am
It's a good thing for the thread I'm not brokenball from TTD. Let's leave it at that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 11:08am
We've had this discussion before, and I know you are firmly convinced that closing the blade through contact is some sort of "useful, cutting-edge magic", but I still strongly disagree.

I've looked at the referenced video - and numerous others - and am only convinced of one thing.  You must be imagining that the blade is doing what you claim/think (confirmation bias perhaps?)...  After watching the referenced video many times - at varying speeds I see zero evidence in the video that support your blade closing argument.  For fun - and to verify that I am not "imagining" something myself, I had several folks (about 1/2 TT players, and 1/2 "normal folk") watch the video.  None saw the blade closing as it approached the ball. 

When viewed at 0.25x speed his blade is pretty clearly OPENING slightly as it approaches the ball.  The only closing of the blade that I see happens precisely AT CONTACT.  This closing of the blade angle is absolutely not intentional, premeditated, or stroke driven - it is simply physics.  The ball hits the blade below center of mass, hence the impact force creates a moment (torque) in the blade which causes it to rotate forward momentarily.

I don't expect to convince you and won't engage in prolonged debate - I just felt compelled to speak up (again).

bes
p.s. maybe someone more technical than me can create a poll?  Something like "Review the attached video (suggest 0.25x speed) and select the option that best describes what you see the blade doing:
1) closing as it approaches the ball and "wrapping around it"
2) opening slightly as it approaches the ball, then closing due to impact
3) essentially a steady, stable stroke with the blade closing at/due to impact (or something like that)"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmileTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 11:49am
Just to contribute another slow-mo video, Ma long does the wrap around loop here at 10s. 

https://youtu.be/jOpHKDKk91w?t=10

Not saying whether it has any effect on the ball, perhaps just a way to increase his shot consistency.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by SmileTT SmileTT wrote:

Just to contribute another slow-mo video, Ma long does the wrap around loop here at 10s. 

https://youtu.be/jOpHKDKk91w?t=10

Not saying whether it has any effect on the ball, perhaps just a way to increase his shot consistency.


Yes the overall aim is to increase consistency. Here is how I tend to describe it.

There is a concept in the military called CEP (Circular Error Probable) which is all about precision in striking a target area.
If in TT you aim to strike a ball at a particular point on the bat, one can have consistency issues. That is, missing the ball or the ball hits the 'wrong' section of the bat. However, if you mentally broaden that strike area on the bat, CEP, your consistency in actually solidly hitting the ball goes up. That is the aim of the 'wrap around' stroke.
I find that it is usually done at distance from the table or when you are not sure of the spin or bounce point of the incoming ball. Liang Jingkun has an exaggerated version that he uses about once per game.
With a practice partner, try looping the ball to each other 10 times whilst standing say, 10feet, from the table. You both will naturally do that stroke to widen the desired strike area on the bat.


Edited by Tinykin - 04/02/2021 at 3:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 3:40pm
I've watched the Ma Long in slow-mo of the slow-mo, and to me it doesn't look like he wraps around when hitting the ball, but more on the follow through. His whole stroke is an arcing motion from beginning to end on that particular point. Maybe in an effort to close down over the incoming top spin, and due to the speed he has to do both changes at the same time. I don't notice this kind of motion/action when the incoming ball has back spin. 

So it seems there are two sides. One from the 'physicists' sort, who argue the contact happens so fast it's impossible to 'wrap around' and make a new contact point resulting in any measurable change to the shot. 

The other is more theoretical and thinks the 'wrapping' action helps with shot consistency and broadens the margin for error. That is, making a wrapping motion with your arm (which is still continuous) as opposed to a straight line swing. 

To my eyes, if they didn't do any wrapping at all and still managed to contact the ball in the same spot with the same angle - there wouldn't be a noticeable change in the shot, whether they wrapped before or after or not at all. So long as the actual contact was identical. 

