Pushblocker vs. Cho Yoon Je (KOR)

Pushblocker wrote: jt99sf wrote: Pushblocker I've seen Peter Chen play in 2001 at the Nationals but I've never played him.  He was and still is an inspiration for me. He got past 2300 rating in his 60's and now in his 70's he is still playing mid 2100 level. I hope to run into him again.. Hopefully this coming year. I think that in a head to head matchup, I would have a advantage as I usually beat most defensive long pips blockers while I do have problem against offensive ones..  I also did play George about 2 years ago at the NA Teams and I was able to beat him.. Long pips blockers don't seem to be George's specialty... Back in 2008 when I played him, George was still in the mid 2100's.. Later, he dropped and only plays around 2000 level right now.   I don't think Peter plays the Nationals anymore, he does play regularly at Potrero Hill Center in San Francisco. He is starting to add the attack to his game. Let me know if you're ever in the area.   I'm thinking about coming to the Western Open in Berkeley but I'm not sure yet. Have to decide in February.. I was thinking in coming to California in Spring or Summer for one of the 4* tournaments there.  Nothing is 100% yet..  [/QUOTE wrote: You should play in one of ICC's big tournaments.  There are always so many underrated kids trying to beat you it's not even funny... Robert S. (2323) just lost to a ten-year old kid there who also beat Avishy and Trung Tu (2412).

You should play in one of ICC's big tournaments.  There are always so many underrated kids trying to beat you it's not even funny... Robert S. (2323) just lost to a ten-year old kid there who also beat Avishy and Trung Tu (2412).

roundrobin wrote: You should play in one of ICC's big tournaments.  There are always so many underrated kids trying to beat you it's not even funny... Robert S. (2323) just lost to a ten-year old kid there who also beat Avishy and Trung Tu (2412).

I think I'm half in agree and half in disagree. I agree that using and getting used to the "junk" rubbers is a quick way to get to maybe a 1700-1800 level, where loopers at that level are not so good. But when you surpass the 2000 level, then the opposite is true- or what you are saying. The thing is, there are so many inverted players below 2000 that just aren't good enough at their own craft that playing against those different styles is too difficult. But Like oliver has said so many times- the number of people that play similar to him around his rating is very few and that's because people like you and oliver are actually skilled and knowlegeable at what they are doing with that kind of equipment, and have actual games other than just throwing people off. There are undeniably people below 2000 who basically have those rubbers as a crutch or just as a do it for me kind of rubber. They don't REALLY know what they are doing, but can do a few things basically and that's enough to throw off loopers or attackers at their level and get themselves the mid ratings like 1600-1800

beeray1 wrote: I think I'm half in agree and half in disagree. I agree that using and getting used to the "junk" rubbers is a quick way to get to maybe a 1700-1800 level, where loopers at that level are not so good. But when you surpass the 2000 level, then the opposite is true- or what you are saying. The thing is, there are so many inverted players below 2000 that just aren't good enough at their own craft that playing against those different styles is too difficult. But Like oliver has said so many times- the number of people that play similar to him around his rating is very few and that's because people like you and oliver are actually skilled and knowlegeable at what they are doing with that kind of equipment, and have actual games other than just throwing people off. There are undeniably people below 2000 who basically have those rubbers as a crutch or just as a do it for me kind of rubber. They don't REALLY know what they are doing, but can do a few things basically and that's enough to throw off loopers or attackers at their level and get themselves the mid ratings like 1600-1800

Edited by roundrobin - 12/06/2010 at 5:17pm

Pushblocker wrote: roundrobin wrote: You should play in one of ICC's big tournaments.  There are always so many underrated kids trying to beat you it's not even funny... Robert S. (2323) just lost to a ten-year old kid there who also beat Avishy and Trung Tu (2412).   Well, we both fell victim to Ellen Hwang recently.. I know all about those underrated teen players...

Speaking of upsets... Our local player Konstantin Chernomorskiy (2181) beat DJ Alto (2573) at LATTA Open yesterday.

