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Body-Turn to improve Topspin by CHN coach's lesson

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 12:56pm
Blahness,

One of the hardest things to accept when you are trying to conceptualize table tennis is that a simple theory (and sometimes even complicated ones) do not convey the reality of the situation.  It is one of the dangers that people naively trying to teach or learn table tennis through forums often forget.  The highest level coach I know who posts regularly almost always asks you to send or post video before he answers a question about your play because he knows how dangerous it can be to give advice that can be totally irrelevant to the player he is giving it to.  Every answer is reasonable in some context. 

As for your level, I remember that you had a video of members playing a long while back and you also comment in mickd's thread saying your level is similar to his.  Now usually in my experience that would mean your level is likely lower than his as people who don't watch themselves play regularly or who don't play tournaments tend to inflate their level. But if I assume your level is the same as his, that is fine.  It helps me put your statements in context.   And that is enough.  I don't need to ignore them, I just use that information to place it in context.  You probably don't or can't serve or push short.for example.  Most of us can't anyways.

If someone is telling me he can win a match vs. equal opponents by pushing every serve long and he is not chopper, I think this is reasonable and true up to a certain level.  If I know someone is going that at the USATT equivalent of 1200, then I will not argue at all as I did it. If someone is saying he can do it at USATT 1600 he had better be a good blocker.  Above that, it will work against certain opponents but not against others unless you are a better player in general as the quality of attacks begin to cause pressure.

Dismissing people is something I cannot do in good faith.  But I like to know the perspective of who I am talking to so I can understand where his experiences are coming from.  Table tennis is subjective to a high degree, you need to know a bit about who you are talking to and where they want to take their game before making good recommendations for them.  Sharing your opinions is fine.   Just know that someone out there is googling things and reading what blahness says and is trying it out in their game.  When I post video.of.my practice which with hindsight, I should never have made public,  people see it and treat it as technical commentary.

I have made myself clear but I suspect you will still disagree.  That is fine.  It would not be an internet forum otherwise. 


Edited by NextLevel - 03/15/2019 at 1:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Blahness,

One of the hardest things to accept when you are trying to conceptualize table tennis is that a simple theory (and sometimes even complicated ones) do not convey the reality of the situation.  It is one of the dangers that people naively trying to teach or learn table tennis through forums often forget.  The highest level coach I know who posts regularly almost always asks you to send or post video before he answers a question about your play because he knows how dangerous it can be to give advice that can be totally irrelevant to the player he is giving it to.  Every answer is reasonable in some context. 

As for your level, I remember that you had a video of members playing a long while back and you also comment in mickd's thread saying your level is similar to his.  Now usually in my experience that would mean your level is likely lower than his as people who don't watch themselves play regularly or who don't play tournaments tend to inflate their level. But if I assume your level is the same as his, that is fine.  It helps me put your statements in context.   And that is enough.  I don't need to ignore them, I just use that information to place it in context.  You probably don't or can't serve or push short.for example.  Most of us can't anyways.

If someone is telling me he can win a match vs. equal opponents by pushing every serve long and he is not chopper, I think this is reasonable and true up to a certain level.  If I know someone is going that at the USATT equivalent of 1200, then I will not argue at all as I did it. If someone is saying he can do it at USATT 1600 he had better be a good blocker.  Above that, it will work against certain opponents but not against others unless you are a better player in general as the quality of attacks begin to cause pressure.

Dismissing people is something I cannot do in good faith.  But I like to know the perspective of who I am talking to so I can understand where his experiences are coming from.  Table tennis is subjective to a high degree, you need to know a bit about who you are talking to and where they want to take their game before making good recommendations for them.  Sharing your opinions is fine.   Just know that someone out there is googling things and reading what blahness says and is trying it out in their game.  When I post video.of.my practice which with hindsight, I should never have made public,  people see it and treat it as technical commentary.

I have made myself clear but I suspect you will still disagree.  That is fine.  It would not be an internet forum otherwise. 

Of course advice needs to be in context. But readers are not stupid, they can choose for themselves what advice to follow! You worry way too much about people you don't even know.... If they really want personalised advice they could start a thread. if they misinterpreted general technique discussions its their own problem, why worry? do you have such a big ego that you feel the need to police what people post so that the poor newbies  wont get confused?

