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Heavy weight training and TT coexist? |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Posted: 03/10/2021 at 6:21pm |
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Wang Liqin was incredibly strong from what I read, which is why he stayed relatively injury free (along with very good biomechanics).
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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Zjk and explosive tt Players might have an advantage because their style is heavily dependent on strong legs, but Zjk doesn’t weigh close to 200 pounds (154 according to google). Generally TT players just have a weird built for weightlifting. There are so many muscle imbalances from training specifically for TT. Strong and big legs (at least some Europeans and a lot of Chinese), strong stable core, imbalances between the right and left body half when it comes to arms and the back, and also very tight muscles around the pectoral area.
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edgesandnets
Member Joined: 02/01/2021 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 80 |
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Obviously nobody is going to be participating in powerlifting meets anytime soon, but NBA point guards often weigh ~200 and can deadlift 400, which I could possibly see ZJK doing. However, Dima and his lunges with 20 pound dumbbells (not to pick on him, but I feel like I've seen videos of him doing this and his body doesn't look that strong to me) is almost certainly not able to lift heavy.
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Read my blog on the pro table tennis circuit at EdgesAndNets.com
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Tt Gold
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Edited by Tt Gold - 03/06/2021 at 6:18am |
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Joo Se Kev
Super Member Joined: 03/06/2006 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 208 |
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Same here, though I'm working to change that!
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edgesandnets
Member Joined: 02/01/2021 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 80 |
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i have yet to see a compound lift video by a top pro that really blows me away. they all appear to be doing low weight high reps. However there are some pros (not in the top 20) that do have really nice bodies (although they don't post training videos)
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Legolas
Beginner Joined: 03/02/2021 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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Well, I am not a specialist, but my friend is a professional taekwondo fighter, and I asked her about what is allowed and what not. She told me that they have a nutrition coach who takes care of their food before the competitions and also the trainer who keeps up with their body state. They are not allowed to go to gym or something, because extra mass would take away from their mobility and strength. Also, gym trainings require a lot of resting and tendons become not so flexible, which affect their sport abilities a lot!! So, everything is a bit more complicated. It depends from sport type to type, but anyway.
Edited by Legolas - 03/05/2021 at 3:15pm |
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Lawson
Member Joined: 05/08/2016 Location: Spain Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJqYv_SFxzE
Min.34:20 I also read in Gatien's book that weight training is important.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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His FH looks so similar to the unstoppable Quadri Aruna FH hahaha...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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BeaverMD
Gold Member Joined: 11/09/2007 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Yesss!!! When I first saw this thread, I started thinking about the "Killerspin bodybuilder guy" but I couldn't remember his name. Thank you both for the videos. I like Ron but I take exception to his nickname Bolo. There is only one Bolo and that's the guy from Enter the Dragon USATT lists him at 1407 in 1994 and he's currently 2067. That progress is nothing to sneeze at! Regardless of his muscles or athleticism, you need to have good TT IQ at that rating range. It's great that he's maintained his flexibility and range of motion with that bulk.
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
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Heavy weights are needed in tt provided you have an annual calendar of training divided into phases. Pre competition phase is the one with the highest amount of weight and lesser amount of reps but it is also the phase where it starts going down (weights) up until the competition phase wherein your weight used is only the weight of the racket.
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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Yes, I'm friends with Ron and have seen Renata compete at several tournaments.
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An EJ to a table tennis player is an equipment junkie. An ej to a mathematician is a standard basis vector.
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RDinTN
Member Joined: 03/27/2019 Location: 37075 Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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Glad I only ever practiced with him! Hate to have my opponent take off his shirt and flex on me, if I did that someone would call the SPCA and claim there was a bear loose in the TT gym!
Do Ron and Renata ever play in your area? She was a SOLID player!
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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I never saw that one, thanks. This is my favorite Ron Joseph video from a while ago.
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An EJ to a table tennis player is an equipment junkie. An ej to a mathematician is a standard basis vector.
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RDinTN
Member Joined: 03/27/2019 Location: 37075 Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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So check out Ron "Bolo" Joseph - Professional Body Builder (at that time) and Personal Trainer doing some TT Training;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzv0upTasCw He starts at 3:51 mark until 5:01 Highest rating 2124, obviously he spend a ton of hours at the gym!
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Antonlan_Lan
Beginner Joined: 04/04/2019 Location: Stockholm Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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A slightly of topic post maybe but hopefully of some interest.
"Bragden" a swedish documentary focusing mainly on the national teams gold medal in 1989 world championship in Düsseldorf (it is actually 30 years ago today 4th of april) describes how the swedish training regiment changed during the 80s. During world championship 1987 in New Delhi most of the team got sick. Appelgren was to sick to compete in the singels tournament but Waldner did and managed to get to the finals where he lost to Jiang Jialiang. The analysis after the tournament came to the conclusion that Waldner had been playing the best table tennis of his life, in no small part due to the fact that he had lost 9 kg during his illness and therefore where faster and could use his forehand more. After worlds 87 the national team started more focused weight training to be able to be faster and more explosive. They couldn't plan stomach flue before every tournament after all . Off course the documentary does not describe the training program but there is an interview from 87 or 88 where waldner is seen squating 50 kg and stating that the plan is to be able to squat the double within 6 months which isn't very impressive but at least tells us that they did weight training with the aim of getting (much) stronger. For those interested - the documentary is avaliable on youtube with english subs.
