Ma Long serve training

Not sure if anyone posted this yet but saw it on youtube and thought it's really nice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT-8iPeHoKg&feature=related

The slo-mo at 1:25 clearly shows that it is an illegal serve.

The disguise on his last couple of serves is really excellent. Now I've got something new to try. :)

Those serves are perfectly legal.

NoFootwork wrote: Skyline wrote: I'm sure there is loads of variation in those services but them being one and two bounced doesn't look that spectacular. Yes, not spectacular at all until you consider how well they are disguised, low bounce making attack difficult, ability to place it anywhere on the table and ability to follow up with a huge 3rd ball if opponent's return is not extremely good.

 

it's legal. YOu can cover anytime but when your racket contact the ball. At that time, receiver has to see the ball and racket from you.

If the opponent has the same view as the camera, then there are some illegal hidden serves in there and I would complain to the umpire. But its probably the camera angle that makes it look like he's hiding the serve.

thats funny cuz its at the exact point when he makes contact with the ball that he hides it with his non playing arm

Put this guy on the illegal server list: Christophe Legout.   Just like Lee Jung Woo, throwing the ball, but not straight.

JKC wrote: The slo-mo at 1:25 clearly shows that it is an illegal serve.

I watched the slow-mo 3 times. The ball is visible to me (at the angle of that cam) from the toss to the contact, except maybe 0.05 sec hidden behind his nose, you're gonna call that illegal? He could of done it more cleanly and removed his free arm faster after the toss, and I think there might be a rule that requires to remove the free arm right after the toss, but I don't see most pros do that, which makes sense because the toss has a follow-through, too.

u guys are all too good as players to judge:)

I think the rules are sensible.  They should have enforced it in stead of going by the common practice.  Check the 2.6.6x rules, the umpire can call a let and subsequently a violation, base on a "doubt", and there are plenty to be doubtful about in these half hidden serves.

This is the opposite of U.S. laws.  You have to proof that you are not guilty.  And if there is any doubt, you can be assumed guilty.

FireHorse wrote: JKC wrote: The slo-mo at 1:25 clearly shows that it is an illegal serve. I think I agree with you on this.  Other serves are not but this one particular type of serve is somehow illegal. One thing that I do not like about the no-hidden serves rule is that the referee cannot tell if it's hidden or not from where he/she sits or stands.  It does look to the referee that the server removes the non-playing arm at contact but to the receiver, it probably not. I have a lefty in my club that he throws the ball a little behind his body and even though he removes his non-playing arm at contact, it's still hidden but if someone stands on the side facing him, he/she will say that it's perfectly legal. It's somehow a disadvantage to players who follow the rules.  I read somewhere that in 2-serve games with 11 points, serving becomes important, and if nobody enforces the rules, the players with "legal" hidden-serves will have the upper hand.  In the recent 2010 Qatar Open, I believe that the serves of Lee Jung Woo in the game against Ryu Seung Min are clearly illegal but he did not get any penalty. I think ITTF should just remove the no-hidden serve rules because I guess it's one part of the game.  Recently, nobody enforces that rule at all and it might become an issue if the referee cannot tell.  I guess, they will need to have two other assistant referees to stay in the back of the court and it will be a big problem because now they will need to have 4 referees for one court. FireHorse

that serve is not hidden--to a right-hander standing at the backhand, which, if you notice is the exact viewpoint of the camera.

but it may be hidden to a lefthander standing at the backhand, though.  so, technically the serve may be illegal, but you can serve "illegally" and have the ball still visible to the receiver from start to finish, provided the receiver plays with the same hand as you.

as for umpires, i do believe they have a clear enough view to tell whether a serve is illegal or not.

as for the serve above, the sticking point is the rule that the hand or free arm cannot be between the ball and the net.

cuz if you throw the ball back, but away from your body, you can have your hand or free arm between the ball and net, yet still have the ball visible to an opponent who plays with the same hand.

that said, i see a lot of illegality and what i think is happening is what happened a long time ago--the serve was not supposed to be hidden before, but the umps simply did not enforce the rule.

for example, at the qatar open, i happened to see primorac's match and i was shocked to see him actually have the free arm in front of the ball (on his forehand serve).  it was clear as day yet the umps said nothing.

also, i see a lot of people tossing the ball over the table and that's illegal as well.

that said, none of these violations of the rule are really all that serious.  remember, most of the pros learned the game before fall 2003 when hidden serves were banned (again), so they are used to the ball being hidden, or another way of saying it is that most servers are just simply not doing anything so special on the serve that hiding it would make much of a difference.

and as for tossing the ball over the table, you're not gonna really gain much of an advantage if your hand is just a little over the table on the toss, especially if, again, you're not doing anything with the serve.

anyhow, i think the players are just gonna violate the rule anyway, and the umps are not going to enforce it, so, unofficially at least, the no-hidden serve rule is gonna change.

It doesn't matter whether the ball is visible to a right hander or to the camera, the fact is that his hand not removed as soon as the ball is projected. In fact it is still in this space at the time of contact. Just pause the vid at the correct time and it is obvious. 

sebas-aguirre wrote: the serves don't seem all that wonderful...

Really? How often do you see Ma Long's opponents doing a very strong 2nd ball attack. How often do you see Ma Long being able to strongly attack on 3rd ball to win or control the point. If his serves weren't all that wonderful what do you think you would see on 2nd and 3rd ball?

Regarding legality of serves, pros will push the rules as much as they can until they get called by the umpire. The camera angle here is irrelevant. Only relevant angle is the umpire's and how strictly the umpire is implementing the serve rules.