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    Posted: 11/16/2009 at 7:02pm
So My other topic Video of me generated a lot of response and I am starting a new topic for my questions because I think it may be beneficial to other people besides myself. You don't have to have watched the video to understand this post but if you wish it is here. Sorry this is so long I want to be thourough

Wow, thanks everyone so much for your responses. I appreciate this help since I have had no formal coaching. I have been playing for about one year and love the game. I am striving for excellence in stroke mechanics and performance, but cannot easily watch myself play. I watch professionals and videos when I find them but have just recently started recording myself so that I can fix problems instead of just "feeling" something wrong in my stroke. All of your comments are appreciated no matter how critical, and I wouldn't want it any other way.


BH my loop especially got a lot of comments. I realized its weakness not too long ago and have recently been doing drills for it (probably did 500 BHs this same night after I made the video lol). I have tried to make it look like I see in videos of pros which might be why it looks okay (bumpernets 19) but still doesn't land. The drills I do for it are usually loop against block, and some sort of serve to push to loop drill to practice using it to start a rally.
Questions I have for BH: Having trouble deciding where to start the stroke, such as almost between my legs when against underspin, and when to start to move it outside my hip (if ever) when against top spin. I have seen in a Chinese training video that you should have the same hip rotation with back hand as in forehand, so for me my right hip moving forward with each stroke, is this correct? It feels sort of awkward, and I've seen many pros turn their right shoulder towards the table and uncoiling the opposite way. Basically I'm just curious about the weight transfer and torso rotation during the BH strokes, is it different when against underspin and topspin?


Serves My serves have changed a lot in the past 2 months or so, from mostly long top/side to mostly short back/side, although this might not be evident in the video. I realized that to play at a higher level I would need shorter serves that were low with varying spin. I know in this video it may appear that I use mostly long serves and I am, but when I play a more advanced players almost all of my serves are short backspin, with long topspin thrown in sparingly. I believe my serves have more spin than is evident in the video, although I am still acknowledging this as a problem and will certainly work my serves until they are of a higher quality. I have had the opportunity to play very good players in my short career: Shao Yu (top 25 men in the US, usatt about 2550, US national team member), Sumi Lee (top 25 women in the US, usatt about 2350), David Landry (several time Alabama state champion, usatt about 2150), as well as various other players rated over 2100. Throughout these games my short serves havent been a problem, even if they try to flip. My long serves are a different story and I learned to avoid them. Now against a player like Shao Yu, he obviously could play me without thinking or trying too hard. Although Im sure he was frustrated that he had to play a player of my caliber in the initial round robin group and may have not attacked my short serves because he didnt want to be mean (Im not sure though since he hit me in the face with a counter loop and it might have been on purpose ) I think my short serves were spinny and short enough to not be attacked consistently by him or anyone else.
As for the stance of my serve as commented by Heimdallalso, I tried standing at my desk with my right foot farther back from the table and it seemed much more comfortable, and may facilitate better spin. Ill try this next time I play.

Blocks Its pretty much unanimous that they suck, so I will try to alleviate them lol. Should I not do them in general or is there a better way to do them? I usually block when I feel I dont have enough time to react but it was also mentioned that I may have more time that I think.


FH- I am reaching or taking the ball too early. Is this evident all the time or only some of the time? I feel like I am striking the ball at the appropriate time on loops; is this wrong or do should I just weight longer and loop as opposed to blocking or pushing?
I am using too much arm. Does this apply when looping against underspin? I know that I should drop my hip before releasing my torso through the ball but I may not be doing this enough. A very good player told me that I wasnt using enough weight transfer and body rotation the same night as this video, and I have since been drilling with this proper form as my goal. Can someone confirm that it is wrong to cross my arm in front of my body after a loop? Not crossing would improve stroke recovery which is one thing I have worked a lot on, but it would also add tension at the end of my swing which is not supposed to be good. Finally should there be more arm movement against underspin than against topspin?

