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Body-Turn to improve Topspin by CHN coach's lesson

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 9:37am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...

Blahness, do you really believe that Gucchy was ignorantly doing the body rotation incorrectly and this was what caused the difference in stroke quality? And that now he knows the correct rotation he can hit better shots?  Thankfully I watched that video so I am actually curious to see how you interpreted its message.
Could someone link the said Gucchy video?  thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 9:42am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...

Blahness, do you really believe that Gucchy was ignorantly doing the body rotation incorrectly and this was what caused the difference in stroke quality? And that now he knows the correct rotation he can hit better shots?  Thankfully I watched that video so I am actually curious to see how you interpreted its message.
Yes if you watch some of his other match videos it's quite obvious that he was doing it wrong previously...I think even in the video he improved his shot quality significantly (look at the before vs after video segments). 

Most people in my club have body rotation but they're not doing it in the optimal way (legs and obliques driving hip rotation without much up and down weight transfer) which allows both fast recovery as well as very powerful shots. I've asked some of the very high level players to show me, and they showed me a very similar rotation movement without much up or down weight transfer. From what I see from US videos, it seems that the majority of club players there too don't do it correctly either. The European amateurs who post here seem to mostly get it correct but they seem to be in much higher level generally.  

I don't think it's such "basic club level TT" technique, or everyone would have FHs like Yassun in the WRM video. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 11:40am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...

Blahness, do you really believe that Gucchy was ignorantly doing the body rotation incorrectly and this was what caused the difference in stroke quality? And that now he knows the correct rotation he can hit better shots?  Thankfully I watched that video so I am actually curious to see how you interpreted its message.
Could someone link the said Gucchy video?  thanks
It started with mickdStar's thread there:


It's worth mentioning http://wrm.tv leading to https://rubber.ocnk.net for those who do not understand Japanese but are ok with translations on the fly.

Gucchy is that guy (in the presentation video):


thanks Fatt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 11:44am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...

Blahness, do you really believe that Gucchy was ignorantly doing the body rotation incorrectly and this was what caused the difference in stroke quality? And that now he knows the correct rotation he can hit better shots?  Thankfully I watched that video so I am actually curious to see how you interpreted its message.
Yes if you watch some of his other match videos it's quite obvious that he was doing it wrong previously...I think even in the video he improved his shot quality significantly (look at the before vs after video segments). 

Most people in my club have body rotation but they're not doing it in the optimal way (legs and obliques driving hip rotation without much up and down weight transfer) which allows both fast recovery as well as very powerful shots. I've asked some of the very high level players to show me, and they showed me a very similar rotation movement without much up or down weight transfer. From what I see from US videos, it seems that the majority of club players there too don't do it correctly either. The European amateurs who post here seem to mostly get it correct but they seem to be in much higher level generally.  

I don't think it's such "basic club level TT" technique, or everyone would have FHs like Yassun in the WRM video. 

Ah, I guess I should be more careful when describing things, but I doubt I ever called it club level.technique, I mean it is stuff that most club level.players know..  Clubs in the USA often have Chinese coaches or high level European coaches or players who watch lots of YouTube.  Everyone tells you to hit the ball with your legs or body or other such stuff even they can't do it.  That some people do it better than others is rarely about other being right or wrong but is usually related to a lot of things like practice hours and who you learned to hit the ball from, how long you have played etc.  Lots of people in clubs discuss technique they haven't put in the time to master. 

My ball impact is usually thick and my trajectories low when I take the ball early, the main issue that I saw that Gucci had was his timing was different.  He hadn't trained early timing and thick contact as a big part of his game, which I suspect was heavily influenced by the older ball and relatively less training.   Taking the ball later, he was used to spinning up the ball consistently and did not have the training hours or raw power or footwork to win points like Yassun as such ball striking at a higher level relies on lower trajectories.  There is a fitness and anticipation level required to play TT like that and it is easy to downplay it when you haven't tried it.  Yassun likely played to a higher level where you had to use such weapons on a regular.basis.

If Gucci was doing it wrong, why was he suddenly able to adapt in the space of one show?  That doesn't strike you as surprising given your experience with TT?  It is more likely that some of what he was doing was putting on a show for didactic purposes.  Nothing to do with his true level as a player. 

