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    Posted: 02/19/2016 at 12:38am
Hey everyone.  Lowly usatt 900 here again.  Smile

Since you all are awesome and the feedback on my backhand loop was so great, I'm taking NextLevel's advice to work on more than one thing at a time and starting work on my forehand loop inspired by Brett Clarke of course in his excellent video here:



Here is a video hot off the press of a developing FH in its infancy.  (Around 2:35 the camera angle changes for high head on view)  



I see a few things that may be issues, but I'd like to hear feedback from the group on what needs to be fixed so that I don't groove bad technique as I increase practice with the robot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2016 at 12:48am
Nice upper body rotation and follow through on your stroke!  Your loops seem to be getting a good amount of pace and spin from what I can tell on the video.

My suggestion would be to take your right foot back a bit behind your left so you're standing at an angle to the table instead of parallel head-on and contact the ball a bit more in front of you.  You can observe a large majority of chinese players standing this way when they take a forehand.

My second tip is somewhat preference but was also insisted on to me by my former coach Shao Yu and current coach Stellan Bengtsson as I was developing as well:  Try to reduce your arm backswing on your stroke (standing with your right leg back a bit will help).  Use your body rotation as the backswing instead of moving your elbow independently of your body.  This will help you synchronize your body rotation and weight shift with your swing for better connection on the ball and consequentially more power for less effort.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanhao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2016 at 1:55am
I am also trying to reduce my backswing after i video myself..but initially its like the ball lacks power but i rather do it more stylish like a pro swing FH to impress others...hahaha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2016 at 1:57am
Stroke looks pretty good. Relaxed and there's some good acceleration there. The thing you might want to work on his your stance. In general you should be slightly further away from the table and lean forwards (your head should be in front of your torso not behind). This will allow you to transfer a lot more energy from the legs and the core.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2016 at 6:52am
No need to turn more since you are a two winged looper - foot positioning is good. Take blahness's advice and step back a little and lean forward a little more.

Stroke is good but you are swinging too hard. Biggest mistake adult learners make (unlike kids who have no power to begin with so they mainly get the form and get the power as they age into stronger bodies) is to swing too hard too early in the learning proceas.   Slow down, brush the ball more. Over time, you will experiment with your contact points and timing and learn about the stroke.

That said, this is amazingly good for a 900 adult.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tommy16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2016 at 7:29am
Your sroke mechanism seems really good. I can´t tell for sure but from these angles it seems that your contact point is a little bit too front (is this correct way to say it in english?). What I mean is that you should let the ball come to the line with your body at the moment your contact point seems to be in fronth your body. 

Keep up the good work!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlowMover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2016 at 12:14pm
Ok, thanks for the comments everyone.  Great to know that I'm on the right track.

Needing to bend forward more at the waist is one of the things I noticed when comparing to BC's video, so thanks for confirming that.

The other thing was that my elbow didn't end at 90 degrees and I thought someone was going to say I needed more elbow snap, although I guess this guy doesn't bring it to 90 degrees either :)

One reason I was so close to the table is that the balls were falling off not far from the end line and if I moved back, my contact point would be even further forward relative to my body. I'll set the robot to shoot a bit further and take a step back.

NL, can you elaborate on the reason for slowing down?  Is it to force a natural fluid stroke using the core to swing the arm?  When I was doing the backhand loop, you told me to "get that core moving and rip that ball."  What is different about the forehand that I should not practice that way in this case?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2016 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by SlowMover SlowMover wrote:

Ok, thanks for the comments everyone.  Great to know that I'm on the right track.

Needing to bend forward more at the waist is one of the things I noticed when comparing to BC's video, so thanks for confirming that.

The other thing was that my elbow didn't end at 90 degrees and I thought someone was going to say I needed more elbow snap, although I guess this guy doesn't bring it to 90 degrees either :)

One reason I was so close to the table is that the balls were falling off not far from the end line and if I moved back, my contact point would be even further forward relative to my body. I'll set the robot to shoot a bit further and take a step back.

