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3 Tips for Bachhand Topspin against Backspin |
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nicholasy ![]() Super Member ![]() Joined: 06/23/2018 Location: Seoul, S.Korea Status: Offline Points: 322 |
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3 Tips for Backhand Topspin against Backspin by Chinese Coach
Edited by nicholasy - 02/08/2019 at 6:18pm |
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BH-Man ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Your biomechanics for BH are well ahead of those for your FH. Do you get practice or training on medium BH loops or slow, heavy spin BH loops? I know majority of Korean coaches prefer to train players to fast drive everything, but do you ever get a chance to train those?
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nicholasy ![]() Super Member ![]() Joined: 06/23/2018 Location: Seoul, S.Korea Status: Offline Points: 322 |
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Heavy Spin BH. Yes. I learned it from China & Korea both. Basiccally, The Method for Heavy Spin BH is almost same between China & Korea. I think, As you mentioned, KOR & CHN coaches are prefer to train the fast one first. |
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Tt Gold ![]() Gold Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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I saw a video from a German youtuber that works for xiom. He had one of the junior players of the Korean national team in his office and played a bit with him. The junior player gave him some tips for the backhand. What he showed was a complete different technique. He showed a technique where you do a more hitting topspin and then a motion where you push your racket down, to bring the ball down.http://youtu.be/Wu0JxGEzYoM
Starts at 4:42
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Lula ![]() Super Member ![]() Joined: 07/18/2017 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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I think it looks pretty good. is it suppose to be a backhand kill?
If it is suppose to be just a soft opening shot i think you could accelerate alot more, so you brush the ball more so you get some spin. maybe you can loop a bit more upward aswell. Accelerating and a bit more upward will give you a higher arc so the shot will be somewhat more safe. More spin will also make it harder for your opponent. Now i feel the shot is somewhat flat and the arc is low so you miss some, but i feel that she wants you to play pretty hard against backspin and that is why the shot is somewhat flat. But i am not sure.
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nicholasy ![]() Super Member ![]() Joined: 06/23/2018 Location: Seoul, S.Korea Status: Offline Points: 322 |
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Thanks for your sharing. I've checked it, but I think that His BH and My BH is a little bit different. It could be different for BH by Coach in my opinion.
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Tt Gold ![]() Gold Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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nah. The video I linked shows exactly what I mean. It's like a circular motion. If you look at fzd's backhand you'll see that he also presses down on the ball. Kindo F like the motion of a punch block. It's weird for me to talk about backhand technique, since there are so many backhand techniques out there. Liam uses a lot of natural arm/ wrist, while someone like fan uses this pressing motion. Lin uses a circular motion as well, but without the pressing down part. His circular motion is even bigger. I think the newest technique is going into the direction of fan's technique.
Yet if we look at the best backhands in this century, then we'll see that there are different than the ones today. Zjk uses a backhand technique that I'd consider the most basic backhand technique. One that everyone could agree is textbook. Same with wang hao. Ovtcharov has a very different technique from everyone else, but I think he is a very unique player in that sense and shouldn't be included when talking about the backhand, since his game is oddly build. I think right now there are two major backhand techniques used. 1. The natural swinging technique. A technique where you just swing your arm into it. Examples: -best example is liam (his backhand is so natural, his wrist just follows through his swing) - ma long ( also swings his arm in) - harimoto ( his wrist doesn't follow through from the momentum of the forearm though, he adds a lot of force actively) 2. The pressing backhand/ ripping backhand. Major difference to the 1. Is that the arm doesn't swing that naturally. The pressing and ripping backhand can look very different in the examples I'm going to mention, but at the core they are the same. Example: - fzd ( uses this pressing down motion) - Simon gauzy ( doesn't press down, but uses his wrist in a similar way. He presses forward into the ball strongly) -Hugo calderano ( falls into the ripping category. He does a strong swing with a wrist movement of that of Simon) - Lin Gaoliang ( uses a very circular motion ripping with his arm mostly) If you want to see their backhands in action and check what I mean, there are a few videos that showcase them. Simon gauzy ( watch the blade review on table tennis daily) Lin Gaoliang ( watch butterfly Japan technique videos) Fan Zhendong ( backhand slow motion video or the video I linked before) Hugo ( also table tennis daily blade review) Ma long and fzd comparison ( World Cup training video on ittf) Harimoto ( training videos)
Edited by Tt Gold - 02/12/2019 at 6:01am |
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FruitLoop ![]() Super Member ![]() Joined: 09/20/2018 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 405 |
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Hmmm not sure, I think Pitchford and Calderano have similar backhands, more similar than others mentioned and yet you put them on a different category.