That's my speculation for the day.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/12/2019 at 12:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 12:06pm
a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/12/2019 at 12:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 12:47pm
Of course you need to be familiar with the technique. But I think that is a basic requirement. No one thinks that a person that never played a backhand topspin can play a correct backhand topspin in the first session that they are taught the technique.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Of course you need to be familiar with the technique. But I think that is a basic requirement. No one thinks that a person that never played a backhand topspin can play a correct backhand topspin in the first session that they are taught the technique.

Familiar as I use it means you have done it before, you just don't do it all the time.  So you watched the video and you agree with Blahness?


Edited by NextLevel - 03/12/2019 at 2:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 4:00pm
Good video, and thanks to mickd for the translation. Looks to me like Gucchy was performing for didactic purposes as NextLevel suggests. The coaches I know at a similar level (assuming he's at least US 2400 equivalent) can all execute multiple different techniques for most strokes. The Chinese coaches can do Euro style forehands and vice versa, etc., maybe not at competition level but more than good enough for demonstration purposes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.

You underestimate the power of the human mind, I've taught multiple people some tips and they mostly get it in the first session like ttgold mentioned. I recently taught someone how to execute a tomahawk serve (she has never done it before in her whole life), it only took 10 mins before she was getting the movement right and half an hour before she was getting good quality spin on it. I taught another to incorporate pronation in the FH topspin and the results was similarly immediate. For me I got the hip rotation concept almost immediately after watching the video and was able to incorporate it the next playing session  (I have been doing it like Gucchy previously). 

Maybe it's the advantage of scientific, clear-cut detailed explanations rather than vague explanations? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.

You underestimate the power of the human mind, I've taught multiple people some tips and they mostly get it in the first session like ttgold mentioned. I recently taught someone how to execute a tomahawk serve (she has never done it before in her whole life), it only took 10 mins before she was getting the movement right and half an hour before she was getting good quality spin on it. I taught another to incorporate pronation in the FH topspin and the results was similarly immediate. For me I got the hip rotation concept almost immediately after watching the video and was able to incorporate it the next playing session  (I have been doing it like Gucchy previously). 

Maybe it's the advantage of scientific, clear-cut detailed explanations rather than vague explanations? Wink

You know how I feel about evidence and videotape.  Let's leave it at that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.

You underestimate the power of the human mind, I've taught multiple people some tips and they mostly get it in the first session like ttgold mentioned. I recently taught someone how to execute a tomahawk serve (she has never done it before in her whole life), it only took 10 mins before she was getting the movement right and half an hour before she was getting good quality spin on it. I taught another to incorporate pronation in the FH topspin and the results was similarly immediate. For me I got the hip rotation concept almost immediately after watching the video and was able to incorporate it the next playing session  (I have been doing it like Gucchy previously). 

Maybe it's the advantage of scientific, clear-cut detailed explanations rather than vague explanations? Wink

You know how I feel about evidence and videotape.  Let's leave it at that.

So you don't think it's possible for someone to incorporate something new into their existing stroke in a single session? Even the OP's videos frequently showcase that (you'll see the learner fix their movement in pretty much one session most of the time). 

Of course doing it against a controlled feed is one thing, to make it match ready is another. 

But yeah let's agree to disagree here... I think there's plenty of videos going around, but I doubt videos will convince you. According to your interpretation the OP would have to be faking a wrong stroke, pay the coach to "correct" his "wrong" stroke to put on Youtube...since there's no way he's able to correct his stroke in one session! We're not talking about learning an entire FH topspin from scratch but rather modifying certain components of it, it's really not that difficult imo...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 8:51pm
Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 10:34pm
Hi all, just a quick random thought, the hips thrust on top of the legs work reminds me of the "starting slow-finishing fast" idea. Those 2 ideas integrate so well, the hips thrust is the ultimate quick last action from the lower body on top of a legs work that still built momentum exponentially. 

Note: in case of a too jerky weight transfer, the overlap with the hips thrust is huge and that's wrong as I end up as a blob jumping off the cement (no Gerflor in my basement). It takes focus to time the hips thrust correctly and then the reward is there. How much time to make it natural? you got me! I got a nice bone to chew on tho.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw

Thanks Tt gold. It'll be great if you could describe how you feel about the body rotation since you obviously do it very well on your FH! Do you also feel the same way about having a active hip thrust?