NL, can you elaborate on the reason for slowing down?  Is it to force a natural fluid stroke using the core to swing the arm?  When I was doing the backhand loop, you told me to "get that core moving and rip that ball."  What is different about the forehand that I should not practice that way in this case?

Yes it is, but there are other reasons as well.  My usual advice is to practice at a variety of speeds and effort levels, with about 60-90% at low to medium effort and 10-40% at medium to high levels.  This is true for both sides.  I guess online I have a bias for what I think the person I am watching is not comfortable with.

"Ripping that ball" is relative to what you are doing.  In that video, your form looked correct, so the advice was to see what would happen as you pushed it.  In this video, you are already pushing it even with good form, so I am trying to get you to slow down.

Ultimately, you should feel relaxed while playing strokes in TT.  Yes, when playing faster players or being pushed to your max, there is stress.  But you should be able to make good strokes at a pace that allows you to do other things in TT, especially as an adult learner.

After you learn these strokes, as I tell many people, your form will be arguably better than mine.  But then you still have to accumulate TT experience at reading the ball, moving and preparing the shot, executing the shot, point construction/play sequencing etc.  And to learn those things in a match while trying to hit the ball as hard as you can every single time is a nightmare.  And some people will tell you to do this - don't.  It just turns you crazy and doesn't work.

That's the reason why it is best to build consistent spin strokes based on adjusting your stroke to the read of the the spin on the ball first before looping hard.  These spin strokes should still be loops, but they should be loops you do with good spin and very relaxed.  Then you get a feel for what happens when you increase speed and reduce spin or try to increase both etc.  You can swing at the ball at different points or with different racket angles and see whether the ball arcs more or less.  You can try to loop on the left side of the ball or the right side of the ball.  Finish right eye or finish at left eye etc.  You can brush less or brush more, brush thicker or brush thinner.  See the effects on the ball. 

But it is a mistake as an amateur to loop at one fast speed all the time.  It's just too much work.  It places too much pressure on skills that you don't have.  When your ball timing catches up, you can make good choices about when to loop slow and when to loop hard.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2016 at 1:21pm
I'm not NL, but I'm going through more or less the same exact stroke. It looks pretty good and I don't think you are really grooving anything real bad.

Making solid contact with good spin is key. Continue to have a loose wrist too. You are also going a little shallow with this stroke at times. It just helps to slow down a little and feel that spin. At your level I think you could go much slower and still absolutely destroy 1200s.

The backhand seems to have a critical speed that if not met, doesn't work - all you have is your elbow and wrist to do the work. The forehand is such a bigger swing (legs, torso, shoulder, elbow, wrist all can work together) you can sacrifice some speed for consistency. When warming up I'll start with a much slower stroke with good spin and after a bit I'll have a faster one too.

Try doing this same stroke against backspin too - you'll learn why the stroke isn't really about power but more about getting spin on the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlowMover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2016 at 2:14pm
Thanks guys.  I will mix up the speeds at which I practice adding a good amount of slower strokes and  I will vary the speed/spin ratio.  Of course, I will also practice against both backspin and topspin.

I don't get to use such a nice stroke in matches since.

*I don't move enough
*I don't anticipate enough
*I'm too tense in the middle of a point

Not that I don't attempt to loop, just that I don't loop with good form in a match.

I think my best opportunities initially will be when I get slower long serves that give me more time.

One last thing, and I hope I'm not opening up something too controversial.  I like to leave the wrist loose and relaxed until contacting the ball when I often consciously add a bit of forward/upward movement basically parallel  to the bat angle.  Is this acceptable or am I going to regret it sometime down the road.  It really seems to add spin with negligible additional effort.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2016 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by SlowMover SlowMover wrote:

Thanks guys.  I will mix up the speeds at which I practice adding a good amount of slower strokes and  I will vary the speed/spin ratio.  Of course, I will also practice against both backspin and topspin.

I don't get to use such a nice stroke in matches since.

*I don't move enough
*I don't anticipate enough
*I'm too tense in the middle of a point

Not that I don't attempt to loop, just that I don't loop with good form in a match.

I think my best opportunities initially will be when I get slower long serves that give me more time.

