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What else is needed to beat the Chinese? |
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yassermuslim
Beginner Joined: 07/23/2006 Status: Offline Points: 82 |
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Posted: 05/12/2009 at 11:37am |
While watching this video, I was wondering what else is needed to beat Chinese. Is it skill, speed, tactics, fitness, power, concentration? I believe it's all there. However these two players are far in the ranking and always underdogs.
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TBS9x
Gold Member Joined: 10/24/2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 1143 |
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Just to notice, I think there's a problem when you upload your video because at least I can't see anything right now . Well, beating is chinese is really hard as you all can see but from years to years, Schlager, Waldner, Timo Boll has proven that nothing is impossible.You understand me right ? Like many people are saying, chinese is much more professional in training table tennis than europeans.They have their own method, for an example : I heard that there are many '' Waldners '' and '' Samsonov '' in China.Some players have job to follow these guys as I said above and copy their game style, from a->z so the chinese players can train and make the real match easier.That's a good method but not any country can do like that, chinese has a really great source of men, they can have enough good table tennis player whenever they want.And one of the most important thing is : table tennis is the number 1 sport in CHina, I believe that's true.Besides, they are not weaker than europeans, they are really smart ( I have to admit that ! ), they have potential and tradition, that's why they are dominating the world of tt.What else is needed to beat the Chinese ? All the best european players have to unite together and discuss tactics, experience together and find a solution.One country can't do this.Even timo boll, the european no.1 can't win the chinese so many times, let's see what's gonna happen in the future
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ibupro
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"...I was wondering what else is needed to beat Chinese. Is it skill, speed, tactics, fitness, power, concentration?"
Skill. These players are nowhere near as skilled as the Chinese in serve, return, and short game. |
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ThaiLe
Platinum Member Joined: 04/18/2008 Location: Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 2186 |
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What else is needed to beat the Chinese?
Luck and lots of them and still might not be enough... |
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PingPongPulse
Beginner Joined: 04/22/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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very nice explanantion TBS +1 |
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tdragon
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Just recruit Chinese to compete with Chinese. Oh well! it is chinese game.
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ThaiLe
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It does not work anymore. I forgot where I read or heard but Chinese players have to wait 7yrs (after having another citizenship) in order to compete for that country. Some1 please correct me if I am wrong. |
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liXiao
Premier Member Joined: 11/27/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6145 |
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Well Kenta was really close. One thing that I dont like people saying is how people like Kaii Yoshida are chinese and they are just playing for Japan. When in fact China didnt do sh*t for him. He won all of his Domestic and International titles when he lived in Japan. Just throwing that out there.
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ZingyDNA
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I'm pretty sure they don't have the skill and tactics of the Chinese. I know this is highlights, but the fact so many points go to long rallies indicates their lack of short games kills. |
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Leshxa
Gold Member Joined: 01/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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This video emphasizes even more how TT is a 3 dimensional sport. These guys on the other hand, are only using 1 dimension. They start the point with a push or a roll, then go head to head against each other's strokes. The more consistent person wins....
From where I am sitting, this is simply not enough to swing and hope to beat chinese. You need strategy, tactics, you need great placement! These guys loop to each other, not away from each other, look, they don't even move from side to side!!! Short game is very important. These 2 just like to keep the ball long. One thing I've learned is that any level above 1200-1400 has strokes. In warmup it even looks like some of those strokes are better than mine, but then you wonder why they never get higher up in ratings - consistency, lack of tacktics, one winged, overanticipating, too many unforced errors, lack of experience against various styles, etc.... This sport has too many things one needs to master in order to become a master good enough for top world players. Takes years to master all these skills and unforutnately for us in US, we simply don't have the luxury of time to learn these skills. We also lack experienced players with these skills to show us how some things are done. I think its very similar in other countries that these guys represent. |
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Back to table tennis...
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yassermuslim
Beginner Joined: 07/23/2006 Status: Offline Points: 82 |
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short game skills
Most probably you're right. It takes a lot of time, dedication and boring exercises to develop short game skills. I guess european coaches want to entertain audience more than winning. However a good tactical player can drag the Chinese into his strength - open rallies. On the other hand it might be a good idea to change the service rule so that the receiving area is the last quarter of the table. What do you think? |
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jpingchow123
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No. |
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DeathAngel
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The short game is probably one of the most important part of the game at any level. It dictates an easy shot pooped up from a bad chop or a missed loop from a low short chop. I dont think enough players practice the short game even at a high level, well at least not to the extent of the chinese.