Btw that video was a long time ago and I have surpassed that level significantly already. Youre making a lot of assumptions which are likely wrong. You're out of your mind if you think i cant serve short lol.... thats like the really basics which i think even 1500 players can do.l can push short, but why push short when you can chiquita and gain a huge advantage? I only push short if the opponent serves heavier underspin. My biggest issue is the surprise long fast serves to the middle or BH which gets me as I'm preparing to move forward with the chiquita, if I can punish that with good percentages my level will increase significantly. It's a BH loop in a bad position, which I miss a bit too often against good servers. The most important thing to increase someones level in TT is serves and receive. The game rarely goes to a rally... I'm not so good at rallying as mickd for sure, but in terms of serve and receive I'm quite sure I have a much nastier game because i can almost attack all services on the receive, and I can serve high quality tomahawk and pendulum which are very well disguised. I also attack the  first ball hard because I know I'm gonna lose in a rally situation, and more often than not it doesn't come back. My worst matchups are with those who can block my first attacks very well and those who dont misread my serves. This aggressive game has won me matches against high level players but when it doesn't work I lose to weaker players... How many weak players do you know who can do the chiquita consistently?


Edited by blahness - 03/15/2019 at 6:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 7:35pm
I don't see what having an ego has to do with wishing to stop the spread of ill-explained, or more often, misapplied information. I think some people here are really overestimating the ability of any player who comes here to properly apply advice that they read here, but most of those who have not had sufficient experience with player development are. I think people would take this matter a little more seriously if they have witnessed the power of the internet echo chamber. It's how we've ended up with an abundance of posts such as "the Viscaria is better than the Timo Boll for my game because I play more over the table flicks", over analysis of hand pressure at contact, "X pro player lost because they didn't play to Y's FH/BH", etc. etc.


Edited by bard romance - 03/15/2019 at 7:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I don't see what having an ego has to do with wishing to stop the spread of ill-explained, or more often, misapplied information. I think some people here are really overestimating the ability of any player who comes here to properly apply advice that they read here, but most of those who have not had sufficient experience with player development are. I think people would take this matter a little more seriously if they have witnessed the power of the internet echo chamber. It's how we've ended up with an abundance of posts such as "the Viscaria is better than the Timo Boll for my game because I play more over the table flicks", over analysis of hand pressure at contact, "X pro player lost because they didn't play to Y's FH/BH", etc. etc.

And who will be the judge and arbiter of "correct" information? You and NextLevel? Can't you see how egoistic it is?  I would recommend applying to be a moderator, then you can just delete all such posts you don't like! Alternatively set up another forum, then you can do whatever you want, including being the thought police. It's a public forum, you're bound to have opinions you disagree with, but you're always welcome to make your point, isn't that the beauty of it? With excessive censorship and intolerance like what you suggest, i'm pretty sure I'll be leaving along with many others and the forum will cease to be a thriving forum with exchange of ideas. 

I'm quite happy that fatt is the moderator rather than NextLevel! 

I always thought US citizens are typically pro free speech and democracy, It looks like I might be very wrong on that....




Edited by blahness - 03/15/2019 at 8:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I don't see what having an ego has to do with wishing to stop the spread of ill-explained, or more often, misapplied information. I think some people here are really overestimating the ability of any player who comes here to properly apply advice that they read here, but most of those who have not had sufficient experience with player development are. I think people would take this matter a little more seriously if they have witnessed the power of the internet echo chamber. It's how we've ended up with an abundance of posts such as "the Viscaria is better than the Timo Boll for my game because I play more over the table flicks", over analysis of hand pressure at contact, "X pro player lost because they didn't play to Y's FH/BH", etc. etc.

And who will be the judge and arbiter of "correct" information? You and NextLevel? Can't you see how egoistic it is?  I would recommend applying to be a moderator, then you can just delete all such posts you don't like! Alternatively set up another forum, then you can do whatever you want, including being the thought police. It's a public forum, you're bound to have opinions you disagree with, but you're always welcome to make your point, isn't that the beauty of it? With excessive censorship and intolerance like what you suggest, i'm pretty sure I'll be leaving along with many others and the forum will cease to be a thriving forum with exchange of ideas. 

I'm quite happy that fatt is the moderator rather than NextLevel! 

I always thought US citizens are typically pro free speech and democracy, It looks like I might be very wrong on that....



It is clear that you aren’t willing to even try to understand the point and continue to be really inflammatory for some reason even though I think I made a pretty rational post. I won’t bother to post anymore. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 1:31am
well...can’t that be said from both sides and we won’t get any further? that paternalistic approach pretending to protect the newbies may well hide an attempt to own how people post, it’s not prettier than what is seen negatively (right or wrong) in blahness’s posts, it’s still a draw and since mutual respect is still there, better leave it as is, there is enough food for thoughts and it’s digestion time. 
I’ll think about how advancing myself as an eternal student more than an established connoisseur, it’s easy to appear that way without malice when I get carried away in my frenetic posting lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 2:24am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

well...can’t that be said from both sides and we won’t get any further? that paternalistic approach pretending to protect the newbies may well hide an attempt to own how people post, it’s not prettier than what is seen negatively (right or wrong) in blahness’s posts, it’s still a draw and since mutual respect is still there, better leave it as is, there is enough food for thoughts and it’s digestion time. 
I’ll think about how advancing myself as an eternal student more than an established connoisseur, it’s easy to appear that way without malice when I get carried away in my frenetic posting lol.
Why do you think I am pretending to protect newbies?  Just curious.