Grip- Items mentioned were: get the tip of the blade down, may be too high on the racket. I am pretty sure my grip is in the correct spot on the handle (not too high) because I have studied it meticulously and it is fairly comfortable. When ready my elbow is essentially in line with the table, if my racket tip was not up then my racket would be below the table. I hold my wrist in a relaxed position when ready, although my wrist is angled down more when I do FH and BH strokes (so the tip should also be down). To make it easier please answer with respect to the blades handle. Where should the handle be positioned relative to A) my palm B) my forearm and C) the table (parallel or perpendicular or angled and above or below or even)

Weight Transfer- This was briefly explained to me by the best player at our club, but could someone explain the differences in weight transfer and body rotation between FH and BH strokes? Should it be used all the time, if not with which strokes?

Push- I totally agree with everyone, my pushes are horrendous and I have never put in the time to fix them. I think the way that I just let the ball bounce off the paddle sometimes (or most of the time) may have started when I was playing with equipment that was too fast for me. I will work on getting more spin on them by pushing all the way through instead of just tapping.

Smashes- Not mentioned in the comments but once maybe. My footwork is lazy when smashing against lobs, and I lose quite a few points this way. I should never need to resort to a backhand slam against a lob but do so often due to not moving.

Footwork- Is my right foot back too far? I thought that it was pretty much in the right place, especially since weight transfer should be from right leg to left leg, moving forward with the stroke.

Service Return- Yes I am scared to attack long serves, even though I know how to attack them. I guess I should just practice receiving. I get scared of all the sidespin mixed with back and topspin. Suggestions on this? When returning a long serve I also feel rushed like I have no time to react, should I scoot back farther from the table? Currently where my handle meets the rubber is just at the end of the table, I am agile enough to catch short serves if I scoot back.

Playing Enviroment- Some of you liked it some of you didnt. I hate this location, I dont like the carpet or the low ceiling, plus the table isnt good. Our club has very nice tables and a large section of the gym floor reserved, but we can meet only twice a week, sometimes three times, and I usually want to play more than this :D

Coaching- I very much want a good coach to help correct my problems, and to answer questions, although if I ask as many as I do here they might be annoyed! I think I will start a different topic on this subject as I may have a lot to say about it as usual ;)I want to develop, Ive been adjusted the last few tournaments that Ive played in, but I think I can develop faster. I am 19 (almost 20 though ugh) and have been playing for a year, I hope it isnt too late for me.

The Game- Yes this was a friendly game. We had both been drilling already for about 2 hours so we were a little tired. Alan and I are good friends and he is actually the one that got me into the sport. We may seem light hearted, but I was putting in s pretty good effort and Im sure he was too.

Tempo- Tempo was also mentioned. Does this mean our game is slow, like it takes too long? Is the ball moving slow? Is my timing of when I hit the ball wrong?

APW46- Im sorry your reply got deleted, I hope you still got to share everything you wanted to. I have had this problem before on Facebook but not on here. A very important letter I was writing got erased as I sent it TWICE! I have taken to copying posts before clicking the button. For especially long posts like this one I write in word before posting them. I appreciate you saying that you thought my friend and I were good prospects. I think that I have a lot of potential and really want to excel.

Heimdallalso- Thank you for the continued help and the in depth analysis of my game. You have been instrumental in helping me discover my problems so thank you very much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2009 at 10:15pm
since you havent had any coaching, is there a particular style you would like to mimic?  lets say from a pro.  if you plan to stick with euro/jap rubbers, you cannot mimic a chinese pros fh though.

i can probably fix your bh problem.  you said you were confused about where you start your motion.  so no you dont start at your hip. looping topspin should start around your chest area.  as for looping underspin, drop lower to between your legs and loop up from there.  dont be afraid to use the topsheet more to create the spin.