One last thing, and I hope I'm not opening up something too controversial.  I like to leave the wrist loose and relaxed until contacting the ball when I often consciously add a bit of forward/upward movement basically parallel  to the bat angle.  Is this acceptable or am I going to regret it sometime down the road.  It really seems to add spin with negligible additional effort.



Looking at the front view, there are a few things I didn't notice that you can fix:

1.  Relax the lower arm and wrist a little more - it seems that your arm gets tight after contact and that you arm seems relatively locked.
2.  There are a variety of things that people do with their wrists in a relaxed fashion when looping.  I don't see anything majorly wrong on the video, but I would say that just relax it quite a bit.
3.  You may want to get your elbow out a bit more so that your strokes all flow from the same elbow position which will improve your integration of your forehand and backhand strokes.  That's part of the reason why the stroke seems to finish relatively low and sometimes across the body.
4.  Try to give the ball more clearance over the net.  Even your best efforts clear the net with barely any margin even though there is clearly quality spin.

The point of having a slower relaxed stroke with which you can take the ball sometimes later if necessary is to give you time to move and anticipate while playing so that your tension doesn't require you to jump on the ball every time.  It enables you to play both closer to and further back from the table with a relaxed manner.  As you get better, you can decide to play more aggressively or still play with a slightly later timing.  The ability to consistently control the ball will allow you to watch your opponent and read the play while doing the stroke.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/19/2016 at 2:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlowMover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/21/2016 at 12:38am
I've taken note of the elbow position and relaxation.

I did a couple rounds yesterday at slow speed which enabled me to be more relaxed and clear the net by a greater margin.  I did an additional round against backspin and used a more relaxed arm swing there than usual as well which seemed to work out nicely, though I need a lot more repetitions to consistently swing relaxed versus various spins and speeds in a way that translates to matches.

I appreciate that you all have not just given me advice, but also the reasons and principles behind it.  This increases my confidence that I'm doing the right thing and motivates me to put it into practice, literally, practice Smile  Once again, I feel like applying these principles is finally going to unblock me from this level that I've been stuck at.

I'll keep you all posted with any significant progress or hangups that will inevitably come up.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlowMover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2016 at 12:30am
Hey everyone, happy Friday.  

Here are a couple of videos from recent practice sessions at a more relaxed speed.

Alternating BH and FH vs topspin: http://youtu.be/-0XMGKN4NPk

In that video, it's clear looking back that I'm able to more consistently brush the ball better on the FH and create a higher arc with more spin than on BH.


FH topspin vs incoming backspin: http://youtu.be/3_IZH2i7eEI

After 5 minutes I shut it down because my quads were burning Smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2016 at 1:11am
Originally posted by SlowMover SlowMover wrote:

Hey everyone, happy Friday.  

Here are a couple of videos from recent practice sessions at a more relaxed speed.

Alternating BH and FH vs topspin: http://youtu.be/-0XMGKN4NPk

In that video, it's clear looking back that I'm able to more consistently brush the ball better on the FH and create a higher arc with more spin than on BH.


FH topspin vs incoming backspin: http://youtu.be/3_IZH2i7eEI

After 5 minutes I shut it down because my quads were burning Smile



Higher arc is not always good.  Both strokes look good to me for where you are in the process.  You can change arc by experimenting with swing trajectory and contact point.

Use the contact point I showed you for looping to loop bacskspin - this loop is too poor unless the backspin is really heavy.  Mimic the form of the guy in this video at the beginning - it is the same as your topspin stroke but with a different contact point.



Edited by NextLevel - 03/04/2016 at 1:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ri0t1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2016 at 9:20am
A lot of great feed back already so I'll keep my own observations short and sweet.

Number one: I feel until you are more consistent I wouldn't take such large strokes. I would focus on shortening up your stroke (not much) and keeping your elbow in when you hit, elbow should almost touch the side of your torso.  This minimizes on missing the ball or miss-hitting the ball.