I can give you a list of some of the silly things I either did on or learned from this site as newbie who understood nothing about how table tennis worked.  I turned out okay so it is not the end of the world.  

But I really do believe that some of the stupid stuff I did would have been avoided if I had a better idea of what type of TT some of the people who posted played.

A player who wrote this on a forum once.  On another forum (TTD), he critiqued a lot of players saying that they had poor form etc.  Can you guess the author's level of play?  Would you take him seriously? Why or why not?

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=27741&p=309951#p309951

Quote Hello and sorry for the somewhat necro from mid last year, I just think I should add this in case the OP is still watching.
Some background first:

I am not a coach, professional player or even notable amateur. I am just very interested in table tennis mechanics and I can practice what I preach. So feel free to shoot me down because x coach said so, but do remember that there's many ways to skin a cat. The concepts discussed here are fairly "advanced" to most players in the west, but they are fundamentals IMO. It's not anything magical, and you can learn it too.

I play "Chinese style" with European rubber on both sides, focusing on third ball attack and performing long strokes from close, mid and long range, and performing shorter, more bent elbow strokes from just right at the table or when caught with a fast ball to my elbow. This is for forehand only.


Tip number 1: Make sure your drive is good. 

The drive is the foundation of the modern loop, and it is the basis for the body mechanics in the loop. Truly under-appreciated.

While there is nothing wrong with learning the slow, high arc, spinny loops described here, in fact you must learn and perfect those, it is inherently not a very quality shot. Practiced and drilled players have no problems killing every shot like that unless it's a counterloop rally where they're performed due to the inherent safety of them, while trying to gain a better foothold for a better stroke.

The slow, spinny loop is essentially suicide if you throw one out when you could be performing the modern loopdrive. (Unless, you're playing a lower player and they struggle with topspin. Go ahead and throw very spinny loops at them and watch them make unforced errors.)

Now, we've all heard about the loopdrive. What it essentially is, is a very dynamic and powerful loop, with a swing geometry closer to a drive than a loop. You sacrifice just a little consistency and spin for far better speed, placement and accuracy while not actually giving up too much spin. It should have a very visible arc compared to a drive of somewhat comparable pace but much less so than a loop of a comparable pace.

Many players, myself included, prefer to brush the ball than to drive the ball when looping. That is also what is taught in the west and what is considered correct. I would have to disagree. 

The reason why most players' natural swing is a straight line, where you essentially chop into the ball upwards and your blade angle is close to or exact to your swing angle, is because it's easy and safe. You also do not have to involve the forearm when doing this, you can just pivot upwards from the elbow and you will produce a consistent shot of acceptable quality quite comfortably.

What you want to be doing is a swing geometry that starts more vertical and levels out more horizontal by the end of it. The best way to do this is to drive with the elbow starting close to the side of the body and finishing far and high from the body, with the blade angle closed, and your swing geometry more "closed" than your blade angle. You're hitting more than you're brushing along the side of the ball, while still producing considerable topspin due to the blade angle and the lifting motion.

The stroke mechanics when driving forwards is actually quite similar to traditional tennis. The forearm "lags" behind and on contact the elbow snaps violently across the body, to the left of your head, perhaps even nearly behind your head when looping very heavy backspin. Your arm will be quite extended just before contact and "loading up" for the snap. Of course, you will be relaxed when doing this. 
Recovery is elliptical.


The main point is to drive with the elbow and control the placement with the elbow, and not to brush in a straight line across the ball. The reason you want to drive INTO the ball, while also performing the brushing motion upwards is because modern rubber responds better to sinking the ball into the sponge than skimming it across the topsheet. This is especially true for Chinese rubbers.

The stroke can be performed with European, Japanese, Chinese, whatever rubber. Chinese rubber just benefits a lot due to the technology. I play with non-top end European rubber, and the stroke has worked even with absolutely rubbish bats. 

Take a look at Ma Long for the perfect example of straight arm looping with this technique, and also compare your drive motion to his drive motion, especially what your body is doing during the movement. most examples I have seen posted here have "worse" body mechanics for this stroke. I call it "lazy posture". Too straight knees, not enough leaning the torso over to shift weight, not enough driving with the hips. Lazy. (Take into account your physical state, of course. Young players can do this better and you might have to adapt your style. This is from the perspective of a young adult.) 

When performing Ma Long's drive motion, you will most likely hit every ball into the net at first, unless you're using a very fast bat. In that case, get a slow wooden beginner's bat.

Once you begin to understand the timing for the hip and shoulder drive and the relation between body and arm mechanics, your regular drives will carry outstanding pace and quality, and you will probably outdo your current loop in everything expect pure topspin. Then once you're certain that your drive is good and you're not just "winging it" in terms of what feels right, you can start to incorporate it into your looping.