i want a clarification on the date the video was filmed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2009 at 10:57pm
I don't think my game is developed enough to mimic a pro just yet, I want to learn correct technique first and then I can see what works for me. The video was filmed last Monday Nov. 9, 2009 at around 9PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpgh2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 7:46am
i just uploaded a vid of backhand loop against underspin if you want to have a look at it. it could be helpful. my technique isn't super great but it could help shed some light on the issue?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWGRqyEjXzA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrick1v Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 8:38am
rotating your waist and weight trans is a bit different.weight transfer is transferring your weight from your right foot to your left foot while moving in a forward motion.you should practice your loop so your stroke finishes in a position(salute) so as your racket and hand is just above your right eye.for your backhand bring your right elbow infront of your body your left foot should be slightly behind right foot your right shoulder should be rotated and slightly down knees bent so you can use your legs as well as waist.your point of contact should be about foot infront of your body.your friend on the video you have to get him to raise his left arm for better balance bent at the elbow resting beside his waist.this will help his movement
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Reinecke Reinecke wrote:

I don't think my game is developed enough to mimic a pro just yet, I want to learn correct technique first and then I can see what works for me. The video was filmed last Monday Nov. 9, 2009 at around 9PM

Think of it as a goal or a direction you want to take your game.  Just wondering about how you would like to hit the ball and then give advice on that.  Just work on the things that complement your game best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpgh2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 10:49am
for the backhand try picturing throwing a frisbee =). that's how i learned it. the central pivot point should be your elbow. it should not move (only rotate) when you do your motion.

hope that helps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 11:29am
Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

for the backhand try picturing throwing a frisbee =). that's how i learned it. the central pivot point should be your elbow. it should not move (only rotate) when you do your motion.

hope that helps.

that is actually a very very good way to think about it Thumbs%20Up 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 12:30pm
One thing instantly jumped at me - and I see that all the time with younger players (perhaps I am over-generalizing there but...)

You guys do not pay attention to your serve... you serve very casually, carelessly, almost without any thought or without trying to create some troubles for your opponent. Take a few seconds before your serve and think!

BTW, here is a very good exercise (for just a few minutes):

Serve, then try to kill with the 3rd ball - if you don't, stop the point. Do that a few times trying to force the other guy to give you an opening for the 3rd ball attack (or perhaps serve so good that he can't return). Then he does the same thing... etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by patrick1v patrick1v wrote:

rotating your waist and weight trans is a bit different.weight transfer is transferring your weight from your right foot to your left foot while moving in a forward motion.you should practice your loop so your stroke finishes in a position(salute) so as your racket and hand is just above your right eye.for your backhand bring your right elbow infront of your body your left foot should be slightly behind right foot your right shoulder should be rotated and slightly down knees bent so you can use your legs as well as waist.your point of contact should be about foot infront of your body.your friend on the video you have to get him to raise his left arm for better balance bent at the elbow resting beside his waist.this will help his movement
 
So there shouldn't be weight transfer during the backhand stroke?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

for the backhand try picturing throwing a frisbee =). that's how i learned it. the central pivot point should be your elbow. it should not move (only rotate) when you do your motion.

hope that helps.
 
It's funny because I play on the Ultimate team at Alabama. Ultimate is a game played with a frisbee that is sort of like soccer and rugby or football combined for those of you that don't know Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TBS9x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 4:16pm
- I think JimT is saying the right thing. Although it's just a friendly game, you guys can't just stand straight and serve like amateurs like that. Try to bend down, no need to be hurry, just execute your serves with care and also think before you serve. Since I've used the internet to learn table tennis and I've stumbled on this forum, I've learned that serving is not only about creating a lot of spin, this is what young beginners mis-think of. They usually think if you can do a cool, spinny serve and that's good. Well, it's only good if you are playing if someone that is below your level, who couldn't read the spin good. If you serve too spinny and the opponent can still receive then you will be in deep trouble if you don't know how to handle the next step. A good serve is a serve that will not let your opponent to attack ( unless you want to provoke an attack from your opponent ) or make a strong attack stroke / a serve that will setup your attack afterwards. The key is to fool your opponent, a deceptive serve is just as good as a spinny serve, sometimes it works even better because if the opponent misjudge the ball then you have a big chance to finish the point.
- You guys have played for more than 1 year without no formal coaching and your USATT rating is 1400? Shocked

