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Body-Turn to improve Topspin by CHN coach's lesson

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    Posted: 03/07/2019 at 5:21am
https://youtu.be/9QtHtgGNBtI

Two Chinese Women coaches visit to S.Korea.

and I'd asked to them teach my TT friends in Korea.
This is the video for this.

Please enjoy it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 10:30am
This is a technique that is really hard to master. Most people just swing their arms. Many who try to body-turn end up looking strange and are really not doing it effectively. There's a skinny kid in my club who hits heavy and more powerful than anyone and it's because he's mastered this body-turn. 

Edited by vik2000 - 03/09/2019 at 12:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 11:24am
Shadow practice!!!

My kind of coaches.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dream1700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 11:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

This is a technique that is really hard to master. Most people just seeing their arms. Many who try to body-turn end up looking strange and are really not doing it effectively. There's a skinny kid in my club who hits heavy and more powerful than anyone and it's because he's mastered this body-turn. 

I'm trying it out too, my first introduction was in the Japanese video mickd translated, it's an active use of the rotation at the hip and not so much the thighs. It's not very intuitive to be honest, but the shots I hit when doing this hip turn was significantly more powerful than my normal shots. The recovery is really straightforward too because you recover directly to the ready position. Sadly my brain still needs to program this addition to my stroke!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2019 at 12:10am
Looks like good, standard technique to me. Are there coaches who don't teach some kind of forehand hip turn?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2019 at 1:10am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

If I understand what they mean, they are talking about the quick explosiveness of the hips on top of the playing leg push. The legs and weight transfer are still the base of everything, those coaches add on top a well timed hips extension, a springy hips reflex, it's another component in the description of the stroke mechanics. 

edit: the key word is description. Before, the accent was less put on the hips even if they were important, the hips were building on the legs momentum. Now, the hips want to slingshot off the legs work, like a gravity assist, the hips are becoming active and central.


Yes, the key difference is the active use of the hips to drive the stroke. A body rotation can be exactly the same visually but without the explosiveness that the active hip rotation allows. I think it's gonna take me some time to get the hang of it though...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranger-man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2019 at 12:21pm
My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2019 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)

Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2019 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)

Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 

I find it interesting that with this level and quality of experience you confidently pronounced your opinions on rubber and blade speeds as law.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranger-man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2019 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)


Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 


I find it interesting that with this level and quality of experience you confidently pronounced your opinions on rubber and blade speeds as law.


When did I ever imply or state anything as if it was law? And why should I lack confidence in my opinion about a blade or rubber that I have played with just because I never had a coach? A lot of my techniques may not be perfect but I can put enough backspin on the ball to make sure it never goes off the table. I can loop on both wings even if my action may not be a thing of beauty and yes I can move and cover both wings even if I am not as graceful as some. I can serve well enough and disguise it well enough to get complimented by a Korean coach who had come over to coach our national team and enough to confuse some of our top ranked players.

And just because I never had a coach does not mean I never learned. And how can you judge the quality of my experience just because I never got any coaching?

Some of the players I spent time with were nationally ranked. The gym I play at is run by a former Asian level player who was ranked in the top 100 in his prime. He is in his 50s now and the club was opened by his father when he was still a kid.

Some of the youngsters who started playing at this club when I started going there about 15 years ago are now ranked in the national top 10 and top 20.

It is a very small club, based on numbers so pretty much everyone knows everyone.

So how did I get to rub shoulders with these guys, international coaches etc. Because I am journalist and used to cover sports for many years so I used to write about these players, cover the tournaments, the training camps, etc.

So I was never just some guy who came over to dabble with the game. They all had time for me. I stopped covering sports but the friendships remained, and do so to this day. I have even attended some of their marriages, family funerals.

Maybe my technique is bad but that does not mean I cannot tell the difference between blades or rubbers. Or which rubber I can generate more spin with or which one has more arc or less. Or which setup is faster or slower. I stopped experimenting over the last few years and just stick to my main setup now. But I still love to try something new a player brings to the club, and like I said, they always have time for me.

Besides I had no idea you read my comments with that much interest and sorry of they rubbed you the wrong way. But guess what, you won't see them any more. I am going to just go to tabletennisdaily from now on.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2019 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

If I understand what they mean, they are talking about the quick explosiveness of the hips on top of the playing leg push. The legs and weight transfer are still the base of everything, those coaches add on top a well timed hips extension, a springy hips reflex, it's another component in the description of the stroke mechanics. 

edit: the key word is description. Before, the accent was less put on the hips even if they were important, the hips were building on the legs momentum. Now, the hips want to slingshot off the legs work, like a gravity assist, the hips are becoming active and central.