Number two: as mentioned in other critiques, bring your right foot back a bit so that your left foot is just a bit ahead of your right foot.  Remember to get back into that athletic position after you hit the ball. I feel that you are a bit lazy with getting back into the position after each shot, half of it is because you're using a robot and you know where the ball is going to be so you have it timed, but over time this creates poor habits for when you get into an actual match

Best of luck, you're on your way to breaking 1000 if you keep it up good sir!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlowMover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2016 at 6:32pm
Thanks guys.

Ri0t, good call on getting back to ready position.  I didn't notice that even though it's obvious looking back.

NL, I'm sorry, I just want to clarify on "contact point".  I feel it can mean different things.

1) where on the ball the bat makes contact: top, back, or bottom of the ball
or 
2) where in the arc trajectory of the incoming ball relative to top of bounce that contact happens
top of bounce, after top of bounce, etc.  You also refer to this as later timing.

Correct me if I'm wrong: in this case, it seems like #2 and my understanding is that at my current skill level, I should make contact after the top of bounce when looping both topspin and backspin to emphasize spin and safety and give myself time to relax, move, and learn to read the game / anticipate the opponent.  

Connecting later, slows down my shot by favoring a higher spin/speed ratio which gives me more time which relieves mental pressure and physical tension which gives me a chance to use proper strokes more often and pay attention to what the opponent is doing.  Things that I have not been able to do well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2016 at 8:37pm
Not speaking for NL but where you contact the ball along it's trajectory is very important. 

To get a good feel for spinning the ball after top of bounce is where you want to be. The more the ball drops the more vertical your swing needs to be and the closer it is to top of bounce the more horizontal. The first case would be what is commonly called a slow loop or a loop that emphasizes spin over speed. 
 
Example- see how long he waits for the ball to drop before making contact and the swing goes from low to high at a fairly steep angle. Table height is a good reference for how long to wait depending on the ball that is coming to you. Take note of the height over the net and their is more spin than speed. 




The opposite end of the spectrum is contacting the ball just after top of bounce or at top of bounce and this would be a loop drive. When you look at the slow mo replays you can see contact point is at or just after top of bounce.  





Somewhere in that range you will find comfortable shot for you. Once you find your pocket groove the hell out of it. I would not worry to much about how high it is as much as the quality of the spin. 




Edited by V-Griper - 03/04/2016 at 8:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2016 at 9:59pm
If I use a robot I try and think of as a partner than I can beat so ill speed it up aim in different places and try not to get too mechanical as this isn't real life
so don't try and hit all balls identical ,maybe 4 nice loops then move a bit sideways and do a couple down the line and then back again


Edited by smackman - 03/04/2016 at 10:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2016 at 10:48pm
I think your loop did not follow through. You kind of stopped your forehand motion when contacting the ball. Also I feel you turn you back and waist too early. So basically, you turn your back and shoulder a lot, but you use very little of that power when contacting the ball.

My understanding is that you turn your back when you are about to contact the ball. That is how the power transfer from your turning the back to the shoulder and the arm.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2016 at 7:08am
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

I think your loop did not follow through. You kind of stopped your forehand motion when contacting the ball. Also I feel you turn you back and waist too early. So basically, you turn your back and shoulder a lot, but you use very little of that power when contacting the ball.

My understanding is that you turn your back when you are about to contact the ball. That is how the power transfer from your turning the back to the shoulder and the arm.




Yes his timing is relatively poor and it is in part because he is trying to incorporate movement. I gave him a pass on it because the movement and the idea is largely correct even if the timing is wrong and he loses whip on the forehand. I believe it will improve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlowMover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2016 at 12:00am
Thanks for the tips everyone.  I don't have a topspin vs backspin video yet, but I tried another side to side with forehands only this time.

I know the timing is off sometimes like when I rotate back to early and then have to wait for the ball on occasion, but I hope it is good sometimes.  It generally felt good and looking back it almost seems athletic, like I am watching someone who knows how to play this sport, although I'm sure those of you who have been coaching me can see otherwise Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2016 at 12:09am
Originally posted by SlowMover SlowMover wrote:

Thanks for the tips everyone.  I don't have a topspin vs backspin video yet, but I tried another side to side with forehands only this time.

