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whats wrong with this FH loop ?

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Topic: whats wrong with this FH loop ?
Posted By: razortt
Subject: whats wrong with this FH loop ?
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 3:02am

Here's I think whats need to be improved
1) Back swing too much
2) Lethargic right foot
3) Follow through is too much, need to keep it short

Any more ? Dead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2U45okbPKM&fmt=18 -

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Replies:
Posted By: Totoro
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 3:19am
You are a little too front on. You should be looking (with your eyes) to the wall to your right. Then the angle will be more correct.

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Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 3:25am
arm swing is not consistent. you basically lose form in a couple of your shots. body turn isn't full yet but you're not going 100% on those loops so i don't expect full body rotation.

you're pretty light on your feet which is good. you are right about the backswing being too long. but i could care less about the follow through. in fact the follow through ensures that you have proper impact on the ball. plus it forces you to recover faster =).


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Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 6:33am
Nothing. I'm sure it will develop into a well defined asset to your game as it progresses. You could squeeze yrself some extra time by recovering instantly instead of in sync with the rally tempo.

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Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 7:36am
I do not find anything wrong with your stroke, or form either.   You just need to get ready for the next ball after each stroke.   Look like wait and only pull back when the next ball comes.


Posted By: Rich215
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 9:07am
Thats easy to correct your problem!    Get rid of that music......lol 

Actually looks good.  


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Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 9:19am
I'll agree that your swing is a bit big, but it only needs to be a bit shorter.  And yes your follow through is slightly too big; try to keep the blade from passing the right side of your face.  The main reasons why you have these problem seems to be an issue in being able to get power from your stroke.  It actually looks like you're using more effort than you should be but the output isn't quite there.  This is from your lack of body rotation which is also directly caused by your right leg.

Come to think of it, you seem to see all your own problems Clap

What kind of rubber are you using on fh?  I'd need to know in order to adjust your stroke appropriately to get the most power out of the rubber.


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Posted By: ErikaT
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 11:05am
theres quite many points to talk about..........
 
basically, the foot should not be hopping


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Posted By: razortt
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by Rich215 Rich215 wrote:

Thats easy to correct your problem!    Get rid of that music......lol 

Actually looks good.  


Sorry I was playing with the "audio swap" feature in youtube, but didn't know its a permanent thing.


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Posted By: razortt
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by ohhgourami ohhgourami wrote:

I'll agree that your swing is a bit big, but it only needs to be a bit shorter.  And yes your follow through is slightly too big; try to keep the blade from passing the right side of your face.  The main reasons why you have these problem seems to be an issue in being able to get power from your stroke.  It actually looks like you're using more effort than you should be but the output isn't quite there.  This is from your lack of body rotation which is also directly caused by your right leg.

Come to think of it, you seem to see all your own problems Clap

What kind of rubber are you using on fh?  I'd need to know in order to adjust your stroke appropriately to get the most power out of the rubber.


I was using BTY T64 FH(normally i have t05 as FH, during taping, i was using t64 just for fun) , and I felt you hit on something that I felt for a while. A lot of effort, but the output wasn't quite there.

1) Back swing too much
2) Lethargic right foot
3) Follow through is too much, need to keep it short
4) Waist rotation problem
5) Less foot hopping





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Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 12:49pm
Hopping?

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Posted By: razortt
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Hopping?


Yeah, Erika spotted that my foot was hopping a bit.


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Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 4:00pm
I don't see anything wrong with the back swing though.  That how you get the power from, the more swing before contact the better (more momentum, and force), if you feel that you do not get the power out from what you put in, then it may be just the timing, you do not accelerate and contact the ball at the right time.  From the video, looks like you are doing 'control' loop though, so it's OK.  If you meant to generate more power, then yes you need to accelerate more on you stroke than what shown on the video.


Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 8:11pm
hmm you should use your wrist and try a more forward motion when looping topspin balls.. also close your bat angle a lil bit more like 30 degrees

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Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 9:18pm
In my opinion the drilling development level is quite good.
 
to improve and i would say as always when one is developing strokes quite good, the footwork to position the arm a little more open with the blade angle more closed over the ball because there is no back spin return. this would be that way with a classic rubber. however with tenergy the angle of the blade is going to be higher getting the grip of the rubber to help. so it is difficult to say. just a little bit further the body from the ball.
 
but in general quite well.


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Posted By: Kolev
Date Posted: 04/15/2010 at 10:02pm
You know what you're capable of, but I think you're on the right track.Your move is good, follow trough is very OK, back swing is just perfect. I've only noticed that among your shots you had a few perfect ones, (still maintaining the same speed)where your wrist and body were absolutely relaxed,perfectly whipping the ball and producing noticeably more speed and spin.For even more power, my coach is teaching me to tighten my abdominal muscles(only) exactly at the moment of impact with the ball.Maybe that will help you too for producing more consistent power

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Posted By: pipigrande
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 12:02am
To be honest,I didn't see anything wrong other than the hopping. Just make sure that at the moment of contact with the ball, you are planted on the floor.

Also, your arm stays too long up there. Just follow through and get ready for next shot asap.


Posted By: Jolan
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 12:22am

What's wrong ? Frankly, not much...If you really want to find something wrong, I could say your arm stays up a little bit too long. It could come down a tad faster and enable you to save some time. Also you could hit the ball a bit sooner and fronter. That provides more power and a flater trajectory. Otherwise it is already very good.



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Posted By: loop+loop
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 2:36am
Basically nothing wrong. What's wrong is that you are analysing too much.
 
You really want to know what's wrong, just try out in games and see if you have the time to analyse that much.
 
Most importanly just enjoy the game.


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 6:24am
Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Hopping?


Yeah, Erika spotted that my foot was hopping a bit.
 You mean leaving the ground? well as long as your weight is transferring correctly (which it is superbly) it matters not. I think the topic starter is leading people to assume they need to offer you advice on your technique, IMO your technique is sound anyway, you have a good template, you just need to practice as much as you can. I coach an awful lot, I have my own coaching school, and I find it hard to spot anything at all wrong with your technique that is important, and the things that are such as stroke recovery, will improve naturally as your game matures.

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Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 6:49am
Looks good to me, maybe try to transfer your weight forward and not to the side, causing you to hop to the left. 


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 9:27am
I just read a book from PATT where the author claims that the concept of "weight transfer" is a pervasive mis-coaching.  He says that the legs perform two functions:
 
1) to get your body in position to create the correct "ball to body relationship"
 
2) to provide a stable and balanced base from which to swing.
 
He says that the concept of using your legs to get power isn't realistic...better to focus on getting in position and then getting your forearm snap.  He goes on to say that the concept of weight-transfer from back to front foot will only leave you off balance to recover from the next shot.
 
I found it interesting, as this was different than I had always heard.
 
On the video, I feel like the guy's wrist and racket angle doesn't alwasy remain constant through the stroke.  Not that mine would be any better.  And I noticed right away what has been already pointed out.  That he needs to step back a bit with the behind foot so he's not so parallel tothe table and taking the ball beside his body instead of out in front.
 
Again to reference the book, if you put both your arms in front of you and touch your fingers, you create a triangle.  The middle of this triangle is where you should be hitting the ball.  Both in terms of hitting on the line that goes from your fingers to your chest, and in terms of the closeness to your body being halfway out to your fingers.
 
This implies that your body should be perpendicular to the direction you're wanting to hit the ball.  So you would need to take a big step back with your back foot.  It also implies that you should take the ball out in front of your body, not beside your body as you're tending to do.
 
So I'm not saying I do this.  This is just what I'm working on now based on what I just read.