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Tt Gold ![]() Gold Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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if you look at the way they play the backhand, you'll see that Liam just throws his forearm into it (simply speaking). Calderano on the other hand actively uses his arm and wrist. Hard to explain, but once Liam lets go of his forearm, he is not in control of the movement anymore. Hugo on the other hand is constantly in control of the stroke. So if Hugo decided to stop after initiating his topspin, the topspin wouldn't work, since he's blocking the acceleration. Liam on the other hand only has to initiate and the momentum does the rest. Watch the blade reviews on table tennis daily's channel. Viscaria and foco blade review.
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NextLevel ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Can you please show your backhand? I honestly think you are complicating a topic unnecessarily. Everyone has a different backhand but they all have the same circular and speed production principles as the forehand. The minor adjustments are to provide a different quality of ball either with more speed or spin depending on the incoming speed or spin.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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nicholasy ![]() Super Member ![]() Joined: 06/23/2018 Location: Seoul, S.Korea Status: Offline Points: 322 |
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Cool!
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NextLevel ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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When I was looping backspin at USATY 1700, one of my coaches who has never been to Korea, said that there as a difference between the upward lifting motion and the forward drive motion and encouraged me to enf the upward circular portion of my stroke when I made contact with the balland to finish more forward.. All he is asking the TTR hunter to do is to add more forward motion into the contact once the backspin has been handled. He is looking for a different quality of ball. When a coach is trying to get more out of your technique, that is what a coach does. Making it sound like a new backhand is just going to confuse people.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Ttgold has a solid backhand.
Yes there are distinctions in backhand technique but everyone is just trying to do the same thing - get a higher quality ball. The actual technique you end up with is often an accident of evolution.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tt Gold ![]() Gold Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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I don't think I'm complicating the backhand. If anything I'm just giving my thoughts about different techniques of backhands and making them more clear, by dividing them into just two categories. If you look at the videos I mentioned, you'll definitely see the difference. Even just watching the elbow and forearm at the end of the movement clearly shows that the power is applied differently.
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Tt Gold ![]() Gold Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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NextLevel ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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What I am saying is that both players are trying to get a quality ball. When they were younger, someone taught them to play a backhand and they did something and got a quality ball. Then another coach got them and tried to make it better and asked for this instead of that. And they did what they thought the coach said and changed it. And so on. You are seeing the end product now and talking about it as if the player is choosing to play that way, but that is not how technique is developed .No one said 'use the elbow like this and the wrist like this and let the wrist finish here and the elbow go there etc." When people talk about technique like that, as long as they are not saying that this is how the technique was taught, it is okay. What the coaches were trying to do was to teach and get a quality ball. If you look at Ma Long, he modifies his grip seriously yo play backhand. So does Timo and Dima. No one said "well you must do your thumb like this and your wrist like this". It is experimentation to get a quality ball.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness ![]() Premier Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I think Fan Zhendong has a very different stroke compared to the rest of the pros...he pronates/supinates his arms actively rather than it being an afterthought inclusion, that along with extremely good biomechanics on the lower body makes him both extremely speedy and powerful. It's also the exact same movement responsible for much of the power in badminton and tennis. I think the pronation/supination makes the stroke less stable due to having to time precise racket angle changes. The mechanism is especially clear when he has to hit in a cramped position.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Tt Gold ![]() Gold Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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zeio ![]() Premier Member ![]() Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Good to know that someone notices it. It's not exactly new. As far as I could track, WH started transitioning to this biomechanics from the mid to late 2000.
