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A good push?

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    Posted: 08/04/2011 at 12:14am
I was training the other day with my coach and he said when you push, your paddle is supposed to be at a 45 degree open angle and the tip of the paddle is facing right as you let the ball hit your paddle. My question is the paddle supposed to be about 45 degrees? Before this I used to push so that I grazed the bottom of the ball with a slight horizontal angle. Like 100-140 degrees open
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2011 at 12:22am
It all depends on the amount of incoming underspin and how much underspin in turn you intend to put on your own shot. There are no hard and fast angles; experiment and through experience you'll know what to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2011 at 12:25am
Depending on the spin of the incoming ball. For topspin ball, I will use 45 to 60 degree open angle. For dead ball, use 85 degree. For backspin ball, about 120 degree open angle is fine.
 
It is best if you can try on a table tennis robot to find a angle working for you.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2011 at 1:05am
??? If 0 degrees is neutral or vertical,How does one get beyond 90 degrees closed or open?
I often have my paddle open at 60-70% when pushing deep and for max back spin when the ball is coming at me with a lot of backspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gatorling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2011 at 11:24am
It depends on the spin of the ball. For moderate backspin I use like 30 degree angle. For dead I use about 45, for a little top I almost like 70 degrees.
The leading edge of my blade always faces the net.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2011 at 12:39pm
I find most players do not open their blades enough when pushing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2011 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

??? If 0 degrees is neutral or vertical,How does one get beyond 90 degrees closed or open?
I often have my paddle open at 60-70% when pushing deep and for max back spin when the ball is coming at me with a lot of backspin.


against heavy underpin you can start at 45 and opens to past horizontal at 90 as long as your stroke starts ast you're belly and finishes with your arm extended and blade at net height.

good players with refined touch can use this same stroke against top and under.

i'll see if I can link to the shot I'm describing. it's like the bottom half of a C.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2011 at 4:20pm

Several has mentioned pushing against topspin. Doesn't that just pop up the ball?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2011 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Several has mentioned pushing against topspin. Doesn't that just pop up the ball?



If you go directly under the ball, absolutely. The trick here is to first stop the ball from moving forward, then with the same motion continue the motion of the blade under the ball. Like choppers, they don't just get under the ball, they slice starting from the back of the ball - which halts forward momentum and contunue under the ball - that creates underspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2011 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Several has mentioned pushing against topspin. Doesn't that just pop up the ball?



If you go directly under the ball, absolutely. The trick here is to first stop the ball from moving forward, then with the same motion continue the motion of the blade under the ball. Like choppers, they don't just get under the ball, they slice starting from the back of the ball - which halts forward momentum and contunue under the ball - that creates underspin.
 
Isn't what you're describing a chop block then, not a push?
 
Regarding the motion of first contacting the back of the ball and then continuing below the ball, I just don't see that in the video below.
 
@ 0:00 chopping with pips and @ 0:11 chopping with inverted. The blade face is vertical at contact and remains vertical well after the ball has left the rubber.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vassily Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2011 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Several has mentioned pushing against topspin. Doesn't that just pop up the ball?



If you stab down on the ball faster than the ball is spinning, then it wont pop up.

Although judging by the 0-180 angles of the person describing blade angles against topspin I think they were thinking about a closed face.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/04/2011 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Several has mentioned pushing against topspin. Doesn't that just pop up the ball?



If you go directly under the ball, absolutely. The trick here is to first stop the ball from moving forward, then with the same motion continue the motion of the blade under the ball. Like choppers, they don't just get under the ball, they slice starting from the back of the ball - which halts forward momentum and contunue under the ball - that creates underspin.
 
Isn't what you're describing a chop block then, not a push?
 
Regarding the motion of first contacting the back of the ball and then continuing below the ball, I just don't see that in the video below.
 
@ 0:00 chopping with pips and @ 0:11 chopping with inverted. The blade face is vertical at contact and remains vertical well after the ball has left the rubber.
 


Yes, but the video shows a full pledge chop. You can do micro movements with the same concept to push a topspin ball. The principle remains.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gatorling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2011 at 10:03am
Yeah the video demonstrates the same basic concept. You wouldn't push against something that is top-spin and comes far off the table. That'd either be a chop-block or a chop and I think those are MUCH harder to do considering you have much less time.
Opponent's however can serve a short top spin or do a top-spin, slow speed flip or simply drop the ball dead and short after a push.
vs short dead/top serves, slow shorter flips or drop shots..that's where open paddle pushes come into play.