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Posted By: patrick1v
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 9:40am
hey dont worry about back swing seems not that big many palyers with a bigger backswing just need to stop hopping on the loop this should only be done on kill shots when you would not be expecting a return ball.use your legs to push your body in a forward motion going towards your partner(hence weight transfer).does not have to be a big forward leg motion.remember more arm speed means more power


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 9:53am
Esp since he seems to be hopping back, away from the shot.  That can't be good.

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Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 9:54am
The concept of weight transfer giving power maybe is old hat, but there is no doubt that particularly when playing a F/hand drive, the centre of gravity of the torso is shifted forward by the very nature of the stroke, and the smooth transfer between legs ensures a forward motion, the weight terminating on the left foot (r/hander) ensures a positive base to recover from and move.
 Who is 'PATT'?

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Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 9:57am
But if you think about it, it really doesn't have to be.  If your upper body is balance between the legs, it can rotate without leaning forward.  And having your weight too much on one foot HURTS mobility, no matter what sport you're in.  What if you have to move to your left?  It can't help to have your left foot planted.
 
I was a little skeptical at first, but the more I think about it the more I agree with the patt author on this one.


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Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 10:06am
I actually think that having your weight on 1 foot (instead of both) help you move quicker.


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 10:08am
Depends on which way you have to move, right? Actually, I'm going to say that having too much weight on one foot is called "being off balance" and is almost always bad in sports.  Well, it wouldn't hurt in golf or baseball because the swing is pretty much the end of the motion. 

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Posted By: Skyline
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 10:41am
nothing wrong with your loop.


Posted By: razortt
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 11:50am
Originally posted by pipigrande pipigrande wrote:

To be honest,I didn't see anything wrong other than the hopping. Just make sure that at the moment of contact with the ball, you are planted on the floor.

Also, your arm stays too long up there. Just follow through and get ready for next shot asap.


True! My arm arm stays too long up there, thanks for catching that. I always thought the follow through looks funny , i think the arm also stay too long because of that.


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Posted By: razortt
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 12:02pm
Thanks all for your tips and suggestion, you pointed out some very valid points.

1) Back swing too much
2) Lethargic right foot
3) Follow through is too much, need to keep it short
4) Waist rotation problem, right foot needs to be a little back
5) Less foot hopping
6) Arm stay up there too long, need to get back to ready position faster
7) Ball needs to be a bit more to the side of body, not in front when hitting
(inside the triangle)
8) Need more consistent stroke
9) Placement needs improvement
10)Consistent wrist and racket angle



This should be a good long list for me to work on, hopefully I will have a before and after video to post here. Maybe a few months to get this right.

Thanks all , you guys are great!!!


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Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 12:11pm
Now make sure you run through that checklist each time before you serve or return serve! :)
I would add, racket angle consistent through stroke and consistent plane of stroke.  I feel like sometimes you're trying to come over the ball during the stroke.  Not always, but sometimes.

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Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 12:23pm
Well, it's a practice so naturally you expect the ball to come back around your right corner and everything - so the critique about too much back swing and follow-through is almost pointless. However, generally, as you progress, you need to work on recovery - that is returning your racket to a relatively neutral position a tad faster. Again, in 20 secs of practice loops I cannot say anything bad about your footwork, because the exercise doesn't call for you to change your stance.

Just try (gradually) to hit it faster, to get more varied returns from your sparring partner (if he can) and then you will see much more clearly what is lacking.


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Posted By: razortt
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Now make sure you run through that checklist each time before you serve or return serve! :)
I would add, racket angle consistent through stroke and consistent plane of stroke.  I feel like sometimes you're trying to come over the ball during the stroke.  Not always, but sometimes.



Its like a pre-flight check, so much to think about, so little time to react to fast incoming ball! Sleepy


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Posted By: razortt
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Well, it's a practice so naturally you expect the ball to come back around your right corner and everything - so the critique about too much back swing and follow-through is almost pointless. However, generally, as you progress, you need to work on recovery - that is returning your racket to a relatively neutral position a tad faster. Again, in 20 secs of practice loops I cannot say anything bad about your footwork, because the exercise doesn't call for you to change your stance.