Yes, the key difference is the active use of the hips to drive the stroke. A body rotation can be exactly the same visually but without the explosiveness that the active hip rotation allows. I think it's gonna take me some time to get the hang of it though...

Just to add a tip which might help others, when I'm doing it correctly it feels like I'm compressing the fat on the sides of my body (love handles?) LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL


Edited by blahness - 03/09/2019 at 8:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2019 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)

Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 

I find it interesting that with this level and quality of experience you confidently pronounced your opinions on rubber and blade speeds as law.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 1:26am
Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)


Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 


I find it interesting that with this level and quality of experience you confidently pronounced your opinions on rubber and blade speeds as law.


When did I ever imply or state anything as if it was law? And why should I lack confidence in my opinion about a blade or rubber that I have played with just because I never had a coach? A lot of my techniques may not be perfect but I can put enough backspin on the ball to make sure it never goes off the table. I can loop on both wings even if my action may not be a thing of beauty and yes I can move and cover both wings even if I am not as graceful as some. I can serve well enough and disguise it well enough to get complimented by a Korean coach who had come over to coach our national team and enough to confuse some of our top ranked players.

And just because I never had a coach does not mean I never learned. And how can you judge the quality of my experience just because I never got any coaching?

Some of the players I spent time with were nationally ranked. The gym I play at is run by a former Asian level player who was ranked in the top 100 in his prime. He is in his 50s now and the club was opened by his father when he was still a kid.

Some of the youngsters who started playing at this club when I started going there about 15 years ago are now ranked in the national top 10 and top 20.

It is a very small club, based on numbers so pretty much everyone knows everyone.

So how did I get to rub shoulders with these guys, international coaches etc. Because I am journalist and used to cover sports for many years so I used to write about these players, cover the tournaments, the training camps, etc.

So I was never just some guy who came over to dabble with the game. They all had time for me. I stopped covering sports but the friendships remained, and do so to this day. I have even attended some of their marriages, family funerals.

Maybe my technique is bad but that does not mean I cannot tell the difference between blades or rubbers. Or which rubber I can generate more spin with or which one has more arc or less. Or which setup is faster or slower. I stopped experimenting over the last few years and just stick to my main setup now. But I still love to try something new a player brings to the club, and like I said, they always have time for me.

Besides I had no idea you read my comments with that much interest and sorry of they rubbed you the wrong way. But guess what, you won't see them any more. I am going to just go to tabletennisdaily from now on.


I was responding to Vik2000,  who when I told someone that Fastarc G1 may be too slow for a player ( whose style and level I know), responded that anyone who finds G1 with ZJK ALC too slow needs to check his technique.  I have no problem with anyone stating anything about table tennis if they provide some of their experience and background info on playing style, years of play and level so that people can get a handle on how much their posts may or may not apply.  I was just surprised that in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy that someone could not comprehend the possibility that a slightly slower rubber like G1 may not be to their liking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 11:10am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)


Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 


I find it interesting that with this level and quality of experience you confidently pronounced your opinions on rubber and blade speeds as law.


When did I ever imply or state anything as if it was law? And why should I lack confidence in my opinion about a blade or rubber that I have played with just because I never had a coach? A lot of my techniques may not be perfect but I can put enough backspin on the ball to make sure it never goes off the table. I can loop on both wings even if my action may not be a thing of beauty and yes I can move and cover both wings even if I am not as graceful as some. I can serve well enough and disguise it well enough to get complimented by a Korean coach who had come over to coach our national team and enough to confuse some of our top ranked players.

And just because I never had a coach does not mean I never learned. And how can you judge the quality of my experience just because I never got any coaching?

Some of the players I spent time with were nationally ranked. The gym I play at is run by a former Asian level player who was ranked in the top 100 in his prime. He is in his 50s now and the club was opened by his father when he was still a kid.

Some of the youngsters who started playing at this club when I started going there about 15 years ago are now ranked in the national top 10 and top 20.

It is a very small club, based on numbers so pretty much everyone knows everyone.

So how did I get to rub shoulders with these guys, international coaches etc. Because I am journalist and used to cover sports for many years so I used to write about these players, cover the tournaments, the training camps, etc.

So I was never just some guy who came over to dabble with the game. They all had time for me. I stopped covering sports but the friendships remained, and do so to this day. I have even attended some of their marriages, family funerals.

