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Backhand and the wrist

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chronos View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01/07/2008 at 11:32pm
I've been training backhand blocks, drives, and loops against topspin and underspin.

Following a tip on this forum, I started using my wrist not only to impart spin (moving along the plane of the already moving forearm) but to slap forward (like a backhand slap, if you were to hit someone across the face - not that I am advocating any sort of violence).  This motion I understand is correct for the backhand block, but I'm curious if its normal form for driving and looping?

When looping against underspin especially, I cock the wrist back and down, keeping the backhand face parallel to the surface of the floor, then snap upwards and elevate with the knees (keeping my back straight, I had a bad habit of straightening up with the back as well)  - with this initial position of the blade, it is inevidable that the wrist acts in both axies - I keep it as loose as I can, the twisting of the waist and snap of the forearm whips the hand in this way.

When driving, I've been cocking the wrist the same way and smacking the ball with the tip of the blade while driving over it to impart topspin.

Does this sound correct?  Any other tips?  What about hand positioning for a loop setup against topspin?  In that case, I close the face but keep it higher and more at a 45 degree angle closed below the waist, not between the knees as with underspin.

Had fantastic tips here in the past, any help is greatly appreciated.
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yogi_bear View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/08/2008 at 1:15am
try looking for jorgen persson's videos. it has good bh tips.. and yes wrist motion is important in having a good bh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/08/2008 at 4:12am
i too use the wrist flick or swat kill for short high ball and punching, it works wonders
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YATTP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/08/2008 at 10:55am
I'm sorry, but I don't understand your question properly. Maybe you can reformulate your question and add more detail.

Wrist on the bh serves 2 purposes:
1. The wrist adds extra spin (the rest comes from underarm snap and from the legs if this is necessary e.g. if you need extra power or spin)
2. The wrist determines the placement.

As you can see, you need 2 different axis of the wrist for this - one for spin, one for direction.
On the one hand this is one of the strength of the bh as it makes it very difficult to tell spin and placement early. On the other hand, this leads to substantial timing problems and this is the reason why bh topspin is very problematic for both the attacker and the defender. Minimal positional errors or minimal misjudgements of the incoming ball flight path can lead to "simple" errors.

There are two schools in bh training:
old school: Don't use the wrist for spin until your strokes are very *very* well grooved (takes 2 years minimum). The underarm snap provides more than enough spin and speed - and you can always use your legs if you need maximum spin. The wrist is only used in the upward-downward axis (if the inner side of the hand is placed on a table) for ball placement and the left-right axis for spin is slowly introduced only when the bh is already perfect. In this school the spin axis of the wrist is not regarded as an integral part of the stroke production, but as an extra for spin.
ADVANTAGE: very solid bh

The new school regards the 2 axis wrist movement basically as an integral part of the bh topspin. The movement is usually likened to the throw of a frisbee. Students are given real frisbees or old used rubbers to throw around for several hours in order to practice the movement in its entirety before the stroke is actually practiced at the table.
ADVANTAGE: very spinny and very dangerous bh, but not nearly as solid and reliable as old school backhands.
In official coaching programs in Germany the old school is not taught anymore - only the new bh school, because the game gets more and more offensive and the new school has much more to offer in this respect. However, official coaching programs don't care about Joe Average. They are clearly intended for world class player production - not for hobby players. Hobby players will do better with old school bh in my opinion, but views differ very much in this respect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chronos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2008 at 12:08am
Fantastic response YATTP, thank you.  And yogi thanks for reminding me about the persson video, great call.

YATTP, the element I am curious about is the use of the wrist in the upward-downward axis , that is new for me!  I find it improves placement and definately adds punch on drives - is it bad to use this for power?  Before I was keeping the wrist loose in the left-right axis (on both forehand and backhand loops), that has always been my way.

This is sound advice about hobby play vs. developing a world class game, I appreciate these comments.  Thanks for the guidance!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imzadim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2008 at 9:18am
That's great advice!

I've been dealing with the same dilemma. My old instructor tough me the "old school" method and the new teacher I have now is trying to focus on the wrist for spin and direction.
The wrist snap has definitely a lot more of spin, but I do feel it makes the bh less consistent.

Something else I noticed is that by getting used to relay more on the wrist I get to respond faster to some shots that would take a little bit more time with my old bh. Maybe it's just me, but the wrist snap seems to be so short and fast that helps you when you are out of position.

The reason I decided to get used to this new shot is because it makes receiving of short underpin serves a bit easier since you don't have to think as much about the quick wrist movement. It's basicly embedded it in this stroke, so it's easier to loop short serves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chronos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/30/2008 at 10:54pm
Lots of new details in technique have been coming out thanks to these posts, thank you guys.  I actually seem to have learned in the reverse order, as I have always cocked the wrist along the left right axis and kept it loose, using the forearm to hit through the ball, and the loose wrist to brush over the top to add spin.

By left right axis I mean, if you press your palm down into the table, and slide it back and forth by cocking the wrist - this is the motion I use.  lifting it off the table I am considering the up-down axis - this seems to preserve the conventions of the above posts.

I never considered using this up-down axis consciously - I would say my motion is entirely along this left-right axis.  So I was surprised when I was studying block and drive footage and saw this - in particular wang liquin clearly cocks back his wrist in the up-down axis, positioned by the waist when hitting backhands.

Here are two videos, I wonder if what I am seeing illustrates both these axes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3AIEWeeE4o (timo boll)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvECHF60cu8&NR=1

I'm wondering if these do illustrate the concept.  Timo appears to be cocking the wrist left and down, finishing right and up in this terminology.  The down to up motion drives through the ball giving more speed, or ?