Just try (gradually) to hit it faster, to get more varied returns from your sparring partner (if he can) and then you will see much more clearly what is lacking.


Thats very true, the recovery part needs lots of improvement, and I already know how to fix that. My coach been telling me that but I just don't believe it until i see it on video. ouch!


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Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

But if you think about it, it really doesn't have to be.  If your upper body is balance between the legs, it can rotate without leaning forward.  And having your weight too much on one foot HURTS mobility, no matter what sport you're in.  What if you have to move to your left?  It can't help to have your left foot planted.
 
I was a little skeptical at first, but the more I think about it the more I agree with the patt author on this one.
 Your weight should only be on either foot momentarily, not 'planted'
Have a look at this guy, he seems to know what he's doing...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA74UCFmru0&feature=PlayList&p=6F67CAA35BBB0D68&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=41 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA74UCFmru0&feature=PlayList&p=6F67CAA35BBB0D68&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=41


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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/16/2010 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

[QUOTE=razortt] [QUOTE=APW46] I think the topic starter is leading people to assume they need to offer you advice on your technique, IMO your technique is sound anyway, you have a good template, you just need to practice as much as you can. I coach an awful lot, I have my own coaching school, and I find it hard to spot anything at all wrong with your technique that is important, and the things that are such as stroke recovery, will improve naturally as your game matures.


I agree.  Actually, razortt looks to have reached a sufficient level that problems only become obvious when they have to move or make transitions to get to a ball they want to loop. 


Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 04/17/2010 at 2:37am
+1000000 to baal.

now that you have the basic stroke in...it's time to do a 2 point drill (bh corner and mid table). basically loop the balls from both of those positions and work on the footwork and see how it feels when you get stressed/rushed.

ps: or you can focus on adding more power to the shots now =)


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Posted By: debraj
Date Posted: 04/17/2010 at 2:50am
Here's someone hungry for appreciation!!!

okay you have a decent loop...
1. but with your wrist bent you are asking for shoulder and wrist injury and early retirement.
2. with that much closed blade angle, under pressure situation... i guess you might be missing the ball quite often.

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Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 04/18/2010 at 3:47am
I disagree with PATT on weight transfer.  If you only use your legs for a steady base and rotate from the waiste or hips, you motion follows an arc around your body.  By adding weight transfer you can not only add power to the shot, but you lengthen your stroke in a linear fashion, which increases the consistency of stroke.  And it certainly seems that when I study videos of top pros, they use weight transfer whenever they have the opportunity.
 
Now, having said all that, I would like to comment on razortt's footwork and weight transfer.  Like most people, I think his stroke looks pretty good and just needs more practice.  However, that footwork/weight transfer looks weird, and that's why some people talked about "hopping" and others talked about "draggin the right foot."  What I see is that instead of a smooth shifting of weight back and forth (where he should keep his balance at all times), he sort of rests on his back (right) foot and then jumps forward onto his left foot.  That's why the right foot drags: because he "sits" on it.  And the hopping appears because he then pushes off with the back foot in a sort of jump onto the front (left) foot.
 
Then I thought about why this might be occuring and it seems to me he's focusing too much on trying to perfect his FH stroke in isolation from the rest of the game.  I mean, if he practiced his FH stroke in drills that require a lot of footwork, he'd be forced to keep his balance more even, which would prevent the whole dragging/hopping thing.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/18/2010 at 4:00am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Nothing. I'm sure it will develop into a well defined asset to your game as it progresses. You could squeeze yrself some extra time by recovering instantly instead of in sync with the rally tempo.

yep;
also try to have some elliptical stroke so your fh does not end into zero speed. the idea is to take advantage of the momentum of your fh to come back and get ready for whatever; for that elliptical shape to happen the upper body will bend a bit to the left.
that article about connection between strokes was so cool!!! where is it?


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