Of course, don't blindly copy x player's strokes, especially if their serves and equipment largely differ from yours. Do compare the mechanics between their stroke and your stroke. Even in the CNT there's a dozen ways to skin a cat. They all share the same fundamental aspects, though. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsg4M6fOObI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-b-n4dHT5U

Some tips for the end:

Place weight on your soles and lift your heels slightly.
Squat lower than you normally do. Far lower. 
Learn further than you normally do. Not too much.
Have a wider stance than you normally do.
Have your rear leg further behind than you normally do. If out of position, prefer to push front leg than to pull rear leg. More balanced, less load transfer.
Strike the ball far more to the side, with your body at a 45 degree angle to the playing direction.
Lean forward through the entirety of the stroke.
Tense your core slightly, then fully tense it on impact and release.

You know you're doing it right when it feels like you're doing a crunch and squat at the same time.

Hope it helps and doesn't start a convex vs concave loop discussion. ;)

I'd love to give more tips on looping, but the body mechanics are essentially the same for driving and can be learned from observing pro players with great mechanics, and using your head. I also do not have any credibility, so yeah.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/16/2019 at 2:27am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 6:29am
This could've been a very interesting thread about body rotation mechanics. Sadly it got ruined by a lot of off topic discussion. Hopefully next time people realize this and either discuss privately or open a different thread about the discussion. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 6:41am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

This could've been a very interesting thread about body rotation mechanics. Sadly it got ruined by a lot of off topic discussion. Hopefully next time people realize this and either discuss privately or open a different thread about the discussion. 

+1.
Sadly, it seems that the same perpetrator repeats this offense on multiple threads.

Tt Gold: great videos - you do have very good technique.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=27741&p=309951#p309951

Quote Hello and sorry for the somewhat necro from mid last year, I just think I should add this in case the OP is still watching.
Some background first:

I am not a coach, professional player or even notable amateur. I am just very interested in table tennis mechanics and I can practice what I preach. So feel free to shoot me down because x coach said so, but do remember that there's many ways to skin a cat. The concepts discussed here are fairly "advanced" to most players in the west, but they are fundamentals IMO. It's not anything magical, and you can learn it too.

I play "Chinese style" (Just a pet peeve of mine: I don't like how at the mention of Chinese this and Chinese that, what's being conveyed is by default perceived as some gold nugget.) with European rubber on both sides, focusing on third ball attack and performing long strokes from close, mid and long range, and performing shorter, more bent elbow strokes from just right at the table or when caught with a fast ball to my elbow. This is for forehand only.


Tip number 1: Make sure your drive is good. (Echoing a common view, nothing wrong with that, and a valid view in my opinion. Don't run before you can walk.)

The drive is the foundation of the modern loop, and it is the basis for the body mechanics in the loop. Truly under-appreciated. (Again, I believe this to be true.)

While there is nothing wrong with learning the slow, high arc, spinny loops described here, in fact you must learn and perfect those, it is inherently not a very quality shot. (Also true, in the context of higher level competition.) Practiced and drilled players have no problems killing every shot like that unless it's a counterloop rally where they're performed due to the inherent safety of them, while trying to gain a better foothold for a better stroke.

The slow, spinny loop is essentially suicide if you throw one out when you could be performing the modern loopdrive. (Unless, you're playing a lower player and they struggle with topspin. Go ahead and throw very spinny loops at them and watch them make unforced errors.) (Very true.)

Now, we've all heard about the loopdrive. What it essentially is, is a very dynamic and powerful loop, with a swing geometry closer to a drive than a loop. You sacrifice just a little consistency and spin for far better speed, placement and accuracy while not actually giving up too much spin. It should have a very visible arc compared to a drive of somewhat comparable pace but much less so than a loop of a comparable pace.(Not the most clear description, but I get it: speed, arc, spin should be between a drive and brush loop.)

Many players, myself included, prefer to brush the ball than to drive the ball when looping. That is also what is taught in the west and what is considered correct. I would have to disagree. (Strongly disagree here. Based on my exposure to Chinese instruction, they (the east) emphasize brushing when looping.)

The reason why most players' natural swing is a straight line (confusing), where you essentially chop into the ball upwards (huh?) and your blade angle is close to or exact to your swing angle (those parameters define a predominantly brushing arm motion), is because it's easy and safe (I disagree, brushing thin is not easy and safe. You whiff often or you barely graze the ball and it falls into the net). You also do not have to involve the forearm when doing this, you can just pivot upwards from the elbow and you will produce a consistent shot of acceptable quality quite comfortably. (More confusion: how's pivoting from the elbow NOT involving the forearm?)