In the second video I feel the motion is most visible in the sideways view at 2 minutes.  Here the wrist is very loose and the down up motion drives through the ball.

Picturing myself, I feel like I am always throwing a frisbee directly over the ball just grazing it - it is the forearm that controls the moment of contact with the ball.  Considering this motion I'm now imagining the backhand as:

1) cock wrist, backhand face facing ball
2) use forearm to accellerate hand / blade
3) in close proximity, the wrist facilitates actual ball contact, snapping through (up down) and over (left right) the ball
4) forehand face ends up open to ceiling

All comments are greatly appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unisonus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/30/2008 at 11:05pm
IMO, wrist snap is only essential when attacking balls in places or from positions where whole-arm strokes are difficult to execute (e.g. flips) - or to vary placement. All other balls can be attacked effectively and consistently using the legs and the arm. Besides, the fewer points of movement - the less likely you are to make an error or misplace a ball. One you have mastered the backhand, you can begin to add wrist. But, IMO, the increase in spin and power does not pay for the loss of consistency - especially if your toughest opponent is the average tournament player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/31/2008 at 4:49pm
The up-down axis movement should be increased proportionally with the use of forearm twist, to keep the stroke fairly straight. Imagine you have a plank of wood attached to your thigh pointing slightly upwards at a 30 - 45 degree angle, depending on your rubber. Your bat face should be parallel and travelling along it. The point of using more forearm and wrist is to elongate the stroke and use more muscle groups for power and consistency.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ffx-me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/31/2008 at 8:13pm
when i use bh I prety much only more forward and flick my ridt, gives awesome drives
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2winged Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2008 at 4:58pm
Glad this subject came up since I have varied my shakehands grip over the years and still haven't settled on one particular way of holding the blade.  How you rotate the blade in the hand when in the ready position indicates which wing you favor. 
In my experience, when I "choke" up on the blade with the index finger nearly curled around the racquet edge, I slap my shots especially on the BH ( a la Persson ).   It makes for powerful drives but inconsistent ones.  When I rotate the blade to favor my BH in a semi-western tennis grip I don't use any slapping motion but more of the up-down motion. 

Still don't know which way is best and it doesn't help to see Timo Boll actually adjusting his grip between his BH and FH.  On his FH his finger is on the rubber but on the BH he brings his finger down and rotates the blade slightly unless he is caught out of position.

I definitely want more insight on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2008 at 7:26pm
i think one of your statements there also pertains to the backhand punch block.. bh punchblock uses wrist action and try to hit the ball with the upper 1/3 of your blade and hit it on the rise if you want more speed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chronos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2008 at 11:21pm
Yeah, I find this question quite fascinating as of late, a subtle but powerful change in technique.

I've integrated this into my backhand loops against underspin, trying to loosely emulate the sequence shown on this page:

http://www.masatenisi.org/english/bhtspin.htm

In that sequence, the wrist cocks down and back simultaneously with forward / upward forearm movement!  So the forward impetus of the arm has an effect of cocking the wrist back into position.  That wrist cocking, I wonder, is it simply due to relaxing the wrist, or does one simultaneously apply backward impetus with the wrist to really "cock" it into place when beginning the stroke?  I am experimenting with both.  I don't feel that my wrist really cocks back so dramatically due to relaxed wrist alone, have to explicitly do it, and getting the elastic kick out of that energy means it should be done just as the stroke is starting to execute (that is, don't statically cock the wrist and wait, you won't get the elastic release of energy the muscles and tendons are capable of).

Another tip I've seen regarding backhand loops - aim the elbow at the ball.  That felt quite awkward, turn the shoulders to get that elbow facing out, stick the elbow out more directly?  nothing felt natural.  But I've realized one clear way to achieve this, and the context is none other than wrist movement:

lets say you're ready to execute backhand loop against underspin.  you put the blade down between your thighs, parallel with the floor, backhand face pointing down at the floor, "top" of the bat pointing off to the left (for right hander).  To aim the elbow, TWIST your forearm counter clockwise, now the top of the bat is pointing behind you, away from the ball.  Aim that elbow at the ball (or maybe, where you want it to go?), snap, and hopefully you kept it on the table.

It's still a work in progress for me, and of course all this is done empirically without use of a coach, so take it all with a grain of salt.  You can definately get more consistency out of a simpler stroke with fewer degrees of freedom - maybe try integrating this into loop against underspin first since there you have more time for setup and execution!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chronos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2008 at 11:33pm
Yes!  Punch block illustrates the "purest" case of the slapping motion possible in backhand strokes, as opposed to right-left movement to induce spin!  Definately this new degree of freedom creates a potential for greater speed and placement.

For the curious, there is a nice presentation of the "backhand punch" here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFWTcrQvWr8&feature=related

Also, here is a nice illustration of what I awkwardly explain above.  Samsonov cocks the wrist in both aspects for topspin and underspin loops.  Here it would appear the initial winding up of the stroke, getting the arm into position, has the last effect of cocking the wrist before the forward impetus is applied (just like a WHIP ;))  That is different from what I say above, and might be preferrable!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn10X3T2Lug&feature=related
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2008 at 11:38pm
Hi Chronos,
     You are right on the $$$.
     Useing the wrist does give room for more errors but it also takes the stroke up a notch.
     To counter backspin, you need "blade speed" and the wrist adds alot. More room for error but that is what practice is for. I don't force my wrist back, just relax it. It seems to know when to do it's thing without thinking about it.Smile
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