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Body-Turn to improve Topspin by CHN coach's lesson |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yes if you watch some of his other match videos it's quite obvious that he was doing it wrong previously...I think even in the video he improved his shot quality significantly (look at the before vs after video segments). Most people in my club have body rotation but they're not doing it in the optimal way (legs and obliques driving hip rotation without much up and down weight transfer) which allows both fast recovery as well as very powerful shots. I've asked some of the very high level players to show me, and they showed me a very similar rotation movement without much up or down weight transfer. From what I see from US videos, it seems that the majority of club players there too don't do it correctly either. The European amateurs who post here seem to mostly get it correct but they seem to be in much higher level generally. I don't think it's such "basic club level TT" technique, or everyone would have FHs like Yassun in the WRM video.
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Ah, I guess I should be more careful when describing things, but I doubt I ever called it club level.technique, I mean it is stuff that most club level.players know.. Clubs in the USA often have Chinese coaches or high level European coaches or players who watch lots of YouTube. Everyone tells you to hit the ball with your legs or body or other such stuff even they can't do it. That some people do it better than others is rarely about other being right or wrong but is usually related to a lot of things like practice hours and who you learned to hit the ball from, how long you have played etc. Lots of people in clubs discuss technique they haven't put in the time to master. My ball impact is usually thick and my trajectories low when I take the ball early, the main issue that I saw that Gucci had was his timing was different. He hadn't trained early timing and thick contact as a big part of his game, which I suspect was heavily influenced by the older ball and relatively less training. Taking the ball later, he was used to spinning up the ball consistently and did not have the training hours or raw power or footwork to win points like Yassun as such ball striking at a higher level relies on lower trajectories. There is a fitness and anticipation level required to play TT like that and it is easy to downplay it when you haven't tried it. Yassun likely played to a higher level where you had to use such weapons on a regular.basis. If Gucci was doing it wrong, why was he suddenly able to adapt in the space of one show? That doesn't strike you as surprising given your experience with TT? It is more likely that some of what he was doing was putting on a show for didactic purposes. Nothing to do with his true level as a player. That's my speculation for the day.
Edited by NextLevel - 03/12/2019 at 12:11pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point. Disputing the details. You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.
Edited by NextLevel - 03/12/2019 at 12:10pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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Of course you need to be familiar with the technique. But I think that is a basic requirement. No one thinks that a person that never played a backhand topspin can play a correct backhand topspin in the first session that they are taught the technique.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Familiar as I use it means you have done it before, you just don't do it all the time. So you watched the video and you agree with Blahness?
Edited by NextLevel - 03/12/2019 at 2:08pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Slowhand
Super Member Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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Good video, and thanks to mickd for the translation. Looks to me like Gucchy was performing for didactic purposes as NextLevel suggests. The coaches I know at a similar level (assuming he's at least US 2400 equivalent) can all execute multiple different techniques for most strokes. The Chinese coaches can do Euro style forehands and vice versa, etc., maybe not at competition level but more than good enough for demonstration purposes.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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You underestimate the power of the human mind, I've taught multiple people some tips and they mostly get it in the first session like ttgold mentioned. I recently taught someone how to execute a tomahawk serve (she has never done it before in her whole life), it only took 10 mins before she was getting the movement right and half an hour before she was getting good quality spin on it. I taught another to incorporate pronation in the FH topspin and the results was similarly immediate. For me I got the hip rotation concept almost immediately after watching the video and was able to incorporate it the next playing session (I have been doing it like Gucchy previously). Maybe it's the advantage of scientific, clear-cut detailed explanations rather than vague explanations?
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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You know how I feel about evidence and videotape. Let's leave it at that.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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So you don't think it's possible for someone to incorporate something new into their existing stroke in a single session? Even the OP's videos frequently showcase that (you'll see the learner fix their movement in pretty much one session most of the time). Of course doing it against a controlled feed is one thing, to make it match ready is another. But yeah let's agree to disagree here... I think there's plenty of videos going around, but I doubt videos will convince you. According to your interpretation the OP would have to be faking a wrong stroke, pay the coach to "correct" his "wrong" stroke to put on Youtube...since there's no way he's able to correct his stroke in one session! We're not talking about learning an entire FH topspin from scratch but rather modifying certain components of it, it's really not that difficult imo...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1010 |
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Hi all, just a quick random thought, the hips thrust on top of the legs work reminds me of the "starting slow-finishing fast" idea. Those 2 ideas integrate so well, the hips thrust is the ultimate quick last action from the lower body on top of a legs work that still built momentum exponentially.
Note: in case of a too jerky weight transfer, the overlap with the hips thrust is huge and that's wrong as I end up as a blob jumping off the cement (no Gerflor in my basement). It takes focus to time the hips thrust correctly and then the reward is there. How much time to make it natural? you got me! I got a nice bone to chew on tho. |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Thanks Tt gold. It'll be great if you could describe how you feel about the body rotation since you obviously do it very well on your FH! Do you also feel the same way about having a active hip thrust?
Edited by blahness - 03/12/2019 at 10:54pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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His stroke wasn't that wrong, and the correction wasn't that significant. That's my point but because you actually think his stroke was wrong and the correction was significant, you don't seem to get it.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Not exactly sure why you are in such an argumentative mood with all the posters here which has completely derailed the thread topic. What is a significant change? It's a fairly subjective statement. Why is the OP's videos considered a minor correction and Gucchy's stroke correction a significant one that he couldnt have achieved in a single session?
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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The Op's video had nothing to do with Guccy's video. You were the one who said that Guccy wasn't doing it right. My point is that Guccy was doing it right *enough*, to the point that Yassum could fix him very quickly, and that the issue was really Guccy not training. Your interpretation was more of the "oh, if someone isn't play like Ma Long, they don't know how to play" variety.