Maybe my technique is bad but that does not mean I cannot tell the difference between blades or rubbers. Or which rubber I can generate more spin with or which one has more arc or less. Or which setup is faster or slower. I stopped experimenting over the last few years and just stick to my main setup now. But I still love to try something new a player brings to the club, and like I said, they always have time for me.

Besides I had no idea you read my comments with that much interest and sorry of they rubbed you the wrong way. But guess what, you won't see them any more. I am going to just go to tabletennisdaily from now on.


I was responding to Vik2000,  who when I told someone that Fastarc G1 may be too slow for a player ( whose style and level I know), responded that anyone who finds G1 with ZJK ALC too slow needs to check his technique.  I have no problem with anyone stating anything about table tennis if they provide some of their experience and background info on playing style, years of play and level so that people can get a handle on how much their posts may or may not apply.  I was just surprised that in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy that someone could not comprehend the possibility that a slightly slower rubber like G1 may not be to their liking.

I'm harsh on myself for my techniques. We all have different standards. This doesn't mean I'm a newbie with no equipment knowledge or league experiences. I have no idea where you play but we don't live in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy. What in the hell are you even talking about? Mention booster in any table tennis forum and you get plenty of folks who are against it. I have used Acoustic blade with G1 and have asked the Chinese kid to take a swing with it. He delivers such a powerful stroke that the ball shoots way faster than I could using my HL5 with MX-P or ZJK ALC with R47. I have done the same for many other 2000+ players. I have hit with their equipment and I've asked them to hit with mine. More people need to do this if you have doubt about people lying about boosting. Yes, some are boosting but it's nowhere as close to what NextLevel is indicating. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure these things out. When we talk about speed and spin on this forum, we are all speaking in relative terms. But if a guy comes to me and says he finds ZJK ALC with G1 slow, boy it is clear that there is some issue with his technique. Unless you have been trained since early childhood in table tennis, which most people here haventh, you need to focus on getting coaching than blaming equipment. 

Now, my question is, do you have anything useful to add or has hitting table tennis ball every day impaired your ability to think? 


Edited by vik2000 - 03/10/2019 at 11:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:


I'm harsh on myself for my techniques. We all have different standards. This doesn't mean I'm a newbie with no equipment knowledge or league experiences. I have no idea where you play but we don't live in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy. What in the hell are you even talking about? Mention booster in any table tennis forum and you get plenty of folks who are against it. I have used Acoustic blade with G1 and have asked the Chinese kid to take a swing with it. He delivers such a powerful stroke that the ball shoots way faster than I could using my HL5 with MX-P or ZJK ALC with R47. I have done the same for many other 2000+ players. I have hit with their equipment and I've asked them to hit with mine. More people need to do this if you have doubt about people lying about boosting. Yes, some are boosting but it's nowhere as close to what NextLevel is indicating. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure these things out. When we talk about speed and spin on this forum, we are all speaking in relative terms. But if a guy comes to me and says he finds ZJK ALC with G1 slow, boy it is clear that there is some issue with his technique. Unless you have been trained since early childhood in table tennis, which most people here haventh, you need to focus on getting coaching than blaming equipment. 

Now, my question is, do you have anything useful to add or has hitting table tennis ball every day impaired your ability to think? 

I have no desire to be gratuitously rude, but it is clear my ability to think is not impaired.  The poster I was responding to was a trained junior (you could have read his profile where he referred to what he was using, which was a boosted Tenergy 05 Hard on his forehand and if you had been here longer, you would know he has tried other stuff).  Maybe not super high level, but not a slouch either.  Even with what you have written, you are mostly repeating what you think you see without having the technical insight to understand it.   You are unlikely to be at a level where you can form your own strong nuanced opinions of these things.  And even if you are at a higher level, the focus is always on your form and coaching, not equipment.

I play in the US, started receiving coaching and playing in tournaments since 2011, dealt with various physical impediments (autoimmune and degenerative arthritis), some of which have stopped me from playing, and have a rating high of 2100 (I still mostly play roughly around 2000 USATT, which I first hit in 2015).  I have a youtube channel where plenty of my play exists - I am trying to come back while accepting that some of my goals may be past me.  I am in this video.


