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What else is needed to beat the Chinese?

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icontek View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2009 at 9:36am
The posts in this thread that are macroscopic and deal with national infrastructure, coaching and training are correct.

The posts that are microscopic and deal with individual strokes and players are missing the forest for the trees.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttpt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2009 at 2:19pm
I think the key is still funding. In this materialistic world, money produces results, and China provides whatever funding required to produce top TT players.

It is just that simple. Funding can buy top training. Funding can lure dedicated players. Funding can even maybe create a popular professional sports, if the funding last long enough (in China, it has lasted more than 30 years.)

For players who enjoy TT as a sport for themselves, there is always room to improve one's skill. That itself is the merit. Why bother worrying about beating the Chinese.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwu168 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2009 at 3:56pm
Style must be changed. Asians have agility but are not as strong as europeans. Why not capitalize on your strength like Wang Liqin. Since you cant move as fast as the chinese, hit hard like wang liqin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yassermuslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2009 at 6:34pm
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Money

I believe the Chinese put a lot of investment into sports in general and TT in particular. Parents and juniors believe that TT is a very good career with financial security.

Please watch this video carefully and note Oh Sang awesome style to trim Hao claws.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2009 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by zwu168 zwu168 wrote:

Style must be changed. Asians have agility but are not as strong as europeans. Why not capitalize on your strength like Wang Liqin. Since you cant move as fast as the chinese, hit hard like wang liqin


I think this is a common misconception; and hope the folks with a physics background will back me up.

Have you ever noticed that most professional TT players look more like runners than weightlifters?

The speed of the bat at impact (or sum of forces from foot, knee, hip, torso, shoulder, elbow and wrist) is what determines the force imparted to the ball.

It's the reason that burly 300 lb Scandanavians who routinely compete at "World's Strongest Man" competitions can't necessarily hit the ball faster than a 5'9 130 lb string bean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wealthweb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2009 at 1:29am
To overcome the Chinese, the non-Chinese players must come up with a good variety of tricky serves that are way superior over the Chinese serves. When we start playing ping pong as kids without getting any proper training from a professional coach, we always emphasis on creating tricky serves to surprise the opponent in order to keep winning. Kids don't lie. Their mind set is natural and their instinct is truthful. Go with the flow. It is time to learn some Tai Chi in order to understand the Chinese players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saif Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2009 at 3:40am
Here is the youtube video of chinese men's team warm up-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjDuRMqv9ZI

Look for yourself the difference. Plz share with us what way did you find to beat these awesome robots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yassermuslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/18/2009 at 10:39pm
I am not sure how much money the pros make, but I believe when it becomes large enough for a decent living and retirement, this will attract more juniors to the game. In china where the government rules everything - correct me if I am wrong - they finance schools, training centers, national team. Sports in china is a dream for youngsters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 729 FX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2009 at 4:34am
TT is a very technical sports (which sports isn't?). What else is there needed to beat the Chinese?
 
Well, we need to analyse the TT game as a whole. We never think enough on how to improve the technique of the strokes and the development of the play. That�s why many times the training is oriented to improve the ability to make as less mistakes as possible, forgetting that, also in routine trainings, the true quality to research is the technique and its deep analysis.
 
When we get into a mistake, there are 2 reasons
1) wrong evaluation of the ball (objective) 
2) technical mistake (subjective).
The choices we make in a match, (or in the training ), always come as a result of of our choices which depends on what we really see and perceive. In the most cases we didn�t see the ball, so we made a wrong evaluation, hence the mistake.
 
Let's analyse the European style of play. In my opinion, Europe is paying the price for two mistakes:
1) laziness at work which accumulated from the mid-80�s, that is the importation of many foreign players weakened the continental history instead of enriching the technical rate, as the Europeans thought. It should be interesting to know the number of the Asian (majority are Chinese) players, that made Europe their permanent home are aplenty. Instead of enriching themselves from the technical point of view, allowing the local choaches to grow for a new training education and study of the technique, they prefered to let the improvement of many clubs and and national teams as it is.

2) the backhand stroke play. In the past 2 decades, the play became not just faster, but also more powerful, thanks to glues(now banned already) and to more and more perfect training methodologies, too. And that�s why the gap between Asia and Europe become even more clear, because, whereas the Chinese players, traditionally penholders that always played without backhand, developed the legs movement technique at the serve and an effective forehand play, the European players, on the contrary, continued to pursue the balance between forehand and backhand, thinking that a more centred position at the table should be more winning in comparison with the Asiatic one, definitely more shifted to the backhand angle of the table.
As history has it, in 1979 the Hungarian players promoted a short play and powerful backhand and forehand strokes with an almost extended arm. During the following years, the Swedish players developed a psychologically perfect management of the game together with really unique individual features (Waldner, Appelgren,Persson). In addition to that Gatien introduces his excessively forehand play.