Li Xiaodong talks extensively on this concept in one of his tutorials from 2014. Starting from 5:46, he goes over the swing trajectory and how many grass-root coaches teach it wrong. At 7:13, he mentions that at the highest level, the swing direction could go toward your bottom right(for a right-hander) when returning a loop, like the one from WH above. Edited by zeio - 02/12/2019 at 5:00am |
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NextLevel ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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It's not new - and the way I have always understood is a swing trajectory adjustment to trap topspin. I don't understand it so much as punching down but spinning over the ball forward to bring the ball down.
Edited by NextLevel - 02/12/2019 at 9:04am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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The kill shot for that stroke is to hit the left side of the ball and turn the wrist/forearm over. IT's something you can experiment with but I wouldn't call it someone's regular backhand.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Slowhand ![]() Super Member ![]() Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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When WH or FZD finish a backhand with a down to the right swing trajectory it's usually only the follow through that's going down. On contact with the ball -- the only part that counts -- trajectory is mostly forward and up (check out the 2008 Wang Hao video frame by frame around the 35:05 mark). I think the exaggerated downward follow through is mostly useful for fast recovery, especially when using a curved swing trajectory.
I do think Tt Gold makes a good point in distinguishing between straighter (more "natural") and more elliptical ("pressing" or "ripping") swing trajectories. You can generate more power with an elliptical trajectory because you can fit a longer swing into the same space. The cost is that your swing direction is changing moment to moment so you need better timing.
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NextLevel ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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No, contact with the ball.is not the only part of the swing that counts. This is one of the most dangerous things table tennis engineers say and while it seems self evident and true, it can send someone's technique in the wrong direction. A swing has a trajectory and the trajectory is not just hat happens at contact but what happens before during and after contact. The whole trajectory has an effect on the ball produced. Swinging to press down has a different effect from swinging to open up because the racket path turns the ball in a different way. in all TT strokes, not just backhand, there are different approaches to spin generation based oncontact point and follow through. Some people like to brush from the start and while some people like to hit into the ball with more solid contact and turn the ball to finish their stroke. And many players use both methods. I don't think it is worth making them to kinds of backhands. It is simply a different approach to the ball. And in the plastic ball era, the solid contact approach is becoming more dominant because it allows you to hit into the ball more solidly. But I think everyone just does what they think is right at the appropriate moment given the incoming ball, the actual swings for both approaches look very similar to me but the mental approach and output is not.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Slowhand ![]() Super Member ![]() Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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Ball contact is the only part of the swing trajectory that counts for what the ball does. A downward follow through after the ball is headed back in the other direction has no effect on the spin or flight path of the ball. Of course follow through counts for recovery, and every part of the swing trajectory is connected to every other part, and everything including what you had for breakfast the morning of the tournament counts for how much power you generate. If you're talking about how best to conceptualize hitting the ball then I agree that it's not helpful to think only about the moment of contact. In that sense it might be useful to think metaphorically about "turning" the ball with a particular follow through even though your follow through is doing no such thing.
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NextLevel ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Maybe you should give us a video tutorial on how to apply your advice. Like I said, the physics is sound but is very misguided for practical TT. You can show me in your tutorial how you stroke and get a certain effect at impact but follow through very differently on both strokes. it is just nphysically possible for the rapid continuous motions that are spin strokes. In other words, your statement is good physics and stupid table tennis.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Slowhand ![]() Super Member ![]() Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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I wasn't aware of giving any advice but if I do I think I'll put it on a website called Stupid Table Tennis. In the meantime, I'm sure you can find videos on deceptive serves, snakes, etc., to see how follow through doesn't effect spin.