The video in the OP is nothing special - people do this all the time to varying degrees. And there are many good players who don't do it intensely. Part of the reason I argue is that I feel a lot of people like to stay stuff about TT without making it clear what their experience with what they are talking about is. You are telling us that this technique is improving your game - do you have video of this to share?
Edited by NextLevel - 03/13/2019 at 12:46am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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vik2000
Super Member Joined: 06/29/2018 Location: Behind you Status: Offline Points: 264 |
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Still waiting for salty FruitLoop to offer his advice on core strength training. Apparently, according to this dude, you should avoid core strengthening exercises like plank, side plank, oblique v up and etc. Can't wait for him to impart his wisdom on his training routine. Hey, why not post a video of your loop drive? Since P90x AB X Ripper seems laughable to you, you must have done some other effective core training exercises that enabled a more powerful loop. We got plenty of people here wanting to learn the most efficient way to strengthen their core.
Edited by vik2000 - 03/13/2019 at 1:27am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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The OP's video is similar in concept to Gucchy's video with the body rotation mechanism. Maybe wrong was too strong a word, a better one would be suboptimal. The question of course is why you felt that you had to be so dismissive about a video that the OP kindly uploaded to help others. Is it complete bullshit and misleading? If no why did you have to show up with such a poor attitude? Maybe for you it's basic technique and nothing special but as I've noted earlier probably 90% of club players are not getting it right, including Gucchy at the very beginning. In fact I'm not the only one who said that, there were quite a few posters in that thread who noted the same thing. Btw, a lot of club players know that they have to use the body rotation and the legs, but talk is cheap. If they had truly understood it, why are they not applying it? Or maybe it's a case of us thinking we understood it but actually not, and "basic" videos like this force us to reevaluate our understanding and improve our game.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Slowhand
Super Member Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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Thanks for the video. It's very helpful, especially because we can see how your feet are not planted as you do the hip turn. This is crucial to avoiding knee problems from the twisting action.
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Yes. It is worth doing an invisible hop above the ground if you have to to get this effect of not being planted in my experience.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1010 |
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It reminds me the gap between what people are and what they think they are. If that gap is too big, people are delusional (maybe too strong a word for this) and not understood; if it is null, people are unable to evolve and remain immobile. When that gap is reasonable, we project ourselves in the future in a healthy way, putting up front a goal that is reachable. There is a connection to be made with "the inner game of tennis" (the player yelling at themselves shows that their expectations are too big compared to their capabilities and that the gap between their abilities and what they deliver is too big at the moment?). This thread underlines all that and I believe we are all on the same side, if that was not the case we would not be enjoying posting here. Is the devil in the details then? YOU BETCHA!!!
Edited by fatt - 03/13/2019 at 1:17pm |
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.
In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed. Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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This is 100% correct. That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery, you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage. This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly. That is the problem with internet expertise.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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racquetsforsale
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I'd say when there is time for an aggressive forward weight transfer, more weight gets loaded onto the back leg and the back leg definitely pushes hard, thrusting and rotating the hips and upper torso. When there's no time, the weight is more evenly distributed between the legs to begin with, but the back leg still needs to brace against the hip and upper torso rotation, as governed by physics.
To the Chinese at least, the ideal way to control your forehand stroke mechanics requires using the hips and upper torso to guide the hitting arm in both the back swing and forward swing. To a large degree, the hip turn also controls your follow through and recovery/reset footwork after a forehand, as can be seen during 2 point, 3 point forehand drills
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Hip thrusting to get more forehand power without turning your feet and staying off your heels when turning can lead to a lot of knee pain because of the torque. Jump a bit if you want to hip thrust. It is energy consuming like most things on good TT. Even close to the table you can hit straight arm loops. The elbow doesn't have to stay close to the body on the forward swing. The real issue is to what degree you can maintain balance doing so. It's not the speed of the rotation but the balance and the recovery.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Ieyasu
Super Member Joined: 07/18/2015 Location: DPR Kalifornia Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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Concerning that "invisible" hop you mention, it seems to me the women players do this a lot. Ie., they seem to take a bounce after almost every shot. See this short vid of Ito, for one single instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G322RFQ2_Yw&feature=youtu.be Whereas the men players, it appears to me, do a heck of a lot less bouncing between shots. Their feet seem far more planted. I could take some guesses as to why this may be, but can you tell me why? It puzzles me as to why women appear to have significantly different footwork. (I realize men tend to play further back and hit with more power.)
Edited by Ieyasu - 03/13/2019 at 5:00pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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The hop I am speaking about is a bit different but related. I am talking about hopping to rotate the body on the backswing and then hopping back on the forward swing to hit the ball as opposed to just rotating on the balls of your feet. I think they are related in some cases bit different. For your question, my theory is that it is more important to play with balance when you are closer to the table and the hop is almost a necessity if you want to repeatedly hit the ball hard close to the table and stay in balance. I don't think there is a significantly different requirement for balance I was watching FZD vs XX recently and what we noted was how they were hopping all the time. But maybe they go off balance with power more often so there is no reasonable recovery. Or they go back to a distance where power is more important and hopping will not reset balance. The funny thing is that most of this hopping and resetting as far as I know seems to be largely unconscious and is done by just about every good player trained in balance and footwork. I have been trying to figure out whether it is worth learning for a serious adult player and how to learn it without doing 6 months of footwork classes and hoping it happens. Again, I am neither a high level player or coach. Just speaking about my experiences trying to figure this stuff out as well as the kinds of things I have heard talking with other players and some coaches. There is also the issue that when women play one way and men play another, we have try to assume that it has little to do with gender style preferences. It may or may not but let us assume it does not for now. Unless someone who has experience coaching lots of boys and lots of girls is willing to comment from their experiences doing so.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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