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Dagoboz
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How does anybody beat anybody. Anybody 1 must play better and score more points than anybody 2.
How do you beat the Chinese? You mean how does one nation become genuinely competetive with the Chinese? The answer is not found in short games, serves, forehands, back hands and so on. That is looking at the problem incorrectly. The answer as to how you beat the Chinese is simple. You have a better national infastructure for the sport than the Chinese. Of course the implementation of that would be brutally hard.
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ibupro
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How would you go about creating a better system than the Chinese have? Start the kids at 2 yrs old rather than 4-6? Genetic manipulation? The Curious Case of Benjamin Button? |
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Recanter
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How to beat the Chinese? You gotta understand that Table Tennis has a different meaning in China, than in the rest of the world.
If you can convince the Government to fund and take Table Tennis as seriously as the Chinese... then you'll be able to "cultivate" talent! |
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yassermuslim
Beginner Joined: 07/23/2006 Status: Offline Points: 82 |
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I guess you are right, on the national level you need depth, commitment, infrastructure, ... etc. However my question was about individuals. Re, |
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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Lixiao while I don't disagree with your argument, I have to counter it.
first, kenta being very close to ma lin was a very impressive sight. I dont know exactly how old he is, but he did well. But when you watch that match, you still see in every aspect who the better player is. Everyone has come close to beating everyone.. but the thing is that that doesn't mean much. But in this case, you have more of a point because kenta is so young. My argument is much stronger when someone is supporting a seasoned pro versus a seasoned pro. I dont know where Mizutani was at kenta's age, so for me its a "we'll have to wait and find out" moment. I heard someone say that the japanese kind of round off after 16.. but i have no validity to provide for that comment.
I do have a good opinion on your comment about Yoshida Kaii. I firstly have to say that watching the kaii hao match, kaii impressed me with his fighting spirit very much.. and every time i watched him make amazing shot after amazing shot.. my jaw dropped. But the thing is, wang hao always had a better shot to answer with. There are times in that match where i thought kaii was unstoppable with a shot, and then wang hao would expertly put it back in a way that seemed even more impossible. The thing about what you said is that, while the chinese never did anything for him and he had to make a name for himself in japan.. the reasoning is very strong. Yoshida Kaii didn't get anything out of china simply because he just isn't good enough. He isn't, nor has he ever been, up to a chinese national team level of play. I'm sure there are plenty of players in china that are the same level of play as yoshida kaii that we will never hear of. But that is because China has a much higher standard of playing skill than anywhere else in the world. Their nobodies can be any other countries top player or hero. The difference is that Yoshida decided to go do that for himself anyway, and as a result became a top pro because of experience he gained and the dedication he had. But realistically, like i have already said, the chinese probably have a line of players that are equal in skill as yoshida kaii is. The thing is that none of them are internationally ranked. Idk what rank he is.. lets say 30 as an example. Yoshida Kaii is WR 30, but I would put money on the fact that he is not close to the 30 best players in the world. There are many unranked players around, mostly in china im sure, that could probably sway the top 100 WR list.. and maybe you might find an all chinese top 10 after these nobodies can get exposure.
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729 FX
Silver Member Joined: 03/16/2009 Location: Malaysia Status: Offline Points: 619 |
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Well, how to beat the Chinese in a game played by nearly 90% of its citizen? The nation need to cultivate its citizen to start at a very young age 3-4 years old and all its citizen may be required to play table tennis.
In that sense the nation can compete with China.
Over the years, Schlager, Waldner and Boll has proven that nothing is impossible to break the Chinese great wall of table tennis. The Chinese is much more professional in training table tennis than any other countries in the world. China has a really great resources of human capital which provide them enough good table tennis player whenever they want.
What else is needed to beat the Chinese ? All the best European and other part of the world players have to unite together and discuss tactics, experience together and find a solution. One country/nation can't do that.