I learned a long time ago after meeting some of the people on this forum who like to speak strongly about their opinions but share little about their play that many of the most vocal posters who I thought knew what they were talking about often played at a level where taking advice from them was dangerous because they were talking about stuff they didn't have broad enough experience to place into context.  It didn't mean they were wrong or right, just that they didn't know enough to be able to derive what they were saying in their experiences.  The better posters would share their background so you could place their experiences in context.

The only reason I bring this up is that you felt secure enough to comment and insult people whose playing level you didn't know.  To be fair enough, you are now sharing your background, which is good, but for whatever reason, you still feel the need to act like I am stupid.

If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/10/2019 at 12:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:


I'm harsh on myself for my techniques. We all have different standards. This doesn't mean I'm a newbie with no equipment knowledge or league experiences. I have no idea where you play but we don't live in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy. What in the hell are you even talking about? Mention booster in any table tennis forum and you get plenty of folks who are against it. I have used Acoustic blade with G1 and have asked the Chinese kid to take a swing with it. He delivers such a powerful stroke that the ball shoots way faster than I could using my HL5 with MX-P or ZJK ALC with R47. I have done the same for many other 2000+ players. I have hit with their equipment and I've asked them to hit with mine. More people need to do this if you have doubt about people lying about boosting. Yes, some are boosting but it's nowhere as close to what NextLevel is indicating. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure these things out. When we talk about speed and spin on this forum, we are all speaking in relative terms. But if a guy comes to me and says he finds ZJK ALC with G1 slow, boy it is clear that there is some issue with his technique. Unless you have been trained since early childhood in table tennis, which most people here haventh, you need to focus on getting coaching than blaming equipment. 

Now, my question is, do you have anything useful to add or has hitting table tennis ball every day impaired your ability to think? 

I have no desire to be gratuitously rude, but it is clear my ability to think is not impaired.  The poster I was responding to was a trained junior (you could have read his profile where he referred to what he was using, which was a boosted Tenergy 05 Hard on his forehand and if you had been here longer, you would know he has tried other stuff).  Maybe not super high level, but not a slouch either.  Even with what you have written, you are mostly repeating what you think you see without having the technical insight to understand it.   You are unlikely to be at a level where you can form your own strong nuanced opinions of these things.  And even if you are at a higher level, the focus is always on your form and coaching, not equipment.

I play in the US, started receiving coaching and playing in tournaments since 2011, dealt with various physical impediments (autoimmune and degenerative arthritis), some of which have stopped me from playing, and have a rating high of 2100 (I still mostly play roughly around 2000 USATT, which I first hit in 2015).  I have a youtube channel where plenty of my play exists - I am trying to come back while accepting that some of my goals may be past me.  I am in this video.


I learned a long time ago after meeting some of the people on this forum who like to speak strongly about their opinions but share little about their play that many of the most vocal posters who I thought knew what they were talking about often played at a level where taking advice from them was dangerous because they were talking about stuff they didn't have broad enough experience to place into context.  It didn't mean they were wrong or right, just that they didn't know enough to be able to derive what they were saying in their experiences.  The better posters would share their background so you could place their experiences in context.

The only reason I bring this up is that you felt secure enough to comment and insult people whose playing level you didn't know.  To be fair enough, you are now sharing your background, which is good, but for whatever reason, you still feel the need to act like I am stupid.

If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.

I'm gonna keep it simple here. Your background is irrelevant for our discussion here, but I do appreciate you creating videos to teach others. As for my background, you have no idea either. But I do compete in the highest division in my city with plenty of folks over 2,000 rating. I do like to stay humble and critique myself because I'm aware that I'll never reach a point where I'd be satisfied with my techniques and it motivates me to continuously improve. Never did I expect someone would read that comment and interpret it as I'm inexperienced to comment.

I'll say again, if a guy states he finds ZJK ALC with G1 setup slow, he needs to improve his ability to deliver a more powerful stroke. The equipment isn't the issue. You can swap that set up with whichever professional's faster set up and he'll still annihilate you. 


Edited by vik2000 - 03/10/2019 at 3:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:


I'm harsh on myself for my techniques. We all have different standards. This doesn't mean I'm a newbie with no equipment knowledge or league experiences. I have no idea where you play but we don't live in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy. What in the hell are you even talking about? Mention booster in any table tennis forum and you get plenty of folks who are against it. I have used Acoustic blade with G1 and have asked the Chinese kid to take a swing with it. He delivers such a powerful stroke that the ball shoots way faster than I could using my HL5 with MX-P or ZJK ALC with R47. I have done the same for many other 2000+ players. I have hit with their equipment and I've asked them to hit with mine. More people need to do this if you have doubt about people lying about boosting. Yes, some are boosting but it's nowhere as close to what NextLevel is indicating. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure these things out. When we talk about speed and spin on this forum, we are all speaking in relative terms. But if a guy comes to me and says he finds ZJK ALC with G1 slow, boy it is clear that there is some issue with his technique. Unless you have been trained since early childhood in table tennis, which most people here haventh, you need to focus on getting coaching than blaming equipment. 

