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Critique my game #2

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dingyibvs View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/21/2011 at 2:44am
I posted a video of me playing a couple of months ago and got some great feedback(this thread: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42471&title=critique-my-game).  I've worked on some of the aspects I was recommended with over the past couple of months, and I recorded a few videos earlier this week.  I hope to get some more of the excellent advice I received since last time!

I'm the guy in the grey wifebeater

First video:

Second video:

Third video:

As mentioned in the last thread, I decided to work on my backhand first and foremost, and I've developed a spin-based BH.  I've had a back injury for quite a while, so I haven't been able to practice my forehand much, although I did get a bit more consistent in smashing, have better placement, and I changed my rubbers from H3Neo/Pro XT to M2/Moon, FH/BH respectively.  I've also developed some new services, although the people in the videos play against me pretty often so it's not quite as effective against them.  I've done a few shadow training sessions and my footwork has improved sliiiightly, but due to the back injury I haven't been able to do it more often, unfortunately.

My first opponent is a Jpen player with Acuda S1 on FH and Grass D.Tecs OX on the BH.  My second opponent uses Hammond Pro alpha FH and some type of short pips with sponge on the BH.  The three videos are taken back-to-back in chronological order, and as always, I took these videos near the end of a 5 hour club session(when not many ppl are around so no fear of someone knocking over my camera!) so I was pretty exhausted by the 3rd consecutive match.

And oh, I got a better camera, though it goes out of focus occasionally, I'd say it's a pretty big improvement over the previous one LOL (watch in 720p!)


Edited by dingyibvs - 08/21/2011 at 2:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2011 at 4:40am

Some important things to work on...

1) You need to loosen up when you play because you look really stiff and tense which hurts the amount of power/spin your entire body in harmony can translate into the ball.
2) Your stance is too high... you need to bend your knees and get much lower instead of just bending your back... match the height of each incoming ball. (Doesn't help that your opponents are giving you alot of high balls... you'll notice your high stance will start to really hurt you when you play higher levels who can consistently keep it low and tight. At that point you'll always be "looking down.")
3) Due to your stance being so high, you're barely using any leg power or waist power. Your stroke uses all arm swing/wrist. Power doesn't come from swinging your arm faster or harder... it comes from using your legs and waist.
4) You overuse BH. Transition footwork back to FH needs work.
5) Alot of misreading of spin and popups.
6) Alot of the balls that you BH loop... the BH loop might not be the best shot selection especially with the height they're giving it to you. You can punch or BH drive alot of those for more speed vs spin. If the incoming ball is low... then use your high arc BH loop. 
7) Your serves look spinny but the bounce is really high. Need to learn to get them lower and tighter.
 
Good luck!


Edited by Rack - 08/21/2011 at 4:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2011 at 4:49am
Brave man! I have no time right now, but will come back to this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ninglei23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2011 at 5:07am
Amazing BH!Clap but you have to work on your forehand in each vid it looks like it's desame nothing changed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2011 at 10:34am
Your backhand is looking pretty good - but you depend on it too much.  For example when you ran around a FH on a serve to hit a backhand.  I'd like to see the BH against more difficult balls though.  Most balls to your backhand were high and long so you didn't get a good test.  I'd like to see it against a good push/serve (low and spinny).  I'm not saying it won't be effective, but a lot of the shots balls seemed like training shots.
You really need to work on your serves.  I saw very few short/half long serves and most were high.  They did look spinny, but if they are long they will be attacked by a better player.  
It looked like you were getting tired as the matches went on because you weren't moving as well or resetting as quickly.
You need to work on keeping your pushes low as well.  The guys you played had some trouble killing them, but better players won't.