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wealthweb
Super Member Joined: 03/11/2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 291 |
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To beat the Chinese is not easy at all. A guy from China told me that during training he was asked by his coach to practice the same serve several hundred times within the same period of time before he is permitted to do new tricks. Are we ready for that kind of drill and discipline? The Chinese coaches are not satisfied in just breeding good players; they want to create terminators and bull-dozers which will eliminate anything that stands on their way. European style is straight forward and forceful. Chinese style is LING HOW (meaning FLEXIBLE TRICKY). European players focuses on strength. Chinese players focuses on Ying Yang Balance.
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Eric Yu
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scottymang
Super Member Joined: 09/14/2006 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 169 |
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I know that the Chinese are the best but it's an English game!
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Timo Boll ALC + 2x Rakza7 max = Scottymang
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sebas-aguirre
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I think the fact that kenta plays close to the table with good placement and really pushing his opponent to failure has something to do.
his serves made the job difficult to ma lin too.... I think if you try to overpower ma lin or other chinese you are going the wrong path. I think that with the infrastructure the chinese have it will be hard to beat them. they are more professional. and they have far many more players than other countries, and from quantity comes quality. but life always shows us there are no rules or absolute paths, so a new waldner could be born anytime and kick all the ma's and wang's asses |
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mwyatt
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100% correct. |
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shaks
Super Member Joined: 09/20/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
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On a different perspective. I think it is much more than just training. What you need is a different spiritual upbringing and also eating less red meat. That way your minds will be clear and bones will be flexible and your strokes smooth and graceful like the chinese and also the japanese. See how humble and composed Ma long is while playing. It's not all aggression and focus. Most westerners play the game so stiff and that makes it hard to transition from touch to power and vice versa. Of course some like schalger and waldner were graceful in their youth.
good luck beating the asians. |
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~shaks
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tatan
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well those Waldners and Samsonovs do not have the brain like originals so I don't think they make much of a difference. IMHO the European players are less innovative in choosing and executing there shots.the touch shots are gone after Waldner leave the game.now they are either blocking or blasting.there is no balance.if Kreanga had a better defense he would have won many more matches and may be some against chinese too. also modern European players don't have kill strokes like chinese.Waldii,Rossi,Persson,Gatien all had killing strokes which made them so competitive against chinese. I still get amaized with the on the table backhand kill of A.Grubba.wow. my point is if you go with normal strokes from the books and try to do lot of rallies the chinese are by far supirior by virtue of there hard and quality practise.you need to have manipulative(using brain and sudden strokes occationally raher than always going with conventional strokes) power and strokes which will end a rally. I have seen Walner,Person,Rossi,Gatien,Grubba,Saive finished a rally smashing on a topspin from there opponent,none of the modern player have the skil.ok you cant smash every ball but some of them can be smashed,which will create mental disbalance for the chinese players. |
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yassermuslim
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Please have a look at this, specially at 0:34 the ceiling camera. See how Wang is close to the table compared to Schlagar and the way Wang transfers his weight while hitting the ball, that makes his stroke more powerful. |
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77g33k
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Wang is closer to the table since he hits the ball at the top(tacky rubber)while Schlaeger takes the ball when it is going down...
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Messing opponents with their own spins.
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yassermuslim
Beginner Joined: 07/23/2006 Status: Offline Points: 82 |
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You're right, that seems to be a major difference between Chinese and European technique. |
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Salamandr
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you see that tactics and wide variety of surprising shots are the way how to beat Chinese, because they are super-drilled and better at most of standard patterns of the game. Common topspin clones like Boll will not have sucess. Boll improved his blocking game and uses head more, thats why he is much better now and can beat the Chinese. Kenta shows also unusual style and surprising blocking that is not standard return that Chinese expect. Waldner was the master at this varying. Schlager had also tactics and finishing power at 2003.
So I think the most important things are: - variable play as much as possible - good shortgame to prevent to many over-the-table kills - well placed blocking like Oh Sang Eun, Kenta, Waldner - ability to play fast kill shots like Schlager does to put pressure ( Mizu, Maze are lost here ) There should be "anti-chinese" camps and these things could be taught here to players from their youth, otherwise there is no chance, maybe Kenta will be first "star" when he improves his attack... |
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nicefrog
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Wang liqin has a highly unusual stroke :) I tried to copy it the other day didn't work for me :S. How tall is he? hes seems to be a giant
In the first video the guy in the blue could have won nearly every point with a forehand down the line while the other guy was way over on the backhand hitting forehands but he just keeps hitting it back to him, whyyy |
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