Now, my question is, do you have anything useful to add or has hitting table tennis ball every day impaired your ability to think? 

I have no desire to be gratuitously rude, but it is clear my ability to think is not impaired.  The poster I was responding to was a trained junior (you could have read his profile where he referred to what he was using, which was a boosted Tenergy 05 Hard on his forehand and if you had been here longer, you would know he has tried other stuff).  Maybe not super high level, but not a slouch either.  Even with what you have written, you are mostly repeating what you think you see without having the technical insight to understand it.   You are unlikely to be at a level where you can form your own strong nuanced opinions of these things.  And even if you are at a higher level, the focus is always on your form and coaching, not equipment.

I play in the US, started receiving coaching and playing in tournaments since 2011, dealt with various physical impediments (autoimmune and degenerative arthritis), some of which have stopped me from playing, and have a rating high of 2100 (I still mostly play roughly around 2000 USATT, which I first hit in 2015).  I have a youtube channel where plenty of my play exists - I am trying to come back while accepting that some of my goals may be past me.  I am in this video.


I learned a long time ago after meeting some of the people on this forum who like to speak strongly about their opinions but share little about their play that many of the most vocal posters who I thought knew what they were talking about often played at a level where taking advice from them was dangerous because they were talking about stuff they didn't have broad enough experience to place into context.  It didn't mean they were wrong or right, just that they didn't know enough to be able to derive what they were saying in their experiences.  The better posters would share their background so you could place their experiences in context.

The only reason I bring this up is that you felt secure enough to comment and insult people whose playing level you didn't know.  To be fair enough, you are now sharing your background, which is good, but for whatever reason, you still feel the need to act like I am stupid.

If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.

I'm gonna keep it simple here. Your background is irrelevant for our discussion here, but I do appreciate you creating videos to teach others. As for my background, you have no idea either. But I do compete in the highest division in my city with plenty of folks over 2,000 rating. I do like to stay humble and critique myself because I'm aware that I'll never reach a point where I'd be satisfied with my techniques and it motivates me to continuously improve. Never did I expect someone would read that comment and interpret it as I'm inexperienced to comment.

I'll say again, if a guy states he finds ZJK ALC with G1 setup slow, he needs to improve his ability to deliver a more powerful stroke. The equipment isn't the issue. You can swap that set up with whichever professional's faster set up and he'll still annihilate you. 

This is like saying that if Timo Boll can't *use* Ma Long's setup, then he needs to improve his ability to develop a more powerful stroke.  Finding a setup slow is not just about the stroke power but whether it suits the player's game. 

Your statement ignores the particular strengths and weaknesses of the specific player.  G1 as a rubber does not feel or respond the way a Tenergy does to certain kinds of strokes.  When my clubmates hit with my racket, those at the same level as I am, they note this even though they like the spin of G1.  So it was thinking of their comments and their rubber preferences and comparing them to KFang's that I said what I Said.  The idea that you can't find a setup too slow just because it is offensive looping rubber with offensive looping blade is not grounded in knowing individual preferences.  I am not speaking about banal generalization for beginners.  I used an offensive blade with offensive rubber.  My coach then asked me to change both  (MX-S on a Tibhar Inca) because she wanted a faster output.  

Backgrounds are only irrelevant when you don't care who is saying something.  That is fine, but is not the approach of someone looking for credible sources of information.  Knowing who you play with doesn't establish your level.    Are you over USATT 1800 rating?  IF you are, let's close the conversation there.  If you aren't then just say you are not.  Making statements about "What NextLevel is indicating" when I was speaking to a specific player and you felt compelled to spout your own opinion as gospel is bad form.  If you want to play expert, at least make it clearer what your knowledge base is.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/10/2019 at 4:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:


I'm harsh on myself for my techniques. We all have different standards. This doesn't mean I'm a newbie with no equipment knowledge or league experiences. I have no idea where you play but we don't live in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy. What in the hell are you even talking about? Mention booster in any table tennis forum and you get plenty of folks who are against it. I have used Acoustic blade with G1 and have asked the Chinese kid to take a swing with it. He delivers such a powerful stroke that the ball shoots way faster than I could using my HL5 with MX-P or ZJK ALC with R47. I have done the same for many other 2000+ players. I have hit with their equipment and I've asked them to hit with mine. More people need to do this if you have doubt about people lying about boosting. Yes, some are boosting but it's nowhere as close to what NextLevel is indicating. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure these things out. When we talk about speed and spin on this forum, we are all speaking in relative terms. But if a guy comes to me and says he finds ZJK ALC with G1 slow, boy it is clear that there is some issue with his technique. Unless you have been trained since early childhood in table tennis, which most people here haventh, you need to focus on getting coaching than blaming equipment. 

Now, my question is, do you have anything useful to add or has hitting table tennis ball every day impaired your ability to think? 

I have no desire to be gratuitously rude, but it is clear my ability to think is not impaired.  The poster I was responding to was a trained junior (you could have read his profile where he referred to what he was using, which was a boosted Tenergy 05 Hard on his forehand and if you had been here longer, you would know he has tried other stuff).  Maybe not super high level, but not a slouch either.  Even with what you have written, you are mostly repeating what you think you see without having the technical insight to understand it.   You are unlikely to be at a level where you can form your own strong nuanced opinions of these things.  And even if you are at a higher level, the focus is always on your form and coaching, not equipment.

I play in the US, started receiving coaching and playing in tournaments since 2011, dealt with various physical impediments (autoimmune and degenerative arthritis), some of which have stopped me from playing, and have a rating high of 2100 (I still mostly play roughly around 2000 USATT, which I first hit in 2015).  I have a youtube channel where plenty of my play exists - I am trying to come back while accepting that some of my goals may be past me.  I am in this video.


I learned a long time ago after meeting some of the people on this forum who like to speak strongly about their opinions but share little about their play that many of the most vocal posters who I thought knew what they were talking about often played at a level where taking advice from them was dangerous because they were talking about stuff they didn't have broad enough experience to place into context.  It didn't mean they were wrong or right, just that they didn't know enough to be able to derive what they were saying in their experiences.  The better posters would share their background so you could place their experiences in context.

The only reason I bring this up is that you felt secure enough to comment and insult people whose playing level you didn't know.  To be fair enough, you are now sharing your background, which is good, but for whatever reason, you still feel the need to act like I am stupid.

If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.

I'm gonna keep it simple here. Your background is irrelevant for our discussion here, but I do appreciate you creating videos to teach others. As for my background, you have no idea either. But I do compete in the highest division in my city with plenty of folks over 2,000 rating. I do like to stay humble and critique myself because I'm aware that I'll never reach a point where I'd be satisfied with my techniques and it motivates me to continuously improve. Never did I expect someone would read that comment and interpret it as I'm inexperienced to comment.

I'll say again, if a guy states he finds ZJK ALC with G1 setup slow, he needs to improve his ability to deliver a more powerful stroke. The equipment isn't the issue. You can swap that set up with whichever professional's faster set up and he'll still annihilate you. 

This is like saying that if Timo Boll can't *use* Ma Long's setup, then he needs to improve his ability to develop a more powerful stroke.  Finding a setup slow is not just about the stroke power but whether it suits the player's game. 

Your statement ignores the particular strengths and weaknesses of the specific player.  G1 as a rubber does not feel or respond the way a Tenergy does to certain kinds of strokes.  When my clubmates hit with my racket, those at the same level as I am, they note this even though they like the spin of G1.  So it was thinking of their comments and their rubber preferences and comparing them to KFang's that I said what I Said.  The idea that you can't find a setup too slow just because it is offensive looping rubber with offensive looping blade is not grounded in knowing individual preferences.  I am not speaking about banal generalization for beginners.  I used an offensive blade with offensive rubber.  My coach then asked me to change both  (MX-S on a Tibhar Inca) because she wanted a faster output.  

Backgrounds are only irrelevant when you don't care who is saying something.  That is fine, but is not the approach of someone looking for credible sources of information.  Knowing who you play with doesn't establish your level.    Are you over USATT 1800 rating?  IF you are, let's close the conversation there.  If you aren't then just say you are not.  Making statements about "What NextLevel is indicating" when I was speaking to a specific player and you felt compelled to spout your own opinion as gospel is bad form.  If you want to play expert, at least make it clearer what your knowledge base is.