What kind of damage does the backhand produce? Maintaining the position of the arm almost always more bent(European) , the waiting position, exactly for its features of balance between forehand and backhand play, creates problems related to reaction. The consequence of a too much bent arm leads to the execution of the forehand in a too blocked way: this doesn�t let the shoulder, that is the real propeller in ping-pong, do his work of push. Besides, a bent arm affected the peripheral quickness, contracting the stroke and reducing it to something more than a topspin opening of the game.
Examine the moments of the impact with the ball in Chinese/Korean players. Their common technical feature is the absence of the backhand in all its TT history.
Today Europe has no chances against Asia, as most European style has short, limited movements, with a very small participation of the shoulder and of the trunk while the Chinese/Korean has large movements with a total support of the shoulder and with the push of the body.

The Chinese has specialization , that is to operate a system of training in which the first target is to end the play with a forehand stroke, and it doesn�t matter in what kind of situation one find oneself in, the backhand stroke is considered an exception of the play and a bother for the opponent. To reach this target one must have powerful legs, muscle tone, and explosiveness.

Sorry if the above comment is too long winded.
(Most of the notes are extracted from elsewhere)
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2009 at 2:04pm
Great comments, but despite these things you've mentioned. How do you explain intermittent successes of European players.

Boll showed excellent performance in Qatar. Samsonov remains in #6 ( although not advancing, but he is not pushed lower )...

Most people on the top 20 are Asian origin, but there are great european players out there. Can't dismiss them as unskillful, even with their backhands and transitions, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ciprian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2009 at 3:36pm
If I don't mistake,Chinese learnt table tennis from Europeans.So the student beat his teacher.What else is needed it to beat chinese players? Another theacher!Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ibupro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2009 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

Great comments, but despite these things you've mentioned. How do you explain intermittent successes of European players...


The Chinese have the best system, and have chosen the best general style, for consistently producing champion caliber players.
This is not the only way to win however, and so others will win also.

But don't forget that Boll adjusted to the speed glue ban better and more quickly than most of his peers.
We have yet to see what will be the new order of things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zrrbiteDK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2009 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by yassermuslim yassermuslim wrote:

While watching this video, I was wondering what else is needed to beat Chinese. Is it skill, speed, tactics, fitness, power, concentration? I believe it's all there. However these two players are far in the ranking and always underdogs.

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Off topic, but let me just say that... that was one of the most entertaining matches i've seen in a long long time. Wow!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwu168 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2009 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by zwu168 zwu168 wrote:

Style must be changed. Asians have agility but are not as strong as europeans. Why not capitalize on your strength like Wang Liqin. Since you cant move as fast as the chinese, hit hard like wang liqin


I think this is a common misconception; and hope the folks with a physics background will back me up.

Have you ever noticed that most professional TT players look more like runners than weightlifters?

The speed of the bat at impact (or sum of forces from foot, knee, hip, torso, shoulder, elbow and wrist) is what determines the force imparted to the ball.

It's the reason that burly 300 lb Scandanavians who routinely compete at "World's Strongest Man" competitions can't necessarily hit the ball faster than a 5'9 130 lb string bean.
Your example is bit of extreme but I only speak of asians and europeans in general. Europeans are significantly stronger, ever wonder why no Asians play american football? Even if this is a misconception, I can still refer to the style again. Europeans are into long, mid distance rallies while CHinese do full arm extension looping. I dont know why anyone would prolong the reallies when they can kill in 2-3 hits. Sure european style may be more appealing on TV but winning a game requires practicality. Oh i forgot to add that europeans is usually backhand dominant which i believe should be changed. Forehand allows for greater range of motion, which means you can get more momentum when you swing. Forehand is more flexible and poewr is transfered easily to the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PongPong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2009 at 9:12pm

If your government would fund tons of money for this sport to attract thousands of kids to play TT, if you can sacrifice your personal life dedicating tons of hours to practice, for sure you will have a chance to beat Chinese. The Chinese players are not another kind of animals, neither born good TT players.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liXiao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2009 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by zwu168 zwu168 wrote:

Style must be changed. Asians have agility but are not as strong as europeans. Why not capitalize on your strength like Wang Liqin. Since you cant move as fast as the chinese, hit hard like wang liqin


I think this is a common misconception; and hope the folks with a physics background will back me up.

Have you ever noticed that most professional TT players look more like runners than weightlifters?

The speed of the bat at impact (or sum of forces from foot, knee, hip, torso, shoulder, elbow and wrist) is what determines the force imparted to the ball.

It's the reason that burly 300 lb Scandanavians who routinely compete at "World's Strongest Man" competitions can't necessarily hit the ball faster than a 5'9 130 lb string bean.


Kenta Matsudaira weighs like 120 lbs lol. He is the thinnest athlete ever imo. Now in regards to Liqin vs. Schlager, Liqin's ball velocity was twice that of schlager's. Also note that schlager really seemed to dick around in that point and didnt really try to finish it, but Liqin was smart, got back, and made sure he got the point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 729 FX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2009 at 5:09am
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

Great comments, but despite these things you've mentioned. How do you explain intermittent successes of European players.

Boll showed excellent performance in Qatar. Samsonov remains in #6 ( although not advancing, but he is not pushed lower )...