Edited by blahness - 03/12/2019 at 10:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2019 at 11:45pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.

You underestimate the power of the human mind, I've taught multiple people some tips and they mostly get it in the first session like ttgold mentioned. I recently taught someone how to execute a tomahawk serve (she has never done it before in her whole life), it only took 10 mins before she was getting the movement right and half an hour before she was getting good quality spin on it. I taught another to incorporate pronation in the FH topspin and the results was similarly immediate. For me I got the hip rotation concept almost immediately after watching the video and was able to incorporate it the next playing session  (I have been doing it like Gucchy previously). 

Maybe it's the advantage of scientific, clear-cut detailed explanations rather than vague explanations? Wink

You know how I feel about evidence and videotape.  Let's leave it at that.

So you don't think it's possible for someone to incorporate something new into their existing stroke in a single session? Even the OP's videos frequently showcase that (you'll see the learner fix their movement in pretty much one session most of the time). 

Of course doing it against a controlled feed is one thing, to make it match ready is another. 

But yeah let's agree to disagree here... I think there's plenty of videos going around, but I doubt videos will convince you. According to your interpretation the OP would have to be faking a wrong stroke, pay the coach to "correct" his "wrong" stroke to put on Youtube...since there's no way he's able to correct his stroke in one session! We're not talking about learning an entire FH topspin from scratch but rather modifying certain components of it, it's really not that difficult imo...

His stroke wasn't that wrong, and the correction wasn't that significant.  That's my point but because you actually think his stroke was wrong and the correction was significant, you don't seem to get it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 12:35am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.

You underestimate the power of the human mind, I've taught multiple people some tips and they mostly get it in the first session like ttgold mentioned. I recently taught someone how to execute a tomahawk serve (she has never done it before in her whole life), it only took 10 mins before she was getting the movement right and half an hour before she was getting good quality spin on it. I taught another to incorporate pronation in the FH topspin and the results was similarly immediate. For me I got the hip rotation concept almost immediately after watching the video and was able to incorporate it the next playing session  (I have been doing it like Gucchy previously). 

Maybe it's the advantage of scientific, clear-cut detailed explanations rather than vague explanations? Wink

You know how I feel about evidence and videotape.  Let's leave it at that.

So you don't think it's possible for someone to incorporate something new into their existing stroke in a single session? Even the OP's videos frequently showcase that (you'll see the learner fix their movement in pretty much one session most of the time). 

Of course doing it against a controlled feed is one thing, to make it match ready is another. 

But yeah let's agree to disagree here... I think there's plenty of videos going around, but I doubt videos will convince you. According to your interpretation the OP would have to be faking a wrong stroke, pay the coach to "correct" his "wrong" stroke to put on Youtube...since there's no way he's able to correct his stroke in one session! We're not talking about learning an entire FH topspin from scratch but rather modifying certain components of it, it's really not that difficult imo...

His stroke wasn't that wrong, and the correction wasn't that significant.  That's my point but because you actually think his stroke was wrong and the correction was significant, you don't seem to get it.
Not exactly sure why you are in such an argumentative mood with all the posters here which has completely derailed the thread topic. What is a significant change? It's a fairly subjective statement. Why is the OP's videos considered a minor correction and Gucchy's stroke correction a significant one that he couldnt have achieved in a single session?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 12:43am
The Op's video had nothing to do with Guccy's video.  You were the one who said that Guccy wasn't doing it right.  My point is that Guccy was doing it right *enough*, to the point that Yassum could fix him very quickly, and that the issue was really Guccy not training.  Your interpretation was more of the "oh, if someone isn't play like Ma Long, they don't know how to play" variety.

The video in the OP is nothing special - people do this all the time to varying degrees.  And there are many good players who don't do it intensely.

Part of the reason I argue is that I feel a lot of people like to stay stuff about TT without making it clear what their experience with what they are talking about is.  You are telling us that this technique is improving your game - do you have video of this to share?