If you have an opportunity, take a video of yourself playing against a better player so you can more easily see your weaknesses.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikepong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2011 at 10:46am
you need to bend your knees more, it can make your loops easier
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2011 at 1:05pm
Everything that has already been said though serves are pretty good in my opinion, you just need more placement variation on them (mix short and long). Also it seems like your opponents aren't very good. It would be better to see you play against better opponents. Both of them can't land a single attack and they keep popping up their blocks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2011 at 4:49pm
In the first vid you were prepared to get to your forehand quickly and successfully and in the other two it seemed like you wanted to focus on your backhand which was your objective, you are getting good advice, and any leg work (will help your the pressure on your back anyway) I think one main objective is to not push every forehand receive of service as this will be a bad habit against better players, so just be a bit more ready get lower and say if it come long on that side Im looping (your whole game confidence will go up)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2011 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Everything that has already been said though serves are pretty good in my opinion, you just need more placement variation on them (mix short and long). Also it seems like your opponents aren't very good. It would be better to see you play against better opponents. Both of them can't land a single attack and they keep popping up their blocks.


Agreed. It would be interesting to see how you fend off against far more aggressive players compared to the ones you played against on the vids. 

Btw, Clap

why? Cuz ive had an injured back for about 3 months now and still going strong on the tt practice
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2011 at 6:11pm
one thing I noticed immediately in the first video is how late you are reading the ball. You wouldn't move or get ready for the shot until the ball bounced on your side of the table. This can lead to your stiff positioning because you are jerking yourself around last second to get a shot on the ball. If you can focus on reading the ball earlier and earlier, you will be able to move sooner, and it will be much easier on your body. It should be automatic from the time you see where the ball is going to where you are moving. You seem to be capable of moving and swinging pretty fast, but the difference is that you're forcing yourself to. So if you can make yourself ready sooner then you could really take advantage of how fast you are capable of moving.  
 
This seems like it can solve a lot of your problems in some of the feedback you're getting. So I'd start throwing my focus there.


Edited by beeray1 - 08/21/2011 at 6:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2011 at 7:03pm
Thanks for the feedback!

1) I agree that my stance is too high, I've actually just started working on that yesterday.  So far, I'm still drifting high when I get into a rally.  It'll take some time.

2) I'm going through a sort of "mentality change", where I'm trying to be more aggressive.  Actually, I've been doing that for the past few months as I develop more offensive shots.  That results in a good deal of hesitation and sometimes poor decision making.  It's especially bad in the first video, because his use of LP really confuses me and makes me hesitate more.  If you'll notice, I miss a lot of his LP blocks unless it's from far away from the table when I have plenty of time to process things.

3) Yeah, I did try to use more BH in the last 2 videos.  Part of it is intentional, part of it is just me getting more tired and too lazy to move in position for a FH shot.

4) As for my BH loop, I've focused on doing spinny loops thus far, so that's my default shot unless it's a very obvious smash.  I'm going to start practicing more loop-drives and smashes and incorporate them into my game.  With the constant mentality changes, though, I expect my hesitation to last quite a while longer!

5) As for my service, my regular pendulum service isn't bad, I try to vary the spin and placement quite a bit with it, and I can keep it pretty low and short if I want.  My more complicated services though are much more difficult to control, and I'll work on keeping those lower and shorter.  I have a ton of trouble executing a well-disguised short and low reverse pendulum service in particular.

6) I'll definitely try to record some videos vs. players that are more aggressive.  The second guy I played is actually a fairly aggressive player...except when playing against me.  I attack right off the service or the service return against him, and he never gets enough opportunities to get into an attacking rhythm.  He's actually gotten a LOT better in blocking and lobbing because he's been training with me once a week for the past 3 weeks.