What you want to be doing is a swing geometry that starts more vertical and levels out more horizontal by the end of it. (In other words, a concave shaped swing path, as viewed from the side. Note concave vs convex is a hot, controversial topic on Chinese forums.) The best way to do this is to drive with the elbow starting close to the side of the body and finishing far and high from the body, with the blade angle closed, and your swing geometry more "closed" than your blade angle.  You're hitting more than you're brushing along the side of the ball, while still producing considerable topspin due to the blade angle and the lifting motion. (Not sure about this driving with the elbow business, but the blade and swing path angle relationship described is consistent with producing a topspin drive. The larger the angle subtended between blade and swing angles, the more hitting and less brushing, and vice versa. From my experience, topspin driving with tensors produce more topspin than with untuned Chinese rubbers like H3.)

The stroke mechanics when driving forwards is actually quite similar to traditional tennis (I disagree, having played tennis for more than a decade, but whatever, not important to the discussion here.). The forearm "lags" behind and on contact the elbow snaps violently across the body, (Not the best choice of words, but I can see Timo Boll's swing fitting this very rough description, in which case, not the right case to cite when discussing a topspin drive. Boll emphasizes brushing based on what I've seen.) to the left of your head, perhaps even nearly behind your head when looping very heavy backspin. Your arm will be quite extended just before contact and "loading up" for the snap. Of course, you will be relaxed when doing this.
Recovery is elliptical. (From watching how Chinese players warm up perhaps?)


The main point is to drive with the elbow and control the placement with the elbow, and not to brush in a straight line across (that's vertically across I presume, not side to side across) the ball. The reason you want to drive INTO the ball, while also performing the brushing motion upwards is because modern rubber responds better to sinking the ball into the sponge than skimming it across the topsheet. This is especially true for Chinese rubbers. (In my experience, with untuned Chinese rubbers like H3, focusing on driving or hitting into the ball with the arm sacrifices spin and arc dramatically.)

The stroke can be performed with European, Japanese, Chinese, whatever rubber. Chinese rubber just benefits a lot due to the technology. I play with non-top end European rubber, and the stroke has worked even with absolutely rubbish bats. 

Take a look at Ma Long for the perfect example of straight arm looping with this technique, and also compare your drive motion to his drive motion, especially what your body is doing during the movement. most examples I have seen posted here have "worse" body mechanics for this stroke. I call it "lazy posture". Too straight knees, not enough leaning the torso over to shift weight, not enough driving with the hips. Lazy. (Take into account your physical state, of course. Young players can do this better and you might have to adapt your style. This is from the perspective of a young adult.) 

When performing Ma Long's drive motion, you will most likely hit every ball into the net at first, unless you're using a very fast bat. In that case, get a slow wooden beginner's bat. (Contradictory!)

Once you begin to understand the timing for the hip and shoulder drive and the relation between body and arm mechanics, your regular drives will carry outstanding pace and quality, and you will probably outdo your current loop in everything expect pure topspin. Then once you're certain that your drive is good and you're not just "winging it" in terms of what feels right, you can start to incorporate it into your looping. (Lost me here. I thought the guy was talking about developing and using a topspin drive instead of a brush loop, but it now sounds like a tutorial for developing a solid FH counter stroke prior to a FH loop.)


Of course, don't blindly copy x player's strokes, especially if their serves and equipment largely differ from yours. Do compare the mechanics between their stroke and your stroke. Even in the CNT there's a dozen ways to skin a cat. They all share the same fundamental aspects, though. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsg4M6fOObI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-b-n4dHT5U

Some tips for the end:

Place weight on your soles and lift your heels slightly.
Squat lower than you normally do. Far lower. 
Learn further than you normally do. Not too much.
Have a wider stance than you normally do.
Have your rear leg further behind than you normally do. If out of position, prefer to push front leg than to pull rear leg. More balanced, less load transfer.
Strike the ball far more to the side, with your body at a 45 degree angle to the playing direction.
Lean forward through the entirety of the stroke.
Tense your core slightly, then fully tense it on impact and release.

You know you're doing it right when it feels like you're doing a crunch and squat at the same time.

Hope it helps and doesn't start a convex vs concave loop discussion. ;)

I'd love to give more tips on looping, but the body mechanics are essentially the same for driving and can be learned from observing pro players with great mechanics, and using your head. I also do not have any credibility, so yeah.

Gotta say these tips are a translation of common tips found on Chinese forums with a dash of the poster's interpretation for confusion at times. The poster's qualification means nothing to me, because I rely on my own common sense, judgement, and experience. I've read enough interpretations around different forums to sort out what works and what doesn't for me.


Edited by racquetsforsale - 03/16/2019 at 1:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 1:29pm
Back on topic, with regard to rotation, I'll add that don't develop exaggerated lag between the hips and upper torso. You lose power and increase risk of injury. NL gave a good tip about hopping on your feet when rotating to protect the knees. For righties, if you don't hop, at least turn your left foot on the balls of the foot or toes during the backswing, and turn your right foot on the balls of the foot or toes on the followthrough. Don't focus so much on rotation, that your upper torso is near perpendicular to the floor. Have a balanced amount of forward lean about the hips.