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 4:19pm
Yes I have been adjusted my last two tournaments and am 1346, but my last tournament was 3 1/2 months ago so I have have certainly improved since then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TBS9x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 4:47pm
I dont know how that system works but i thought it's harder to be a 1400 USATT than this :D 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpgh2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by TBS9x TBS9x wrote:

I dont know how that system works but i thought it's harder to be a 1400 USATT than this :D 


it wasn't hard to reach 1400 when i first started out. believe it or not, i was over rated at my first tournament. i beat some 1600's and that's what i was put at. but now i should be around that level. =)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by TBS9x TBS9x wrote:

I dont know how that system works but i thought it's harder to be a 1400 USATT than this :D 

Its definitely much harder in California
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 10:38pm
It depends on the pool of players really, as long as you don't lose to anyone below you and beat a few higher than you you can move up. TBS9x if you don't know the best American players are 2600-2700 USATT. Still looking for help with my questions above.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bumpernets19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2009 at 10:55pm
The two main important things about the block: It is a DEFENSIVE move...so don't put it back to your opponents strong wing...try to vary the direction in which you block in...I always try to block short to my opponents weak half (normally the bh) forcing it almost always to the center of the table where I can then block it far to their forehand putting them out of position even if they do get there in time. Also...when you do a chopblock...you put a backspin on the ball making it very delicious for a looper to take advantage of. Also...when you perform a bh loop...remember...you get more speed from a tight grip, and more spin from a loose grip that you rotate back on and whip thru like a frisby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TBS9x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2009 at 2:24am
Ok, so it depends on where you play, if you play in an environment where there are many good players then it's harder to go up in the ranking...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2009 at 2:59am
Not necessarily. You start out with an estimated rating. If you lose to someone that is more than 200 points above you nothing happens, and if you beat someone less than 200 points below you nothing happens. So as long as there are players at around your level in your area you can increase your rating. Problems arise when there is nobody at your level so the only way you can get points is when you beat someone much better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2009 at 5:23am
Sorry 238 is the magic number for point differential, not 200
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skjutmigmormor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2009 at 6:45am
Backhand.

It looks like you have the same technuiqe for backhand like Magnus Mnsson in the swedish elitserie. Perhaps it can be of use to look at some video of him for some pointers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6Kh7BgcWCs
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2009 at 4:33pm
That's a great video, his backhand stroke is very quick! He seems to take his loops very quick off the bounce as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heimdallalso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2009 at 1:57am
Originally posted by Reinecke Reinecke wrote:


Blocks Its pretty much unanimous that they suck, so I will try to alleviate them lol. Should I not do them in general or is there a better way to do them? I usually block when I feel I dont have enough time to react but it was also mentioned that I may have more time that I think.


FH- I am reaching or taking the ball too early. Is this evident all the time or only some of the time? I feel like I am striking the ball at the appropriate time on loops; is this wrong or do should I just weight longer and loop as opposed to blocking or pushing?
I am using too much arm. Does this apply when looping against underspin? I know that I should drop my hip before releasing my torso through the ball but I may not be doing this enough. A very good player told me that I wasnt using enough weight transfer and body rotation the same night as this video, and I have since been drilling with this proper form as my goal. Can someone confirm that it is wrong to cross my arm in front of my body after a loop? Not crossing would improve stroke recovery which is one thing I have worked a lot on, but it would also add tension at the end of my swing which is not supposed to be good. Finally should there be more arm movement against underspin than against topspin?




Good evening Reinecke, Let me start of by saying I am fairly low level & prone to error though I do have some beginning (& I stress this word purposefully, beginning) understanding of this endeavor.
APW46 & many others here are well above me, all the same I can try some.
Firstly; you will not get better overnight but you will get better.