Most people on the top 20 are Asian origin, but there are great european players out there. Can't dismiss them as unskillful, even with their backhands and transitions, etc.
 
In anything, there is bound to be some exception, that is teh "intermitten success" of European players. Boll, like Waldner went to China for training sometime back and acquire some knowledge and experience on how the Chinese approach the game. Therefore he is able to match the Chinese, but in team event his team will still come up 2nd (in my opinion) as there is no depth there. Can Samsonov climb to #1? Look at Ma Lin, 7 years ago where was he in TT world ranking and he has climbed to #1. Now I believe it is Wang Hao's turn to be #1.
 
BTW, I am not saying the European as unskill but just share a thought that the way the game progressed makes the European game more difficult to catch up with the Chinese.
 
No offense, Leshxa.
 
Cheers. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2009 at 7:07am
Originally posted by zrrbiteDK zrrbiteDK wrote:

Originally posted by yassermuslim yassermuslim wrote:

While watching this video, I was wondering what else is needed to beat Chinese. Is it skill, speed, tactics, fitness, power, concentration? I believe it's all there. However these two players are far in the ranking and always underdogs.

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Re,


Off topic, but let me just say that... that was one of the most entertaining matches i've seen in a long long time. Wow!


the long rallies i liked, even if there was no variation to them LOL
i lost my racquet

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2009 at 9:15am
Originally posted by 729 FX 729 FX wrote:

 
No offense, Leshxa.
 


None taken. I like underdogs though. I think someday somebody from Europe may surprize the chinese again. Perhaps even startle them.

A man can dream, right? I dream for world of TT to be more competitive among more different world nations.

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yassermuslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2009 at 5:19pm
We don't need to send players to china but coaches and officials. The later approach will enable us to build a better system and have more depth, don't you think so?
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We need more resources to finance our game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thylacine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2009 at 5:26pm

Luck. You can beat a better player only with luck...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 729 FX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2009 at 11:07pm
To sum up on what is needed to beat the Chinese - send players (for exposure) as well as coaches and officials. This will enable the nation to build a better system and have more depth + luck (as suggested by thylacine),
 
BTW, I also love the underdogs, not necessary from Europe, can be from the Americas, Asia, Australia or even Africa to match the Chinese.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2009 at 3:03am

 

 
I dont know where i read that the chinese have like 12 scientists working full time to table tennis research and US team that made phelps a star only has 2 scientists
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GBtabletennis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2009 at 6:50am
Make a draw of every table tennis player their weakness points.

Some years ago, top 50 players did that. Waldner and Persson were the only one who has a empty draw. No weakness!

Waldner and Persson can beat Chinese players.. 10 years ago..=)

We need some fresh Waldners and Perssons, to beat the Chinese.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shortpips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2009 at 10:33am
The same question could be ask in basketball, what else is needed to beat the NBA? and they start to answer the question by join the NBA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Recanter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2009 at 12:11pm
The only way anyone is going to beat the Chinese is if the national team as a "whole" gets stronger. This has 2 main advantages.

1. Stronger training partners e.g. Malin training with WLQ and Ma Long and Hao Shuai etc...

2. More stronger players mean more chances at knocking the competition out of the major events: World Championships e.g. Michael Maze had to beat ... Wang Hao and then Hao Shuai and then Ma Lin AND then Wang Liqin! To win the world championships... (All Chinese)

I think Timo Boll recently beat 3 of them in a row in order to win some title.


In conclusion, the only chance would be for someone like... Waldner, Schlager or Persson, Timo Boll, Samsonov to open a school for all of Europe to come together and train against each other. Its gotta be like Europe vs China at this point. Waiting for individual prodigy's to wipe China out is unrealistic, since China has more people and therefore a greater probability of getting talent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote figgie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2009 at 2:14pm
Just thought about this and a thought occured to me.
 What is needed to beat the Chinese?

Make table tennis as we know it today, OBSOLETE.
 
"How Figgie?" is what you are asking. Quite simple. Budweiser already has the answer and made thier move. Big money and bam, now you have people wanting a piece of that proverbial pie. And the $100,000 was just this time around, I would not be surprised to see $500,000 for next and probably climb to $1 Million dollars with the correct sponsors (I am talking Nike, Toyota, Addidas, Budweiser (yes I know again), Visa or MasterCard, etc etc) it is totaly doable.
 
And in one fell swoop, budweiser accomplished what the USATT could not do, bring big money, Marketing, exposure, and make the chinese dominance irrelevant as it becomes a different game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote takaaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2009 at 2:45pm
what else is needed??  how about liu guoliang or kong linghui as your coach!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GBtabletennis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2009 at 3:49pm
Maybe you need Waldner& Persson as coach + trainer.
Perhaps they could produce a 'European Robot' to beat the 'Chinese Robots'.

All factors of table tennis is need to beat the Chinese... But who can help you with it to do that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ozjan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2009 at 4:51pm
Watch and study video of Waldner, Gatien, and Schlager in their primes.  Something all the above players had in common was when they attacked, it was either very uncomfortable, unpredictable, powerful, or a combo of them all for the opponent.
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