7) As for my opposition, the first guy is an ~1700 player, but he can beat higher rated aggressive players while losing to lower rated defensive players.  It seems to be that the more aggressive you are, the worse below your level you'll play against him.  The second guy hasn't played in a tournament in over a year, but the last time he did he got rated ~1500.  He's been playing a lot the last few weeks, I expect him to be a bit better now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2011 at 7:25pm

Your opponents don't seem anywhere near 1700 or 1500.  They would be rated much much lower in So Cal unless they're totally not playing serious against you.  I would rate them probably between 1000-1300 Max and thats just giving them a lil credit for having a spinny serve and using pips that lower levels have trouble with.  All their returns seem very very weak and passive with too many misreads and high returns.  I see no consistency in their attacking either... they both just step back and passively block high for you to hit most of the time with the occasional step around and "smack as hard as I can" finish which they miss.  I could see 1500-1700 if they could keep their blocks decently low and tight with the pips which 1700's can do decently.  1700's here would totally hammer both of them with relative ease given such returns.



Edited by Rack - 08/21/2011 at 7:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 2:16am

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Your opponents don't seem anywhere near 1700 or 1500.
 

i suppose dingyibvs knows approx rating of his opponents, or he's guessing? he can confirm what is true

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 2:22am
It's well known already that California has a stronger player rating point for rating point isnt it? doesn't mean California is the normal. That kind of phenomena happens everywhere that rating systems cover large areas and there's not a lot of mixing between those distant players
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 2:41am
I think I could give dingyibvs a challenge. His opponents weren't that aggresive and gave dingyibvs too much time to look good.   I think he is closer to me in the 1200 range.

There are too many high balls in the video that I would simply flat hit and instead of dingyibvs being the aggressor, as in the videos, he would be on the defensive. The serves are to high an not tricky enough.

It does appear that dingyibbs has a pretty good FH loop but I block against those all the time so no problem there. I am an old foggy that will not return the ball where dingyibvs will want it and I like blocking balls right off the bounce so the looper is caught off guard.

I would give myself even chances but I don't claim to be anywhere near 1600.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 3:10am

i watched previously put video for commenting between same opponents (david and shek). i noticed that david (dingyibvs) improved his game and took control over the match, and what helped him greately that he has developed good BH return of opponents serve, so he is being more aggressive on return and he lowered his return greatly. thus he avoids punishments from opponent, which he received from his opponent quite a bit

david attacks with FH drives very directly and fast. i don't know if it is his regular style, but i'd say that this style of attacking pays off against opponent that he has if he is able to attack with enough consistency. and his FH consistency shown on that video is not bad in most of the match. these balls are strong and much harder to control with pips being that fast. when you deal with LP sometimes it is much smarter not to overdo spin, but instead of to use power when you have a chance

his opponent (shek) twiddles and attacks whenever he has opportunity, so it is naturally that it brings his level up as this style should get him number of victories from players that don't handle twiddlers that well. so, i'd say that his level is not that low as, say, 1200. if i had to guess, 1500 seems not overestimated



Edited by friendship - 08/22/2011 at 4:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 3:21am
Originally posted by friendship friendship wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Your opponents don't seem anywhere near 1700 or 1500.
 

i suppose dingyibvs knows approx rating of his opponents, or he's guessing? he can confirm what is true


Nah, I know their ratings for a fact.  I don't want to reveal their full names so I can't give you their USATT pages, so you'll just have to take my word for it.  Shek was ranked above 1700 through 6 tournaments before the last two, where a couple of bad losses dropped him to the mid 1600's.  Paul is rated almost exactly 1500 right now, and he'll play in a tournament this weekend so we'll see if that's changed.

While  Florida isn't exactly a mecca for TT, I don't think it's below national average either!  Maybe we can get Brian Pace to comment on the level of competition down here, he coaches at a club I visit sometimes.  Now, I don't know what my rating would be since I won't be attending a tourney until late October at the earliest, but I do think that the 1200 guy who thinks he can beat me might be a tad bit over optimistic Wink

As for that guy Shek...you really wouldn't know how difficult it is to beat him until you play him.  Everybody in the club says the same thing, he looks so easy to play against, until you actually play against him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 12:19pm
Hey thanks for posting, some good games and your backhand has improved tremendously!