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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Good point - can't argue with that.
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An EJ to a table tennis player is an equipment junkie. An ej to a mathematician is a standard basis vector.
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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The real gain in weight comes from double stacking those all you can eat pancakes at IHOP.
Mark
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FruitLoop
Super Member Joined: 09/20/2018 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 405 |
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There is only a subtle difference apart from the weight lifted. They are both "for" exactly the same thing just depends on intensity/volume.
Edited by FruitLoop - 02/12/2019 at 4:13pm |
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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In this video, I've been under the impression that doing single stack cable rows are for conditioning and moderate power gains, while double stacking is for power. Is that correct?
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An EJ to a table tennis player is an equipment junkie. An ej to a mathematician is a standard basis vector.
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BeaverMD
Gold Member Joined: 11/09/2007 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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One of the first videos I watched when I first started playing TT was the 1987 WTTC. I remember thinking "I guess to be a world class TT player, you need to be anorexic." Search the players that year: Jiang Jialiang, Waldner, Lindh, Persson, Ulf Carlsson, Teng Yi, the Mazunov brothers, Zoran and Lupi, Rosskopf, Grubba, KTS, Yoo Nam Kyu, etc. But I did remember that Gatien had a not so skinny body, but still explosive. But the rest all looked like you could wrap your hands around their waist.
This "anorexic trend" would continue into the late 1990's. KLH vs. LGL in the 1995 WTTC finals come to mind. Fast forward to 2003 with the introduction of the 40mm cell and things appeared to change. Schlager of course won and if you compare his physique from let's say 1997 WTTC to when he won in 2003, he was still skinny but had a but more on the upper body. Kreanga was not always very skinny. And as we moved to 2005 until 2013 before the 40mm plastic, players were definitely not skinny. Take for example Wang Hao. You can also compare the 1997 versions of WLQ and Ma Lin to their 2007 versions. Definitely much more muscular. So we can tell they are now lifting weights. As for Heavyspin's question, go for it brother!
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Joo Se Kev
Super Member Joined: 03/06/2006 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 208 |
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And to add a little bit more, as more and more research has come out in the past 3 years or so, it seems that on a set by set basis, reps anywhere from 6 all the way up to around 30 provide an equal stimulus for muscle growth (provided you come appropriately close to failure). So if you're training hard and doing sets of 15-30 reps, you'll still build muscle (in addition to increasing muscular endurance).
You'll even be able to build muscle with sets sub 5 reps, it's just not as efficient (you'll have to do more sets and rest longer). All that being said, even under the *best* conditions, muscle growth is a slow process that is easy to control, maintain, and even reduce if you feel like you've taken things too far. Worrying about gaining too much muscle and becoming bulky is like worrying that if you read a medical textbook you might accidentally become a doctor.
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FruitLoop
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Most are very weak and would benefit from any of the above due to novice gains but j agree with the rest. Apart from the power/strength comment. You have the nomenclature wrong there. It's strength but power is improved concurrently as strength is a component of power. If you train quick lifts this is slightly different as they express power. |
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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I think they can. Especially if you are trying to do them both in the same time period. You won't get so huge because you need time to practice table tennis.
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MCollins
Silver Member Joined: 05/28/2016 Location: Canada (NL) Status: Offline Points: 644 |
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With regards to the conversation above about strength vs size, I think the devil is in the details. High reps (15ish or more) will mostly lead to muscle endurance. All those metabolism enzymes get "better." With 8-12 reps-ish, you're going to be getting stronger, but also putting on a fair amount of muscle. With low reps (2-5ish) you're going to get power (which some people call strength) but won't put on a lot of size. I figure table tennis players would benefit mostly from the low-rep power training and the high-rep muscle endurance training, but not so much from the 8-12 rep training that gets you bigger.
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pingpungpeng
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Edited by pingpungpeng - 02/10/2019 at 7:04am |
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yogi_bear
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Joo, I agree on that. TT training is the sum of its parts and weight training with physical conditioning is part of the total training program every player who is serious should take part of.
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Joo Se Kev
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Just wanted to chime in and say how much I'm enjoying this conversation. Really inspiring me to get to work on the second edition of my book!
I still firmly believe proper resistance training should be a part of every table tennis players training regimen. But, as I state in the book, it shouldn't be the ONLY part. It's just one piece of the puzzle.
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yogi_bear
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For higher levels of tt players, there comes a point where weight training increases up to the point where he is lifting heavy weights then decreases after some time Lifting weights in tt as a proper program does not mean lifting the same amount of weight all year round. It changes depending on the time of how far from the major competition you are. Also, lifting weights does not automatically make you as big as those pro bodybuilders.
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heavyspin
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So I tested how my TT game would be affected by heavy upper body lifting just 1 to 2 minutes before playing. Since there's no bench press available I substituted with a version of push-ups. Doing these push-ups and being considerably overweight allows me to reap the benefits of strength building by naturally adding a significant amount of resistance to the exercise (people in good shape can't take advantage of this luxury).
I challenged a mid 1700's version of Pushblocker with the added rule as follows. I do a set of push-ups before each game and the match is best of 3 (wanted to avoid the possibility of 5 sets). It caused a slight affect in game 1 and my strokes were stiffer early in game 2. By the middle of game 2, it felt normal again and I won comfortably. I conclude that if one takes a day off from upper body lifting before important matches, he should be unaffected. Edited by heavyspin - 02/09/2019 at 12:51am |
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