I know the timing is off sometimes like when I rotate back to early and then have to wait for the ball on occasion, but I hope it is good sometimes.  It generally felt good and looking back it almost seems athletic, like I am watching someone who knows how to play this sport, although I'm sure those of you who have been coaching me can see otherwise Smile


The good news is that you are relaxed and that always counts for a lot.  The bad news is that you lost some of the core ingredients in that video.  You lost your forward lean, you lost your timing of the backswing in the early part of the video before fixing it (when moving, you need to do your backswing while moving to the ball, as opposed to getting there before starting it - otherwise, you will always be late in real match play) and you currently don't stay at the same height throughout the strokes and movements.  In general, I tend to tell people to avoid doing anything that requires movement until the strokes are fully drilled in to an unconscious level.  The alternate approach is to practice footwork drills in isolation away from the table for a while before coming to play so that you have the movements even before you try to apply them at the table. 

That said, the bottom line is not to be in a rush to practice moving with your strokes.  Transitions without moving can be very challenging as they test your elbow position and your ability to play backhands and forehands fluidly.  That would be the next step before going to a drill with movement. I get the boredom and the rush and ignore this if you are in it for fun.  But trust me, getting the strokes right is more important than moving properly. At least, that is my experience.  


Edited by NextLevel - 03/08/2016 at 12:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2016 at 3:18am
Judging from the video above, I think you should improve most on core explosiveness. You're turning your waist too slowly and you should try not to jump upwards each time you make your forehand shot :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2016 at 11:04am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


That said, the bottom line is not to be in a rush to practice moving with your strokes.  Transitions without moving can be very challenging as they test your elbow position and your ability to play backhands and forehands fluidly.  That would be the next step before going to a drill with movement. I get the boredom and the rush and ignore this if you are in it for fun.  But trust me, getting the strokes right is more important than moving properly. At least, that is my experience.  

OP,

This is very good information and it's something I wish I would have known when I first started playing.  

 Focus on your transition!  Once you've mastered your FH/BH transition, the ability to switch between looping incoming backspin and incoming topspin (on both wings), the ability to loop versus  varying levels of topspin/backspin, and the ability to make very small in and out adjustments based on the depth of the incoming ball, then you could move on to side-to-side footwork. 

As far as your stroke, it looks pretty good to me.  Try to keep your forward lean and knee bend.






Edited by Ringer84 - 03/08/2016 at 11:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlowMover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2016 at 11:36am
Got it NL and Ringer.  I’ll go back to stationary forehands.  After that, backhand / forehand drills where I don’t really have to move laterally.

MLFan, thanks.  Both you and NL pointed out the vertical bouncing, so I’ll be aware to avoid that.   The core explosiveness will come (see my original video).  I know it is important, but I need to lay the groundwork. 

The forward lean has always been lacking to some degree in my FH.  Blahness commented on that in my original video.  It seems more natural to lean forward when doing  backhands vs any spin or forehands vs underspin.  But for some reason, not so much on forehands vs topspin.  I’ll work on this and get more weight on the front of my feet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2016 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by SlowMover SlowMover wrote:

Got it NL and Ringer.  I’ll go back to stationary forehands.  After that, backhand / forehand drills where I don’t really have to move laterally.

MLFan, thanks.  Both you and NL pointed out the vertical bouncing, so I’ll be aware to avoid that.   The core explosiveness will come (see my original video).  I know it is important, but I need to lay the groundwork. 

The forward lean has always been lacking to some degree in my FH.  Blahness commented on that in my original video.  It seems more natural to lean forward when doing  backhands vs any spin or forehands vs underspin.  But for some reason, not so much on forehands vs topspin.  I’ll work on this and get more weight on the front of my feet.


Try to also keep your forearm snap consistent as well - it's almost invisible in the video.  You don't always need a lot but you need some.  Your elbow needs to straighten even if a little on the back swing and bend back to an angle on the forward swing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahsq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2016 at 5:59pm
the guy doing fh in the videos is terrible. This is exactly how NOT to do fh. 

a few errors

1. way too large loop on close to table fh
2. random strokes/random ball landing/random net landing
3. awkward body motion/wrist motion
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