Blocks most certainly do not suck. Part of the thing is to not use a block when a stroke could be played & I think there are a fair number of times you did this on the vid you posted.
Sometimes a good block IS the right shot for the moment.
It took me a fair bit of time to recognize/see this "more time" that we speak about. I can't even recall for sure who brought it to my attention but they are right! Now, I have to create some more time by virtue of better footwork, tactics/choices ect ect.
If I play opponents a good deal above me I do not have so much time & may have to block more!
Though you appear relaxed when you play, R E L A X even more!
As you play & drill more and more, resist the temptation to reach forward for the ball when you would be far better served to wait just a little, having moved your young feet, you are now prepared to play a PROPER stroke! I may sound like a broken record but I speak from experience.
Then, after having played a good stroke, do what APW46 has suggested you do; that is get "ready for your next shot in any given rally as soon as you have hit the ball, ie don't just ball watch."

As you develop you will begin to work out tactics to your strengths &/or your opponents weaknesses.
Blocking is certainly your friend here!

as for you FH
you are not reaching & taking it too early all the time just some of the time
& when you do it is quite ugly & ineffective (take no offense young man!)
IT MAY win you a point (or possibly quite a few) now, but as soon as you move to the deeper end of the pool you are going to drown... for sure
you have a bad habit (I think) LIKE ME (though I have gotten better!) of reaching for the early one... look at your vid again and see if this is so.
Reaching & taking the ball too early at the beginning of the point.
When you loop to your current level I think you are getting it at the top of its bounce (so this is right).
Everything else you say in this section sits well & rings "true" with me...
especially the section where "A very good player told me that I wasnt using enough weight transfer and body rotation the same night as this video".
When looping against underspin there is still weight transfer & there may be a bit more arm component 
generally
loop against topspin/loop more forward component
loop against underspin/chop more upward component
this is a generalization & obviously there are other things to factor
The not crossing advice is also correct, I think & need not add tension at the end of you swing.


Oh to be as young & coachable as you!!!

check this out
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21024&KW=coaching
& when I'm able I'll send you a pic of Ms Huijing Wang & I
she is awe inspiring
Big%20smile

NEXY Lissom st 85g
fh/ Andro Impuls Speed max
bh/ Palio Flying Dragon 1.8
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2009 at 2:58am
Thank you for the continued advice on my game, as well as the info on Ms. Wang. I can only assume you saw my other topic on coaching. She teaches at my club in Houston, although right now I'm at school in Alabama so I can't take lessons.
Mizutani Jun ST     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heimdallalso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2009 at 3:22am
I did. I just watched your vid again. Shame on me for not seeing more good things because they are there!

Most (all?) of your reaching happens on the FH side & can go away when you have better tools ie  confident consistent push & loop 
My last observation then I'll leave you be so some real help will show up
look at your vid & anytime you see yourself playing a FH (other than loop) and the tip of your blade is pointed N/upwards
that is ineffective almost without exception & will hinder your advancing

enough negative bullsh*t

You are a Ping Pong Baller!
LOL

Good Hitting
see ya round 
NEXY Lissom st 85g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2009 at 3:46am
Originally posted by Heimdallalso Heimdallalso wrote:

Most (all?) of your reaching happens on the FH side & can go away when you have better tools ie confident consistent push & loop


Thanks for staying interested. I think the forehand side is more obvious. I reach with my backhand MUCH more often but have been working on it. I lose power and spin by contacting the ball up to 1.5 feet in front of my body. When I wait it feels more comfortable, I just have to get used to it. I hit FH loops with a 2000 for about 2 hours tonight working on not reaching, weight transfer, hip rotation, and most of all a shorter follow through. I recorded this session and determined that my long follow through (across my body) simply starts with too big of a back swing. Once I figured this out my loops started looking much better, too bad it was at the 1:50 mark of my 2:00 hour practice time lol!

I will keep in mind (and I agree), shots when my tip is vertical are not beneficial in the long run.

You've really helped my understanding with all this advice, thanks for taking interest
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