IMO, the uniqueness of the equipment and/or style gives a significant advantage to the players who use them skillfully, which is the reason why many long pips or anitspin players avoid using their "secret weapons" in the pre-match warm ups.

Since most players almost exclusively train with, and play against, inverted offensive minded players with "conventional" styles and stroke mechanics, when they face a significantly different rubber surface and/or style, they just don't know what to do, or even if they do know the appropriate tactics, they may have problems with timing, reading spin or with anticipating the direction, trajectory and bounce of the ball coming at them ... all of which comes with experience.

From my personal experience, the more I play against a particular player with an unorthodox style or equipment, or even unusual serves, the better I do against him, at least initially, until I get used to his game.   By getting getting exposed to his unique game,  I have much more to gain than him, since he's plays guys like me all the time ... so I get better against him, even though neither my nor his level of play against everyone else changes.  After a while, when we get used our styles, our level of play against each other stabilizes.

I've also noticed, that players who use strange equipment frequently have problems against other people with unusual gear/styles ... until they learn how to play against them.

In summary, I do believe that using unconventional gear requires skills and provides welcome variety to TT.  However, I also believe, that if there were more players with unorthodox styles and gear, it would become more difficult for them to use it to their advantage against their "inverted victims".

roundrobin wrote: beeray1 wrote: I think I'm half in agree and half in disagree. I agree that using and getting used to the "junk" rubbers is a quick way to get to maybe a 1700-1800 level, where loopers at that level are not so good. But when you surpass the 2000 level, then the opposite is true- or what you are saying. The thing is, there are so many inverted players below 2000 that just aren't good enough at their own craft that playing against those different styles is too difficult. But Like oliver has said so many times- the number of people that play similar to him around his rating is very few and that's because people like you and oliver are actually skilled and knowlegeable at what they are doing with that kind of equipment, and have actual games other than just throwing people off. There are undeniably people below 2000 who basically have those rubbers as a crutch or just as a do it for me kind of rubber. They don't REALLY know what they are doing, but can do a few things basically and that's enough to throw off loopers or attackers at their level and get themselves the mid ratings like 1600-1800 I remember when I went to school with Werner Schlager.. He gave me some spinny rubbers and almost instantly I went from losing to all the other basement players to beating all of them because they couldn't return my serves... I agree with you to some extent... But based on my own experiences and observations at various clubs where I happened to be one of the sponsors, I also happen to think double inverted is the quickest way to make one a "serious" amateur out of avid garage players with $5 K-Mart bats.  I have seen it too many times that an amateur with spinny bats scored all his points against a good garage player by serving and pushing with heavy spin, which are only made possible with his inverted rubbers.  I will further say that nine out of ten times the garage players he beat have better form as well.  The advantage to be able to generate such a tremendous amount of spin with ease can not be overstated enough.  Most 1600-1800 level double-inverted loopers I observed and played against, have far less proper form and footwork than a comparable hardbatter or chopper as they rely on spinny serves, pushes and a few extremely spinny loops for most of their game.  This reliance on their equipment instead of pure fundamentals is strikingly similar to their own argument that LP blockers are simply material players.

VictorK wrote: IMO, the uniqueness of the equipment and/or style gives a significant advantage to the players who use them skillfully, which is the reason why many long pips or anitspin players avoid using their "secret weapons" in the pre-match warm ups. Since most players almost exclusively train with, and play against, inverted offensive minded players with "conventional" styles and stroke mechanics, when they face a significantly different rubber surface and/or style, they just don't know what to do, or even if they do know the appropriate tactics, they may have problems with timing, reading spin or with anticipating the direction, trajectory and bounce of the ball coming at them ... all of which comes with experience. From my personal experience, the more I play against a particular player with an unorthodox style or equipment, or even unusual serves, the better I do against him, at least initially, until I get used to his game.   By getting getting exposed to his unique game,  I have much more to gain than him, since he's plays guys like me all the time ... so I get better against him, even though neither my nor his level of play against everyone else changes.  After a while, when we get used our styles, our level of play against each other stabilizes. I've also noticed, that players who use strange equipment frequently have problems against other people with unusual gear/styles ... until they learn how to play against them. In summary, I do believe that using unconventional gear requires skills and provides welcome variety to TT.  However, I also believe, that if there were more players with unorthodox styles and gear, it would become more difficult for them to use it to their advantage against their "inverted victims".