FWIW, I recently heard a commentator during a Chinese pro match on youtube say that the Chinese coaches are advising their players to reduce hip rotation to reduce back injuries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 2:03pm
To me, ZJK's FH displays the least amount of rotation among his teammates, especially compared to ML.
I think it's important to note that the thrust is no so much a forward thrust, but a thrust from the back leg to drive rotation of the hips. Yes, it should be done with caution. Be mindful of pre-existing conditions and warm up thoroughly. Also, it's not all or nothing. The hip turn doesn't have to be explosive (we're not pros making a living). Just coordinated is good enough.

For middle age and older folks like me, why not aim for developing strokes that will age well, like Waldner's and Persson's?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 2:06pm
About the parallel discussion that has been going on: it will be my last post here and I will start another one mentioning this one because nextlevel does need a pedestal to defend his position and define posting safeguards. People like blahness and I will make an effort to reach common grounds.

@nextlevel: protecting the newbies? I did not say you were but it can reach this way big time the same way blahness reaches to you as talking too much without the creds (from your perspective). I just wanted to oppose the 2 ideas that created sparks here.
I do consider you ahead and I know why (hours put in, real experience of one that really dove into a sportive AND spiritual journey over many years, passion for technique and the intelligence to support it in a senseful way), the long post you shared is laughable even though it has a lot of good things explained; the tone is so self-satisfying though so that would be a red flag to me, even as a newbie; the fact it was his only post and never posted again on ooak is another one. I understand why it pisses you off though: covering deep truths with a bullshit frosting and then mixing the whole and throwing it all on the forums promote the hardest posts to extract truth from. 
Thanks for sharing that, it’s a neat post to calibrate our bsmetter.

@slevin and ttgold: you have all the rights to express your annoyance but on another hand, letting nextlevel talk is important, we’d evolve towards tt anarchy if we didn’t have safeguards that keep us connected with the real deal, I think nl is one of those and we’d shoot ourselves in the foot if we alienate him. 
@blahness: thank you for being my online tt brother, we have a lot in common. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Note concave vs convex is a hot, controversial topic on Chinese forums.
Interesting topic. Could you give us a quick description of the controversy?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

About the parallel discussion that has been going on: it will be my last post here and I will start another one mentioning this one because nextlevel does need a pedestal to defend his position and define posting safeguards. People like blahness and I will make an effort to reach common grounds.

@nextlevel: protecting the newbies? I did not say you were but it can reach this way big time the same way blahness reaches to you as talking too much without the creds (from your perspective). I just wanted to oppose the 2 ideas that created sparks here.
I do consider you ahead and I know why (hours put in, real experience of one that really dove into a sportive AND spiritual journey over many years, passion for technique and the intelligence to support it in a senseful way), the long post you shared is laughable even though it has a lot of good things explained; the tone is so self-satisfying though so that would be a red flag to me, even as a newbie; the fact it was his only post and never posted again on ooak is another one. I understand why it pisses you off though: covering deep truths with a bullshit frosting and then mixing the whole and throwing it all on the forums promote the hardest posts to extract truth from. 
Thanks for sharing that, it’s a neat post to calibrate our bsmetter.

@slevin and ttgold: you have all the rights to express your annoyance but on another hand, letting nextlevel talk is important, we’d evolve towards tt anarchy if we didn’t have safeguards that keep us connected with the real deal, I think nl is one of those and we’d shoot ourselves in the foot if we alienate him. 
@blahness: thank you for being my online tt brother, we have a lot in common. 
of course nextlevel should talk. A little discussion is fine imo as well, but look at this thread. Out of the hundred posts, probably half of them consist of arguing. Especially using the quote function and quoting 7 different posts makes this thread unreadable. If one really gets into a longer argument he/she should either open a new thread or write in private.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Back on topic, with regard to rotation, I'll add that don't develop exaggerated lag between the hips and upper torso. You lose power and increase risk of injury. NL gave a good tip about hopping on your feet when rotating to protect the knees. For righties, if you don't hop, at least turn your left foot on the balls of the foot or toes during the backswing, and turn your right foot on the balls of the foot or toes on the followthrough. Don't focus so much on rotation, that your upper torso is near perpendicular to the floor. Have a balanced amount of forward lean about the hips.

FWIW, I recently heard a commentator during a Chinese pro match on youtube say that the Chinese coaches are advising their players to reduce hip rotation to reduce back injuries.
+1
I recently saw a video by Li Sun who went even further to advise against rotation at the waist (ie when the upper body rotates more than the hips causing torsion at the lower back). To achieve this, the shoulders should always be in line with the hips.  Apparently that is the source of many lower back injuries (torsion of the lower back). He is of the opinion that it is too slow anyway, and the legs/hips provide more than enough power anyway. 