The topic is pretty complex though and your forward motion, stroke speed and bat angle should change according to the speed of the incoming ball and the spin. Just know that putting backspin on shorter top-spin/dead balls is possible and can often be a good variation vs simply flipping every single short dead/top ball.
Often it's used as a positioning tool, do an unexpected chop off a dead/top spin ball that is deep and awkwardly placed and then kill the next ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2011 at 10:12am
Originally posted by gatorling gatorling wrote:

Yeah the video demonstrates the same basic concept. You wouldn't push against something that is top-spin and comes far off the table. That'd either be a chop-block or a chop and I think those are MUCH harder to do considering you have much less time.
Opponent's however can serve a short top spin or do a top-spin, slow speed flip or simply drop the ball dead and short after a push.
vs short dead/top serves, slow shorter flips or drop shots..that's where open paddle pushes come into play.

The topic is pretty complex though and your forward motion, stroke speed and bat angle should change according to the speed of the incoming ball and the spin. Just know that putting backspin on shorter top-spin/dead balls is possible and can often be a good variation vs simply flipping every single short dead/top ball.
Often it's used as a positioning tool, do an unexpected chop off a dead/top spin ball that is deep and awkwardly placed and then kill the next ball.


That is a very good explanation! Thank you. For some reason I struggled explaining it correctly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote right2niru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2013 at 11:38pm
It is a very good topic indeed ;
I have been always wondering if my opponent is putting the ball back on the net on a deep push on serve return due to dead push or heavy under spin . I felt sometimes its gotta do with incoming service spin depending on your technique whether u want to add spin or give back whatever was sent - nevertheless push is a great stroke if learnt and spent time on as much as blocks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2013 at 8:56am
With good feeling for pushes you can push absolutely everything including topspin, underspin, sidespin, etc.... Makes you much more solid and secure in receiving serves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2013 at 9:10am
When you're REALLY good at pushing, you can start to chopblock spinny topspins from your opponent That is the hardest test on pushing and if you can do that, there will not be a type of serve that can trouble you (unless it's something to do with disguise and trickery)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vutiendat1337 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2013 at 4:15am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

When you're REALLY good at pushing, you can start to chopblock spinny topspins from your opponent That is the hardest test on pushing and if you can do that, there will not be a type of serve that can trouble you (unless it's something to do with disguise and trickery)

My teammate is a pure "pusher", all he does is pushing with inverted and chops with pips. He can push everything and really really heavy. I serve top spin, he pushes it, it might pops a bit but it's short and heavy so still not easy to attack. I don't know how he can do that. When I push topspin, it always flies over the table. T__T 

Someone make a video how to push topspin and no spin, please, pretty please!CryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2013 at 7:16am
Originally posted by vutiendat1337 vutiendat1337 wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

When you're REALLY good at pushing, you can start to chopblock spinny topspins from your opponent That is the hardest test on pushing and if you can do that, there will not be a type of serve that can trouble you (unless it's something to do with disguise and trickery)

My teammate is a pure "pusher", all he does is pushing with inverted and chops with pips. He can push everything and really really heavy. I serve top spin, he pushes it, it might pops a bit but it's short and heavy so still not easy to attack. I don't know how he can do that. When I push topspin, it always flies over the table. T__T 

Someone make a video how to push topspin and no spin, please, pretty please!CryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCry

Push the side of the ball and make a hard push forward (not into the ball, but on the side, basically grazing the side of the ball hard). With topspin you have to push tangential to the ball, not perpendicular to avoid the spin from kicking into your bat. Make sure your bat is pointing upwards when u contact the ball. Also you need to have perfect timing and really good feeling otherwise the ball will indeed pop up hard. It also helps if you use a deader setup (i.e. not so bouncy), it's easier to push using dead Chinese rubber compared to bouncy tensors. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2013 at 7:21am
Also don't be afraid of the topspin, the more afraid you are the easier it is to pop the ball up. The only way to push topspin safely is to brush the ball HARD to negate the existing spin on the ball. That is why you always hear a loud thud from players who push topspin serves due to the bat hitting the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2013 at 7:34am
The only players who can push topspin with confidence without seemingly using much force are Hao Shuai and Michael Maze, but it seems that the so called "short push" has topspin on it, so if the opponent pushes that back it would be a high ball for them to smash! I don't know how they do it, their touch around the table is just INSANE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2013 at 8:51am
Just a few things to point out here:
Many times we use the word "push" but it's really a short chop. You are not hitting the ball in the middle or coming over the top, you are coming under the ball so a push is really a short chop. 
Yes you can "chop block" topspin but it takes very good timing and touch. I regularly play with a 2250 player that does this chop block against my BH loop and it's very effective.
Also to the very first post here where the guy said his coach says to push with your racket at 45* angle...that is just a generalization. Like some of the other replied, it depends on the amount of incoming spin. The chinese coach I take my kids to and myself talk about what o'clock you should contact the ball rather than what angle to use. I think it's a little easier for people to grasp. If your right-handed and someone serves or pushes heavy underspin to your FH and you "push" (short chop) the ball back then contact the ball around 5 or 5:30, 6 would be completely under the ball, with 12 o'clock being the top of the ball. If the ball comes to your BH with heavy underspin then contact the ball about 7 o'clock or 6:30. If it has less spin then maybe around 7:30 or 8. I think it's easier to talk about contact angle using the clock method rather than what degree of angle. It's easier for me and thats how I teach people.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2013 at 9:45am
Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