I don't play in the US (I play in Canada) so our ranking may be somewhat different, but I'm around 2,000 here. I like how you continue to have this attitude of "don't talk to me unless you are above certain rating". I don't need to go around talking about my rating prior to commenting (this sort of behavior screams douchey). 

You are talking about rubber preferences, which we all get. Obviously, some people prefer one rubber over another, but you need to recognize this is often because they had started with a particular rubber. Most pros stick with T05 not necessarily because it is superior to another tensor rubber, but because they have gotten used to it. You give them another rubber, whether it be G1 or other tensor rubbers, they will still hit just as fast. I frankly don't know what your problem is. If you call ZJK ALC + G1 slow, there's an issue with your technique, unless you don't understand what the definition of "slow" is. We need to isolate the factors related to individual preferences. Looking at rubbers objectively based on their quality and characteristics, there is clearly no reason that a person will greatly increase his speed by switching to T05 from G1. It simply makes no sense. While I have not received one on one lessons, I've spoken to plenty of coaches in our city. I have not come across a single coach (including Wilson Zhang who represented Canada in 08 Beijing Olympics) who dwells so much on finding that perfect set up that is suitable to a player's need. You know why? Because they recognize that most people, including those who have 2,000+ ratings, will benefit way more from fine-tuning his technique than spending hours finding that unique equipment set-up. Any coach here will laugh at you if you go up to him and say "I find ZJK ALC + G1 somewhat slow, but a boosted T05 might improve my game." 

I'm not sure what the hell your goal is. Trying to bar me from telling someone there is a problem with his technique because he finds G1 + ZJK ALC set too slow? I don't need your approval or openly state my ratings prior to commenting. I also don't need to research into anyone's playing style to make that statement. Most amateurs fall into the trap of blaming the equipment and you can bet that I will steer that person away from going into the rabbit hole of finding that perfect set-up when he already has the equipment to do everything he can possibly think of. 


Edited by vik2000 - 03/10/2019 at 5:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 6:53pm
You were the person who made the statement that anyone who finds G1 plus ZJK ALC too slow needs to check their technique.  Saying that is indirectly an implication that whoever is saying that or believes that has poor technique or power.

A coach might laugh given the way you stated it, but a coach would not laugh if you said, "I play better with T05 + ZJK ALC than G1+ZJK ALC - one some shots I like to do, I don't find the spin/speed of G1 sufficient."  I mean, part of the reason I play with G1 is that I find blocking much easier with it than T05 for my technique and playing distance.

I actually know a coach who feels that if you are using anything other than T05/Tenergy, you are likely using inferior equipment.  He is not saying that T05 will make everyone a better player.  But there are many things that T05 does better than other rubbers including a precise kind of speed/spin quality.

I recommended someone try something other than Rozena on TTD.  And the first thing he said was that as someone who punch blocks, he finds the generation of ESN rubbers from which G1 comes from too slow when he punches the ball.  I understood what he meant and told him so.

I have pushed this conversation about as far as I wanted to.  Since you think you know about amateurs and you know who is an amateur without knowing anything about who you are talking to, that says a lot.  Most people want to know something about who they are advising before determining what is appropriate.  Or if they generalize, they place caveats around the statement.  Your style is up to you.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 7:57pm
This makes no sense... Based on your logic, people might as well stop commenting on this forum because no one is going to have the time to find out how exactly another person plays over the internet before commenting. I think you need to learn to turn down a notch. Certain assumptions need to be made when commenting online and it's generally safe to ask a person to check his technique if he finds a fast set up slow. 

"I actually know a coach who feels that if you are using anything other than T05/Tenergy, you are likely using inferior equipment.  He is not saying that T05 will make everyone a better player.  But there are many things that T05 does better than other rubbers including a precise kind of speed/spin quality."

I would truly be at a loss for words if any coach spews such an absurd statement like that. I suggest you stop nagging me about a perfectly acceptable comment I made and move on. I made a comment critiquing my own technique because I compared myself to a Chinese kid who has been trained since his childhood, and you take the opportunity to use that comment against me calling that I'm inexperienced to tell a guy that there is some issue with his technique because he finds ZJK ALC + G1 slow? Some real class you have right there. 


Edited by vik2000 - 03/10/2019 at 11:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 8:03pm
i'd actually disagree. I've used in the past 2 years on my backhand:
Fastarc G1
MXP
Hiromi M
Sriver G3
T05
Moon Speed
AK47 Blue

The fastest in terms of absoloute speed was MX-P and slowest is Hiromi M. I also often use other people bats to just try them out.