/headscratch 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 5:33pm
You guys are just not looking at the followthrough smh.... but rather just immediately before/after contact. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 8:40pm
https://youtu.be/A9sph_LAb_I
5:00-6.10
Timo boll talking about starting with a more open racket angle and wrapping around the ball.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 10:12pm
I think we'd need a slow mo explanation video Tongue 

I just tested my forehand to see how it goes. Now, for mine... it continues on at about / angle, and then when it finishes my arm turns flatter -- and ends up with the paddle face pointing more down toward the floor. Is that an indicator of wrapping, or just wild flapping? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 11:09pm
It is hard to believe in this wrapping technique until you try it. It seems that it is hard to do it, but that is how a lot of high ranking player and professional players are doing it. 

And still, a decent forehand drive is required for this wrapping (drive loop) technique.

I believe that most people do not have a proper forehand drive to support this technique.  If you forehand drive with a  relatively closed paddle, it is impossible to hit loop like this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

I think we'd need a slow mo explanation video Tongue 

I just tested my forehand to see how it goes. Now, for mine... it continues on at about / angle, and then when it finishes my arm turns flatter -- and ends up with the paddle face pointing more down toward the floor. Is that an indicator of wrapping, or just wild flapping? LOL

Yeah you're already closing your bat angle. Try doing it without "flattening your arm" at the finish, you'll notice a huge reduction in spin/control. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

It is hard to believe in this wrapping technique until you try it. It seems that it is hard to do it, but that is how a lot of high ranking player and professional players are doing it. 

And still, a decent forehand drive is required for this wrapping (drive loop) technique.

I believe that most people do not have a proper forehand drive to support this technique.  If you forehand drive with a  relatively closed paddle, it is impossible to hit loop like this.
I don't think so, there's plenty of ugly stroke players who wrap the ball very well and rarely miss. But of course with ugly strokes without good body mechanics you won't get any meaningful pace on the ball which makes the spin easy to deal with. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2021 at 5:10am
Racket trajectory of the FH counterhit by Singaporean expert(pro teams and clubs) and novice players(1 hour of playtime per week, w/o formal training) shows that the stroke follows a curved path in the xz, xy, and yz planes. The black bars in Figure 4-6 indicate the racket plane.

Figure 4-6a - plan view(xz plane)
Figure 4-6b - side view(xy plane, of interest here)
Figure 4-6c - front view(yz plane)
Figure 4-6d - 3D
T1-T2 - back swing
T2-T3 - forward swing
T3 - racket-ball contact
T3-T4 - follow-through

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Biomechanical-analysis-and-model-development-to-Zhang/7fbcd670e9f3e1c283f9c560323d2c3eadb8c84c


Edited by zeio - 04/04/2021 at 5:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pitigoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2021 at 10:32am
Looking at the graph, I can see that Singapore novices are really good. I've played only at six clubs, including one in Bonn and one in Hong Kong and the novices have much weirder moves. I consider myself "intermediate" and work on improving my counterhit mechanics 2h/week for months and maybe I achieved the trajectory of the Singapore novice.

I may never be able to get the expert trajectory, but from what I see in the graph, all that the "novice" needs is judge the incoming ball better, followed by more weight transfer and a longer follow-up. Maybe better footwork helps by having the right foot a bit more behind.

As for wrap-around, I should try to close the angle during the shot and see what happens. It may improve my shot as in my videos it appears that my paddle's angle is opening slightly and this is definitely bad.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2021 at 6:00pm
Really good diagrams there. I actually had a brief read of the article. One very interesting point was that the experts started their stroke slower than the amateurs and ended their strokes much faster. So actually we don't need to rush the stroke so much. Also it's quite interesting that the experts had quite large strokes! 

From the article, the experts also tend to squat lower and hit the ball further from the body (they are more back and to the left relative to the ball)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2021 at 10:02pm
The expert tend to start from the lower position with a lower hand because they have a faster swing speed ( arm, body and leg combined). So when contacting the ball, the racket goes a lot more higher than amature players. Without that speed, most ball will go far out of the table.  
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Fan starts with his hand so low but still can overcome the income topspin.
It’s easy to figure this out when train with robot. Increase the topspin step by step with you hand starting from same lower position until lose control of the incoming topspin and cannot land the ball on the table ,then try to start from a high position or even from the same height of the income ball 


Edited by Robin.w - 04/04/2021 at 10:14pm
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