But that setup looks like it makes safe 2nd ball pushes impossible!
Everything was pushed back three feet in the air!
(I push and pick hit a lot, so I can only comment on strokes that I have some experience with).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 12:28pm
You play at an ROC community center? Nice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote comeglan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 2:53pm
Not bad.. i like your attitude (attacking the serve) and yet you're not blatantly overpowering the ball.  keep focusing on controlled bh flips.  (but use more than just ur arm)

But i see you have the same problem that i do, in that you tense up when they start attacking because you're used to being the aggressor.

Also your fh opener is all arm and you're not using the rest of your body.  Which I have the tendency to do as well.  But it could be that you're nervous.. is this a tourney? or just normal play?

And sometimes, your dominant foot is forward sometimes after you push return a serve.. and then you do a fh loop.. and you have no footing to add any power from the ground.

Basically, you remind me of me.. a while back.  Thinking that you can rely on 3rd ball attacks and maybe 2nd ball attacks, if you move fast enough.. And then you'll come to the realization that the people you're playing with arent really putting that much underspin on the ball.  People who are 1300-1600 level people who rely on side spin/top spin serves that are more 1/2" above the net height than dont double bounce will never give you heavy underspin serves.  I bet, if you come across some old guy who knows how to add decent underspin to any ball, then you will lose every single time, and you'll be kicking urself in the head, wondering why your loops dont go in.

Basically, what i'm trying to say is, its time to move on.  Stop playing these gimicky players and start challenging whatever 2000 players are at your club.  It's time to learn how to use your legs, and its time to learn how to give heavy under, so you will get heavy under, so in turn, you will be able to practice looping heavy under.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 3:30pm
If you want to reach 1900-2000, my advice is to have a partner do multiball training with you.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 6:17pm
I always have to say this, just concentrate more than anything on hitting the table, if it means hitting the ball slower, then do that. At the level you are playing, more points are won from errors than clean winners, watch the tape and count this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

It's well known already that California has a stronger player rating point for rating point isnt it? doesn't mean California is the normal. That kind of phenomena happens everywhere that rating systems cover large areas and there's not a lot of mixing between those distant players


No, I don't think so.  I hear this debated,  but I don't see much difference when I go to the Nationals or Open where there are players from all over the country playing each other.  Playing style and how many matches you played to get your rating probably have more to do with what the number tells us than location.  It is common for people to underrate players when looking at video.

Also, I like APW46's advice a lot!  Matches between sub-2000 level players are usually determined more by errors than by outright winners and/or forced errors from strong shots. 


Edited by wturber - 08/22/2011 at 7:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caishl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2011 at 7:12pm
Get yourself a good level coach over 2000 to help you use more waist, shorten the swing and lower your center of gravity after the serve.  Bend knees wider stance.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2011 at 1:46am
icontek:  Thanks!  I think my bad pushes are more my fault, I do have trouble pushing it short and low at the same time.

Nori:  I think it's actually a HK place, but they have stuff commemorating the KMT in there.

comeplan:  This is just normal play, but I have trouble opening with my FH with a regular loop, I can only do it through a loop drive it seem.  I do play an old guy who gives a ton of backspin, that's Shek right there lol.  And yes, I do lose just about every single time LOL

rr: Yeah, I actually just started multiball training with Paul in the 2nd and 3rd videos on Saturday.  We're not that good at serving the ball yet, he's especially bad, but we'll get better I'm sure!

APW:  I do try to keep the ball on the table, that's why you see me really chicken arming my loops when I get into a rally.  I can't seem to do a controlled loop well vs. backspin, so I always loop drive it.  It's just a consequence of learning without a coach, got the order messed up, but I'm working on my regular loop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote comeglan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2011 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

icontek:  Thanks!  I think my bad pushes are more my fault, I do have trouble pushing it short and low at the same time.