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Tt Gold ![]() Gold Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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the way I think about it is a mix of both of your conceptions. No, the follow through itself doesn't directly effect the spin on the ball. But yes it does effect the spin on the ball. What does that mean?
The thing that effects the ball is the stuff that happens on contact. For example the arm speed that you generate leading up to the contact. Example: let's say you didn't accelerate before the contact and after the contact you accelerate. That won't change the speed of the ball, cause it happens afterwards. But the things that happen after the contact effect the ball, just not on a physical level. Hard to word it for me. It is more the physiological aspect of it that in the end effects the things that happen before and on contact. What does that mean? Example: of course pressing down after the backhand topspin won't bring the ball down on the table. I can't hit the ball and then drag my arm to the left to magically change the direction of the ball. But the important question is "what does this pressing down concept do to my way of acting?" If I think about pressing down afterwards, I'll subconsciously do the stroke differently ( different acceleration, racket angle/position on contact) Edited by Tt Gold - 02/12/2019 at 6:02pm |
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NextLevel ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Exactly. Which is why I said good physics, bad table tennis. What happens before and after both affect how the ball is contacted. It affects how the racket is moving (speed and direction) at the point of contact. I remember when someone said it didn't, I tried to build my table tennis around the idea. But as I got better, I realized how stupid it was as a naive statement. IT's one thing to swing, and then do all kinds of nonsense after like people do on serves where they serve then do all kinds of rubbish AFTER the serve is completed (which is not the follow through). But the racket trajectory and speed is determined by a lot of things including the size of the follow through, and the trajectory and speed are practically unique for a particular way of approaching the ball. Of course, in theory, all that matter is what happens at the ball. But can you gain speed and decelerate and get the same racket trajectory that creates a specific type of spin and speed vector with a different swing? Yes if you think it is a physics problem, like many low level TT players do. But not if you try it and realize that the quality of the follow through in some ways affects the quality of the swing.
Edited by NextLevel - 02/12/2019 at 9:38pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Good physics.
This is mostly good table tennis. Think of the way you swing your racket as a path. The follow through of a fast swing is part of the path. There is a speed of the swing and there is a direction. There is a contact point on the ball. What the stupid table tennis physicists want you to believe is that how you swing at the ball to end at a certain point doesn't produce a unique contact point and turning effect on the ball. They want you to believe that there are other ways of creating the same speed and turning effect just by focusing on what happens at the ball, and not what happens before and after. I am sorry, this is sheer stupidity. It also cannot help anyone build a good table tennis stroke. I know because when I first heard it, I thought it was smart. And I tried to shorten my stroke to take advantage. And I learned pretty quickly why the Chinese phrase for loop is something that means "pull past" or so I hear. The follow through affects the swing speed and plane and therefore affects how the ball is contacted. Immediately I grabbed this concept of swing path, my table tennis became better. I started looking for swing paths to handle various spins etc. I started to understand what my swing path meant in terms of the effect on the ball. In reality, most people just copy good players. I unfortunately started at an older age and like to give language to my actions so I had to come to my own conclusions. And I have never found a really good player who doesn't think how they finish the stroke affects what happens to the ball. The people who parrot the "all that matters is the contact" are usually the table tennis engineers/physicists, who are usually never more than USATT 1500.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Slowhand ![]() Super Member ![]() Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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Your AB line segment is real but short. Contact time between ball and rubber is only a few milliseconds, not enough time for the ball to travel on the rubber more than a small fraction of its own diameter. Even so it's meaningful, not because the ball moves on the rubber but because the forces applied to the ball change depending on the relative positions of A and B, which in turn depend on the swing trajectory during the few milliseconds of contact. The early part of follow through -- immediately after contact -- depends on swing trajectory during contact because you can't change trajectory instantaneously. But eventually you can change it, often fast enough to be deceptive, and so the rest of the follow through doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what the ball is doing. Deception may be the most typical reason to modify a natural follow through, but there's also faster recovery, less stress on shoulder or elbow, etc.
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