Sometimes, inverted power-loopers intentionally avoid playing against those weird styles and then they lose against it in tournaments.. We have a 2200 looper in the club who tries to avoid playing me..  So, after avoiding me for a few weeks, we played and I beat him 3:0.. We played again and then he beat me 3:2... If he would play more frequently with me, he would probably beat me more than I beat him but he often avoids playing me by signing up at the tables where other loopers are playing. Last time at a tournament, I beat him 3:0..  I'm sure that if he'd play me more frequently in training, he would be able to give me a much better fight next time.

VictorK wrote: Pushblocker wrote: Sometimes, inverted power-loopers intentionally avoid playing against those weird styles and then they lose against it in tournaments.. I agree, there are many players who try to avoid playing against those with "weird" styles, to their own detriment. Interestingly, I have the opposite problem, as it's tough for me to find good LP blockers or antispin players to practice with.  There are two LP and one antispin guy I infrequently come across in my area, but they don't like to do drills and don't give me much trouble in club matches ... so when I finally have the opportunity to play against any of them at the club, I try, whenever possible, to extend the matches to 5 games, in order to maximize my playing time against them :o)

You should come to visit the clubs that I play in.. It's full of weird style.. From attackers who use anti on one side and long pips on the other, to a backhand smasher who attacks with a INCREDIBLE backhand but he has no forehand. Then we have a short pips/long pips blocker/attacker, a Seemiller anti/inverted attacker, a short pips push/forehand inverted attacker, a few penhold short pips attackers, allround loopers, power-loopers, several choppers (classical and modern) etc. etc. We have a incredible mix of styles at the clubs that I play at and I consider myself lucky. I always had trouble with certain styles including flat hitters.. I'm doing a lot better against flat hitters than I used to.. I used to have problems against other long pips players and I overcame it and now beat most defensive long pips styles. The only style remaining that I haven't found a effective game against are slow-loopers. We don't have any slow-loopers in the club. I did play a 1880 rated slow looper at the State Championship.. I beat him 3:1 but it was more work than it should be considering the rating difference.. It was one of my ugliest matches, looking like 2 beginners playing each other..

roundrobin wrote: VictorK wrote: IMO, the uniqueness of the equipment and/or style gives a significant advantage to the players who use them skillfully, which is the reason why many long pips or anitspin players avoid using their "secret weapons" in the pre-match warm ups. Since most players almost exclusively train with, and play against, inverted offensive minded players with "conventional" styles and stroke mechanics, when they face a significantly different rubber surface and/or style, they just don't know what to do, or even if they do know the appropriate tactics, they may have problems with timing, reading spin or with anticipating the direction, trajectory and bounce of the ball coming at them ... all of which comes with experience. From my personal experience, the more I play against a particular player with an unorthodox style or equipment, or even unusual serves, the better I do against him, at least initially, until I get used to his game.   By getting getting exposed to his unique game,  I have much more to gain than him, since he's plays guys like me all the time ... so I get better against him, even though neither my nor his level of play against everyone else changes.  After a while, when we get used our styles, our level of play against each other stabilizes. I've also noticed, that players who use strange equipment frequently have problems against other people with unusual gear/styles ... until they learn how to play against them. In summary, I do believe that using unconventional gear requires skills and provides welcome variety to TT.  However, I also believe, that if there were more players with unorthodox styles and gear, it would become more difficult for them to use it to their advantage against their "inverted victims". Some loopers like to overstate the fact that combination players deliberately "hide" their non-inverted side during warm-ups.  That's really not true as I have had the privilege to train with various ex-Chinese national team members and coaches, and their unified view is "warm-ups" prior to matches are not designed for your opponents to get used to your equipment, but rather to let yourself warm up.  Anything you need to know about your opponents and their equipment, you'd need to know prior to your match.  Warm-up is not the time to "learn" the properties of your opponent's equipment, it's way too late for that, and you'll be solely responsible for not being prepared if you don't know how to play against it... All of the world's top combination players including choppers do not "need" to warm up with their "weird" side if they don't want to and most do not.  At their level it's not an advantage, it's simply a tool.  At the lower level, some combination players do it, some don't.  Personally I only do so if my opponents request it, as I simply don't treat "warm-ups" as crucial as some.