Edited by blahness - 03/16/2019 at 8:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Back on topic, with regard to rotation, I'll add that don't develop exaggerated lag between the hips and upper torso. You lose power and increase risk of injury. NL gave a good tip about hopping on your feet when rotating to protect the knees. For righties, if you don't hop, at least turn your left foot on the balls of the foot or toes during the backswing, and turn your right foot on the balls of the foot or toes on the followthrough. Don't focus so much on rotation, that your upper torso is near perpendicular to the floor. Have a balanced amount of forward lean about the hips.

FWIW, I recently heard a commentator during a Chinese pro match on youtube say that the Chinese coaches are advising their players to reduce hip rotation to reduce back injuries.
+1
I recently saw a video by Li Sun who went even further to advise against rotation at the waist (ie when the upper body rotates more than the hips causing torsion at the lower back). To achieve this, the shoulders should always be in line with the hips.  Apparently that is the source of many lower back injuries (torsion of the lower back). He is of the opinion that it is too slow anyway, and the legs/hips provide more than enough power anyway. 
Look at harimoto's forehand topspin. He rotates his upper body way too much. It works for him right now, but it'll eventually lead to injury.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 9:01pm
On the off topic discussion, apologies for that, I was a bit carried away because I saw a valuable thread being derailed and dismissed. I can definitely see from NextLevel's point of view now, if someone new to TT just applied all these discussions without appropriate context it could be quite harmful, the ridiculously vague (but smart sounding?!) post copied from OOAK was a perfect illustration for it. Unfortunately, in a forum I doubt there's much we can do if we are to keep it open, except for calling out the inaccuracies and BS in these posts whenever we see it (rather than an active censorship policy!). I believe the majority will definitely notice and call it out (even I would do that, in fact I agree with most of NextLevel's posts in terms of his understanding of technique which is generally very solid). We have to  believe that the side of truth will win out! But thats just my opinion about it.

All of us discussing here have some reasonable fundamentals in TT which we were discussing some of the finer details of strokes here, maybe we need some sort of disclaimer here?
 


Edited by blahness - 03/16/2019 at 9:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Back on topic, with regard to rotation, I'll add that don't develop exaggerated lag between the hips and upper torso. You lose power and increase risk of injury. NL gave a good tip about hopping on your feet when rotating to protect the knees. For righties, if you don't hop, at least turn your left foot on the balls of the foot or toes during the backswing, and turn your right foot on the balls of the foot or toes on the followthrough. Don't focus so much on rotation, that your upper torso is near perpendicular to the floor. Have a balanced amount of forward lean about the hips.

FWIW, I recently heard a commentator during a Chinese pro match on youtube say that the Chinese coaches are advising their players to reduce hip rotation to reduce back injuries.
+1
I recently saw a video by Li Sun who went even further to advise against rotation at the waist (ie when the upper body rotates more than the hips causing torsion at the lower back). To achieve this, the shoulders should always be in line with the hips.  Apparently that is the source of many lower back injuries (torsion of the lower back). He is of the opinion that it is too slow anyway, and the legs/hips provide more than enough power anyway. 
Look at harimoto's forehand topspin. He rotates his upper body way too much. It works for him right now, but it'll eventually lead to injury.
Now that you mentioned it I agree with you... (posted on another thread already).

I watched some other videos by Li Sun and Guo Yan... Guo Yan was of the opinion that the purpose of the core is not rotation but rather bracing and stabilisation. It should be ensuring that there is a direct path of power transfer from the legs/hip rotation to the hand. 

I would say that my previous posts on the rotation of the core is wrong then. The best exercises in the gym that correspond to core stabilisation is probably the antirotation exercises (Pallof presses), barbell squats and controlled pullups. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

That’s where the ideal amount of hips thrust is hard for me to grasp. On that Harimoto video blahness posted, are the hips thrust and torso rotating vastly faster that what the legs have allowed with legs jumping on a circle? I hardly see an exaggerated hips thrust, the legs work is fantastic, he his going as high a fh level as LGY but with a European style. TH’s fh reminds me a better trained Michael Maze.

I believe it's not the hip thrust that's the issue but the torsion caused by the upper body rotating beyond what the hips have allowed. It allows more power yes which is the short term benefit, but biomechanically I would say I can understand where Li Sun is coming from. Most materials are the weakest in torsion (it is indeed a very common failure mode!), so imagine placing your lower back in torsion 1000x a day from FH practice over many many years, i can't imagine that being good for the lower back!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 12:10am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

That’s where the ideal amount of hips thrust is hard for me to grasp. On that Harimoto video blahness posted, are the hips thrust and torso rotating vastly faster that what the legs have allowed with legs jumping on a circle? I hardly see an exaggerated hips thrust, the legs work is fantastic, he his going as high a fh level as LGY but with a European style. TH’s fh reminds me a better trained Michael Maze.