You are correct in saying that there is nothing wrong with using a rubber as a crutch, we all do it. I changed from 999 "National" to euro rubbers because I personally struggle with smashing and I find I still can put enough spin on a ball with a decent euro rubber (hiromi M was the only rubber I ever used out of those where I felt I couldn't use it on the FH due to spin, BH was a travasty for that too had to use a lot of punching)

But he is still correct if you cannot make enough speed with pretty much any rubber and bat that is OFF or higher its because of the technique.

Of course not everyone can do this, disabilities and age related issues spring to mind but people make too much of a deal out of rubbers especially in a similar catagory. You will not move much up or down the pecking order with a same in class change at all.
If a ALC blade and G1 is too slow then you are probably running into the Fan ZhenDong issue:
Playing very predictably if somone can prepare for your shot because its predictable then it's gonna be hard to put it past them
its why FZD always makes everyone look amazing and beats them in often hard won game and ML routinely makes people look bad. He is less mechanical and predictable

I honestly beat the same people with the Stiga Clipper with Hiromi M both sides as with a Acoustic with MXP or a IF ALC with Fastarc G1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 10:02pm


NL: I request you to please continue this quarrel elsewhere as it distracts from the main thread topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/11/2019 at 2:29am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I tried on the robot to focus on that and the feeling is that it works only if, following the legs and hips thrust from them, the upper body and shoulder are dead and the arm is on a path of its own, pre-determined. The conscious arm thrust and forearm snap are still there because there is time to actively control it, having made the torso and shoulder passive intermediates. Learning to add that hips thrust is about commitment to position correctly and utterly trust whatever the hips have put in motion, the arm can't adjust much without cancelling out what came to support it, it has to follow the path imposed by the thrust of the hips for full power transfer.

Question: when are we going to start talking about core and side abs here? it's really what it's about isn't it?
Yes from experimenting the hip thrust has to be in the same direction as the swing path along with the other components, otherwise it's all for nothing... 
The really important part is to make the power go towards rotation of the body about the vertical axis (key part of the WRM video!). The centre of gravity does not go up or down during the stroke. This ensures that recovery is fast. 

It does seem to be powered by the side abs... I've done some weighted core rotation with cable machine at the gym before, this sounds similar. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/11/2019 at 8:08pm
Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/11/2019 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I mention the side abs and core because the hips really are bones, support of muscles and not really acting. It's for the sake of being understood that we write about the hips thrust. I am writing that to underline that we are conscious that it all comes from the core, of course, but that does not help as much as putting the hips up front when explaining the main thread idea. Bottom line is SO MUCH depends on the core in TT that mentioning it is often too vague.

I believe they are generally called the obliques in strength training terminology. Wink
Yes I agree that core rotation is such a generalised and easily misunderstood term, especially for beginners (no wonder many do not ever get it correct!). A more accurate and specific guide like what you wrote is a lot more helpful in my opinion! ClapClapClapClap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 1:44am
Pull out P90x and do their Ab Ripper X. Only 20 min and it's very effective. If it is your first time doing it and you never really train your core before, you'll struggle to wake up the next morning. Do this about 2-3 times a week, coupled with TT exercises and you will gain meaningful strength. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 7:05am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I mention the side abs and core because the hips really are bones, support of muscles and not really acting. It's for the sake of being understood that we write about the hips thrust. I am writing that to underline that we are conscious that it all comes from the core, of course, but that does not help as much as putting the hips up front when explaining the main thread idea. Bottom line is SO MUCH depends on the core in TT that mentioning it is often too vague.

Teaching TT is by nature vague, the knowledge is in the doing, not in the description 
 I prefer a scientifically wrong but helpful description to a scientifically correct but unhelpful one.  If something is both scientific correct and helpful, great. But being right is not the same thing as being helpful. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 7:21am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...

Blahness, do you really believe that Gucchy was ignorantly doing the body rotation incorrectly and this was what caused the difference in stroke quality? And that now he knows the correct rotation he can hit better shots?  Thankfully I watched that video so I am actually curious to see how you interpreted its message.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 9:21am
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Pull out P90x and do their Ab Ripper X. Only 20 min and it's very effective. If it is your first time doing it and you never really train your core before, you'll struggle to wake up the next morning. Do this about 2-3 times a week, coupled with TT exercises and you will gain meaningful strength. 

Whatever anyone does do not follow this advice. P90x lol.
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