Edited by NextLevel - 03/13/2019 at 12:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:23am
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Pull out P90x and do their Ab Ripper X. Only 20 min and it's very effective. If it is your first time doing it and you never really train your core before, you'll struggle to wake up the next morning. Do this about 2-3 times a week, coupled with TT exercises and you will gain meaningful strength. 

Whatever anyone does do not follow this advice. P90x lol.

Still waiting for salty FruitLoop to offer his advice on core strength training. Apparently, according to this dude, you should avoid core strengthening exercises like plank, side plank, oblique v up and etc. 

Can't wait for him to impart his wisdom on his training routine. Hey, why not post a video of your loop drive? Since P90x AB X Ripper seems laughable to you, you must have done some other effective core training exercises that enabled a more powerful loop. We got plenty of people here wanting to learn the most efficient way to strengthen their core. 


Edited by vik2000 - 03/13/2019 at 1:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:24am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The Op's video had nothing to do with Guccy's video.  You were the one who said that Guccy wasn't doing it right.  My point is that Guccy was doing it right *enough*, to the point that Yassum could fix him very quickly, and that the issue was really Guccy not training.  Your interpretation was more of the "oh, if someone isn't play like Ma Long, they don't know how to play" variety.

The video in the OP is nothing special - people do this all the time to varying degrees.  And there are many good players who don't do it intensely.

Part of the reason I argue is that I feel a lot of people like to stay stuff about TT without making it clear what their experience with what they are talking about is.  You are telling us that this technique is improving your game - do you have video of this to share?
The OP's video is similar in concept to Gucchy's video with the body rotation mechanism. 
Maybe wrong was too strong a word, a better one would be suboptimal. 

The question of course is why you felt that you had to be so dismissive  about a video that the OP kindly uploaded to help others. Is it complete bullshit and misleading? If no why did you have to show up with such a poor attitude? Maybe for you it's basic technique and nothing special but as I've noted earlier probably 90% of club players are not getting it right, including Gucchy at the very beginning. In fact I'm not the only one who said that, there were quite a few posters in that thread who noted the same thing. Btw, a lot of club players know that they have to use the body rotation and the legs, but talk is cheap. If they had truly understood it, why are they not applying it? Or maybe it's a case of us thinking we understood it but actually not, and "basic" videos like this force us to reevaluate our understanding and improve our game.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:58am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
Thanks for the video. It's very helpful, especially because we can see how your feet are not planted as you do the hip turn. This is crucial to avoiding knee problems from the twisting action.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 9:07am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw

Thanks Tt gold. It'll be great if you could describe how you feel about the body rotation since you obviously do it very well on your FH! Do you also feel the same way about having a active hip thrust?
I pretty much only focus on my hip rotation. Stand up right now in a forehand stance. Then look down at your hips. After that draw your right hip (assuming you are right handed) back. Then just push your right hip out again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
Thanks for the video. It's very helpful, especially because we can see how your feet are not planted as you do the hip turn. This is crucial to avoiding knee problems from the twisting action.

Yes.  It is worth doing an invisible hop above the ground if you have to to get this effect of not being planted in my experience. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

...
a lot of club players know that they have to use the body rotation and the legs, but talk is cheap. If they had truly understood it, why are they not applying it? Or maybe it's a case of us thinking we understood it but actually not, and "basic" videos like this force us to reevaluate our understanding and improve our game.  
I am one of them.
It reminds me the gap between what people are and what they think they are. If that gap is too big, people are delusional (maybe too strong a word for this) and not understood; if it is null, people are unable to evolve and remain immobile. When that gap is reasonable, we project ourselves in the future in a healthy way, putting up front a goal that is reachable. There is a connection to be made with "the inner game of tennis" (the player yelling at themselves shows that their expectations are too big compared to their capabilities and that the gap between their abilities and what they deliver is too big at the moment?).
This thread underlines all that and I believe we are all on the same side, if that was not the case we would not be enjoying posting here. Is the devil in the details then? YOU BETCHA!!! LOL


Edited by fatt - 03/13/2019 at 1:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:23pm
I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 2:16pm
I'd say when there is time for an aggressive forward weight transfer, more weight gets loaded onto the back leg and the back leg definitely pushes hard, thrusting and rotating the hips and upper torso. When there's no time, the weight is more evenly distributed between the legs to begin with, but the back leg still needs to brace against the hip and upper torso rotation, as governed by physics.