I believe it's not the hip thrust that's the issue but the torsion caused by the upper body rotating beyond what the hips have allowed. It allows more power yes which is the short term benefit, but biomechanically I would say I can understand where Li Sun is coming from. Most materials are the weakest in torsion (it is indeed a very common failure mode!), so imagine placing your lower back in torsion 1000x a day from FH practice over many many years, i can't imagine that being good for the lower back!

To add to that, this torsion will be present whenever the upper body is not in sync with the lower body rotation as racquetsforsale mentioned, so any sort  of lag is definitely something to avoid!

Edit: This should apply for the BH too tbh ie trying to have the shoulders in line with the hips at all times.....

Edit:After some experimenting, I haven't found a way of rotating the hips on the BH tbh....it seems that the only viable power source is unbowing action (ie the reverse of taking a bow).But that unbowing action is probably strong enough that we don't need other power sources.  The only way hip rotation is sort of comfortable is when the right leg is in front of the left which is a rare situation...

Edit: Just tested the strokes a bit more, if I remove the waist rotation completely from my strokes, the legs have to take up the slack. I thought I was athletic especially on the legs lol....and this tired my thighs up in like 10 mins... Time to get back to the gym and squat more!



Edited by blahness - 03/17/2019 at 2:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 1:12am
Tbh, im just speculating in the posts above. It would be really good to get someone with some professional knowledge of biomechanics to chip in (like Baal perhaps?!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:25am
Just found an English sub for Li Sun's video and putting it here for discussion.






Edited by blahness - 03/17/2019 at 2:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 3:21am
Found another Samsonov video and noticed that he has close to no waist rotation, it's all in the hips and his upper torso rotation follows the hip rotation extremely closely. Also he has no waist or hip rotation in the BH.
Extremely efficient and healthy technique he has imo...


I never remembered a time where Samsonov got injured lol...Some of the older players might have a bit more knowledge here...


Edited by blahness - 03/17/2019 at 4:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 6:50am
he injured his rib in the Olympic Games against ovtcharov I believe. Also the part about the torsion has been discussed on the harimoto forehand thread already. Go look it up and you'll find some useful things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

he injured his rib in the Olympic Games against ovtcharov I believe. Also the part about the torsion has been discussed on the harimoto forehand thread already. Go look it up and you'll find some useful things.

Haha the discussion there is heating up...

The rib is a really weird place to get injured imo....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:22pm
why? I don't remember what happened, but if you fall on the floor you might injure your rib. There are two types of injuries. Accidents like hitting something or falling down. And injuries that came over time, like using your shoulder excessively, having too much torsion and injuring the back, doing squats wrong and injuring your knees. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Just found an English sub for Li Sun's video and putting it here for discussion.





According to the presenter in the top video, the new ball has resulted in faster ball speeds, higher shot quality, and extended rallies. As a result, there's no time to turn the waist. He also says the Chinese now realize turning the waist causes injuries and they no longer consider it correct technique. He's advocating eliminating waist rotation, but I think he really meant (and was demonstrating) a smaller waist rotation and less relative rotation between the upper torso and the hips. At the end of the backswing, instead of the hips either facing the table or the net post and a full shoulder turn perpendicular to the table, the upper torso is more aligned with the hips and both rotate much less through the stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shaks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Found another Samsonov video and noticed that he has close to no waist rotation, it's all in the hips and his upper torso rotation follows the hip rotation extremely closely. Also he has no waist or hip rotation in the BH.
Extremely efficient and healthy technique he has imo...


I never remembered a time where Samsonov got injured lol...Some of the older players might have a bit more knowledge here...
You arent seeing it. I see that he uses his feet,hips,waist to drive the ball. I also saw him live and it is a different perspective. It is impossible to beat a high level chopper like huo Yingchao without the use of legs to push up and the hips to drive the ball forward.


Edited by shaks - 03/17/2019 at 10:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by shaks shaks wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Found another Samsonov video and noticed that he has close to no waist rotation, it's all in the hips and his upper torso rotation follows the hip rotation extremely closely. Also he has no waist or hip rotation in the BH.
Extremely efficient and healthy technique he has imo...


I never remembered a time where Samsonov got injured lol...Some of the older players might have a bit more knowledge here...
You arent seeing it. I see that he uses his feet,hips,waist to drive the ball. I also saw him live and it is a different perspective. 
The videos don't lie, he keeps his shoulders in line with his hips at all times...which is a sign of almost no waist rotation. What I mean by no waist means that the upper torso doesn't rotate relative to the hips. Also training and match play is different. In matches it's likely he'll be forced to do some waist rotation in bad positions....
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