Nori:  I think it's actually a HK place, but they have stuff commemorating the KMT in there.

comeplan:  This is just normal play, but I have trouble opening with my FH with a regular loop, I can only do it through a loop drive it seem.  I do play an old guy who gives a ton of backspin, that's Shek right there lol.  And yes, I do lose just about every single time LOL

rr: Yeah, I actually just started multiball training with Paul in the 2nd and 3rd videos on Saturday.  We're not that good at serving the ball yet, he's especially bad, but we'll get better I'm sure!

APW:  I do try to keep the ball on the table, that's why you see me really chicken arming my loops when I get into a rally.  I can't seem to do a controlled loop well vs. backspin, so I always loop drive it.  It's just a consequence of learning without a coach, got the order messed up, but I'm working on my regular loop.

As long as you got the attitude, i think thats the most important part.  If anything, ping pong teaches you how to accept losing.  Whether you accept it gracefully and with an attitude to learn from your mistakes is up to you.  Keep it up and keep posting the vids.  You're one of the few who has the courage to post.  I'd like to keep an eye on your progress.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/24/2011 at 3:04am
Alright, thanks again for all the advice guys!  Getting a coach is not an option for me, so I look to this place to get some coaching :)  I'll definitely keep my attitude, use the games at the club as a learning experience, and emphasize learning over winning.

After reading these comments, I think I'll focus on these three things next:

1) FH consistency.  It'll start with a consistent motion driven from the waist and as I get more advanced, more from the legs as well.

2) Footwork/stance.  I have a bad habit of hitting a shot and waiting till the opponent returns the shot before moving, at least when I'm not in a topspin rally.  That's a mental thing, I'll need to get used to moving after every shot/serve.  Of course, I'll also work on lowering my stance.

3) BH attack.  I'll develop some more aggressive blocks, punch blocks, and loop-drives.

I tried to implement these three things last night at the club, and I actually beat the old guy Shek! It was mainly the result of improved FH consistency, and a little bit from the footwork.  The stance didn't stick, still need to work on that, and the BH attack was a mess.  I've been working on my FH the past week or so, since I've finally become more confident in my back, and it's already paying off :D  If I recorded the match today you would've seen a very different FH, a lot more controlled swing and less direct.  I'll record another series of videos in a couple of months and get some more pointers.
Blade: DHS DM-1000 CPEN
FH: Tenergy 05 2.1
BH: Acuda S3 Max
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dingyibvs View Drop Down
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Location: Florida
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Points: 1218
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/07/2011 at 3:39am
Just a little update.  I beat Shek 3-0 tonight...two matches in a row!  I'd only won 3-2 vs. him maybe 3 or 4 times before in a bajillion tries, and I'd never won against him two weeks in a row let alone two matches in a row.  And 3-0 at that!(none of the games were really close either)  I also beat two guys I'd never beaten before.  Against one of them, the best I'd ever done was a 1-3 loss, which happened once, in about 10 tries.  Today, however, I beat him in a tight 3-2 match.  I won primarily due to improvements in the 3 areas I outlined in the previous post.  I took a bit steam off my FH, added a bit of steam to my BH, and improved my footwork slightly(this is turning out to be the toughest area to improve, due to how much effort is involved every point).  Anyhow, I was just pretty excited about my progress and wanted to thank everyone who generously offered their very valuable advice!

Edited by dingyibvs - 09/07/2011 at 3:42am
Blade: DHS DM-1000 CPEN
FH: Tenergy 05 2.1
BH: Acuda S3 Max
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GwaiLo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/07/2011 at 11:04pm
The biggest thing that I noticed in your strokes, was that you are not swinging through the ball.  Instead, you are swinging up.  I used to do this, because I wanted to just have a really spinny forehand, but you need some more power on your forehand.  If you move your feet, get around the ball, and swing through the ball, your forehand would pretty much be perfect.
Blade: Butterfly Photino

FH: Tenergy 05

BH: Tenergy 64
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