Very true.. However, I usually tell my opponents that I have long pips and ask them if they want to hit a few balls against it.. However, I do 100% agree with you that warm up is to warm up yourself and not about making the opponent comfortable with your rubber. I don't need to warm up my pips game as it comes automatically but I need to practice forehand and backhand in case that I HAVE TO attack...

ttkenny wrote: Haven't seen any responses from CarbonTT either...hmmm..

To Pushblocker:  I don't even bother to show my paddle to my opponents anymore if they don't ask for it.  Those who respect my game enough would have wanted to know before we start a match.  Even Stefan Feth took notice and studied my match after I beat a 2300+ player and we were scheduled to play in the next round.  After I won the first game against him, he asked Khoa Nguyen to be his corner coach... Ellen Hwang, who beat me at a recent USATT-sanctioned tournament after down 3 match points, had her dad warming up with her with a long pips paddle for twenty minutes before our match. 

Edited by roundrobin - 12/06/2010 at 8:01pm

Carbon TT wrote: Pushblocker wrote: So, what's your rating??  Where are you located?? I'd like to play you and videotape it and post it here for everyone to see.. You shouldn't have a problem with me if you are so good against long pips.. I play tournaments all over the US.. I'm sure that I'll be near you whereever you are!!   Are you going to Nationals?

Not this year.. no vacation left.. but I will be in that area of the country next year for sure and I will be playing a tournament..  Right now, my out of state tournament schedule is probably the Cary Cup, some other 4 star tournament at the east coast, a 4 star tournament on the west coast, US Open in Wisconcin, NA Teams in Baltimore and next years Nationals in Vegas,,

Slade wrote: The only knock you can legitimately make is that it is less athletic and arguably boring, but that has nothing to do with current skill or difficulty in reaching that skill level. Rating is everything at the end of the day. 2200 LP blocker is still a 2200 player any way you look at it and thats some serious bidness.

VictorK wrote: roundrobin wrote: Some loopers like to overstate the fact that combination players deliberately "hide" their non-inverted side during warm-ups.  That's really not true as I have had the privilege to train with various ex-Chinese national team members and coaches, and their unified view is "warm-ups" prior to matches are not designed for your opponents to get used to your equipment, but rather to let yourself warm up.  Anything you need to know about your opponents and their equipment, you'd need to know prior to your match.  Warm-up is not the time to "learn" the properties of your opponent's equipment, it's way too late for that, and you'll be solely responsible for not being prepared if you don't know how to play against it... All of the world's top combination players including choppers do not "need" to warm up with their "weird" side if they don't want to and most do not.  At their level it's not an advantage, it's simply a tool.  At the lower level, some combination players do it, some don't.  Personally I only do so if my opponents request it, as I simply don't treat "warm-ups" as crucial as some. I agree that some players overstate the fact that combination players avoid using their non-inverted rubber during warm-up, and that they have all the right to warm-up with whichever rubber they want ... which doesn't change the fact (I learned it from several combination players) that the main reason many of them do so, is because they prefer not give the "taste" of their unique rubber to the opponent prior to the match, which I understand and respect, since I don't show them my best shots (e.g. serves) during warm-up.

If the combination bat player thinks so, that's his/her right but it's highly misguided... A slow and frictionless defensive rubber like anti and LPs can only take them so far without much skill, just like inverted rubbers at the garage player level.  In areas like L.A. and S.F. it's hardly unique to find combination bat players of fairly high level.  I am perfectly fine with players asking me politely to use my LP side during warm-ups, but I find it highly offensive when they say "Are you even going to let me warm up with your funny side at all?"