To the Chinese at least, the ideal way to control your forehand stroke mechanics requires using the hips and upper torso to guide the hitting arm in both the back swing and forward swing.

To a large degree, the hip turn also controls your follow through and recovery/reset footwork after a forehand, as can be seen during 2 point, 3 point forehand drills 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

we're getting closer, can we say the following: the hips thrust is what we really want 1st; now if the legs work can enhance the hips thrust, great! if not, just focus on the hips thrust.
It's similar to the thinking behind the appropriateness of a full arm fh loop with the elbow away from the body and a huge straight arm back swing: if away from the table, we have time and it adds power up. If not, the elbow stays close so the upper body can rotate faster (insert spinning ice skater's arms here).

Hip thrusting to get more forehand power without turning your feet and staying off your heels when turning can lead to a lot of knee pain because of the torque.  Jump a bit if you want to hip thrust.  It is energy consuming like most things on good TT. 

Even close to the table you can hit straight arm loops.  The elbow doesn't have to stay close to the body on the forward swing.  The real issue is to what degree you can maintain balance doing so.  It's not the speed of the rotation but the balance and the recovery. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
Thanks for the video. It's very helpful, especially because we can see how your feet are not planted as you do the hip turn. This is crucial to avoiding knee problems from the twisting action.

Yes.  It is worth doing an invisible hop above the ground if you have to to get this effect of not being planted in my experience. 

Concerning that "invisible" hop you mention, it seems to me the women players do this a lot. Ie., they seem to take a bounce after almost every shot. See this short vid of Ito, for one single instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G322RFQ2_Yw&feature=youtu.be

Whereas the men players, it appears to me, do a heck of a lot less bouncing between shots. Their feet seem far more planted.

I could take some guesses as to why this may be, but can you tell me why?  It puzzles me as to why women appear to have significantly different footwork. (I realize men tend to play further back and hit with more power.)


Edited by Ieyasu - 03/13/2019 at 5:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
Thanks for the video. It's very helpful, especially because we can see how your feet are not planted as you do the hip turn. This is crucial to avoiding knee problems from the twisting action.

Yes.  It is worth doing an invisible hop above the ground if you have to to get this effect of not being planted in my experience. 

Concerning that "invisible" hop you mention, it seems to me the women players do this a lot. Ie., they seem to take a bounce after almost every shot. See this short vid of Ito, for one single instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G322RFQ2_Yw&feature=youtu.be

Whereas the men players, it appears to me, do a heck of a lot less bouncing between shots. Their feet seem far more planted.

I could take some guesses as to why this may be, but can you tell me why?  It puzzles me as to why women appear to have significantly different footwork. (I realize men tend to play further back and hit with more power.)
The hop I am speaking about is a bit different but related.  I am talking about hopping to rotate the body on the backswing and then hopping back on the forward swing to hit the ball as opposed to just rotating on the balls of your feet.  I think they are related in some cases bit different.

For your question, my theory is that it is more important to play with balance when you are closer to the table and the hop is almost a necessity if you want to repeatedly hit the ball hard close to the table and stay in balance. I don't think there is a significantly different requirement for balance I was watching FZD vs XX recently and what we noted was how they were hopping all the time.  But maybe they go off balance with power more often so there is no reasonable recovery.  Or they go back to a distance where power is more important and hopping will not reset balance.

The funny thing is that most of this hopping and resetting as far as I know seems to be largely unconscious and is done by just about every good player trained in balance and footwork. I have been trying to figure out whether it is worth learning for a serious adult player and how to learn it without doing 6 months of footwork classes and hoping it happens.

Again, I am neither a high level player or coach. Just speaking about my experiences trying to figure this stuff out as well as the kinds of things I have heard talking with other players and some coaches. There is also the issue that when women play one way and men play another, we have try to assume that it has little to do with gender style preferences. It may or may not but let us assume it does not for now.  Unless someone who has experience coaching lots of boys and lots of girls is willing to comment from their experiences doing so.
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