Just a few things to point out here:
Many times we use the word "push" but it's really a short chop. You are not hitting the ball in the middle or coming over the top, you are coming under the ball so a push is really a short chop. 
Yes you can "chop block" topspin but it takes very good timing and touch. I regularly play with a 2250 player that does this chop block against my BH loop and it's very effective.
Also to the very first post here where the guy said his coach says to push with your racket at 45* angle...that is just a generalization. Like some of the other replied, it depends on the amount of incoming spin. The chinese coach I take my kids to and myself talk about what o'clock you should contact the ball rather than what angle to use. I think it's a little easier for people to grasp. If your right-handed and someone serves or pushes heavy underspin to your FH and you "push" (short chop) the ball back then contact the ball around 5 or 5:30, 6 would be completely under the ball, with 12 o'clock being the top of the ball. If the ball comes to your BH with heavy underspin then contact the ball about 7 o'clock or 6:30. If it has less spin then maybe around 7:30 or 8. I think it's easier to talk about contact angle using the clock method rather than what degree of angle. It's easier for me and thats how I teach people.
 

Not necessarily, if you come under the ball when pushing side-topspin you'll pop up the ball so badly that it would be a lob asking to be killed. If your 2250 friend can chopblock topspins, he must have extremely good touch on his push. If I don't mind asking, is his push really good and better than the other players at his level? (control, stability, spin)


Edited by blahness - 02/13/2013 at 9:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2013 at 10:19am
of course you will pop up the ball if you just push back a topspin ball...you have to chop block it to return it. This is a skill that many people just don't practice, and since he is an international player maybe it's something they practice where he is from. He also said when he was younger he used to be about 2400 so maybe he's just skilled enough to do this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2013 at 11:57am
 Anyone ever do a "push drive"? This is a push that is low, fast and can surprise an opponent including myself. It happens unplanned once in awhile. It happens when you start to loop then change racket angle with fast arm speed and it comes out as a "push drive". Kinda strange. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopchopslam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2013 at 2:23pm
Why are you all worried about pushing against topspin balls? Topspin balls are nearly always long enough to go off the table. You shouldn't be pushing those! Loop or chop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Loop40mm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2013 at 9:26pm
First, this is not me.  Someone had a lesson with my coach Crystal Huang and I found the video.

Here's a lesson on pushing.

I had some of these flaws too: long stroke to push, paddle flattens out at the end, no follow thru.

Correct forehand push: short stroke, push at an angle and follow thru.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc1yr2fXjxk


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2013 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by chopchopslam chopchopslam wrote:

Why are you all worried about pushing against topspin balls? Topspin balls are nearly always long enough to go off the table. You shouldn't be pushing those! Loop or chop.
 
 
  Yes this is true most of the time, however due to the angle, speed and depth of a topspin it can disrupt timing to perform a loop then I occassionally have to put on the brakes and either block the loop or as stated above perform a "push drive".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2013 at 8:15am
Originally posted by chopchopslam chopchopslam wrote:

Why are you all worried about pushing against topspin balls? Topspin balls are nearly always long enough to go off the table. You shouldn't be pushing those! Loop or chop.

I can serve my side-topspin short 90% of the time, and I think many other players can do the same thing really easily. If you only know how to flip short side-topspin serves and not push them, I'll be serving short side-topspin to you all day long, and then attack your soft flip HARD on the 3rd ball from both wings. More variation > less variation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopchopslam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2013 at 9:39am
Side topspin is my favorite serve, actually. Typically I chop block it with the pips back into the body and they get a pretty nasty ball with hard-to-read spin.
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