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rating guess again |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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The serve/receive level is super high from both imo. The penholder guy did a side-under chiquita and knows how to vary both of them, which is a super advanced technique. Also there were quite a few rallies there, and amazing counterloops. There was even a long fishing + counterloop rally too. I think your 2100 players will absolutely get smoked by these guys.
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idk
Silver Member Joined: 07/11/2011 Location: Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 790 |
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chiquita returns aren't really a "super advanced" technique and are commonly seen in the 2000-2100 range. i did not see the amazing counterloops you speak of at least nothing that would shock me at that level. as someone else said, choice of shots and quality dont always tell the whole story for level
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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See point at 1:56 which was a full blown counterlooping rally, I would love to see any 2000 level player attempt this at this kind of quality.
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idk
Silver Member Joined: 07/11/2011 Location: Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 790 |
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majority of 2000-2200 level adult players would be able to have a counter looping rally like that one time in a match, but it seems you are still missing the point. shot quality and 1 counter looping rallying in an entire match tell little of the story Edited by idk - 12/06/2020 at 1:41am |
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Skyline
Premier Member Joined: 07/01/2007 Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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That "full blown counterlooping rally" starts with a block and a fish. It looks more like an exhibition style rally to me nothing impressive at all.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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If they can do that, there's nothing a 2000-2100 level player would be able to really hurt them. Shot quality is in fact one of the primary determining factors of playing level.
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Lightspin
Super Member Joined: 07/11/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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It is really hard to tell how good someone is from watching a match. Until you feel what kind of spin they produce on their serve or the force behind their loop guessing the rating won't be an easy task. If you go to youtube you can find all kinds of matches between professionals where one player for whatever reason destroys the other player. Watching that game may make the loser look like they are rated low but in fact they are quite good. I have seen a few 2700 players lose games 11-1 or 11-0. They looked bad simply because they were playing someone who was 2800+.
If you didn't know who these people were, how good would they look? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRs4eJqZiX8 |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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+1 exactly, which is why I like to look at shot quality. Those so called "consistent blockers" will find themselves in huge trouble when faced with loops of these quality (look at the bounce after the opening loop, you can tell that there's shitloads of spin on them)... They look like they're receiving poorly and blocking poorly but a lot of it is due to the quality from their opponent.
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Skyline
Premier Member Joined: 07/01/2007 Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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If these players play at a simillar level shouldn't they be able to deal with each others shots ?
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Not necessarily. The higher level you are, the more the offensive player has an advantage. Like what I mentioned earlier, even Ma Long vs Xu Xin can be an ugly 3rd ball festival, same like other matchups like Ryu Seung Min vs Ma Lin with almost no rallies and tons of "unforced" errors....
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Valiantsin
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2020 Location: OFallon Status: Offline Points: 261 |
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yeah, need to play with them to make a guess.
Or at least with somebody)))
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Skyline
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this is true but imho your definition of shot quality to define playing level is wrong. to define level Shot quality has more to do with the consistency that you can score with a certain type of shot, it's not about having an amazing forehand with great technic that scores you 2 out of 11 points.
Edited by Skyline - 12/06/2020 at 8:02am |
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astaroyd
Super Member Joined: 11/02/2020 Location: hebemes Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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here's another video.
people talk about the consistency of 2200... these guys are probably 2250 by now and none of the points go beyond 3 or 4 shots, with more than 50% of the points reaching just 2 or 3 shots total. Edited by astaroyd - 12/06/2020 at 8:43am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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They rarely miss their FH loop...and that is also because of the immense amount of spin they put on the ball. Anyone can hit hard, but to spin a ball so intensely is a skill not many posses, and is usually a good indicator of playing level. Usually, more topspin = more consistency.
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pitigoi
Super Member Joined: 06/19/2015 Location: Illinois, USA Status: Offline Points: 257 |
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All such threads should mention how much time the players have played each other before. You look better against someone you know very well.
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idk
Silver Member Joined: 07/11/2011 Location: Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 790 |
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again you seem more impressed by their shot quality than you should be. it is pretty good but nothing that would be a surprise at the 2400+ level you estimate, and shot quality must always be considered equally with consistency and other factors of which theirs is terrible. in another post you equate consistency with blocking which is confusing. as said, "full blown counterlooping rally" is not a good description of that point at 1:56 and most people in the 2000-2200 range could easily do that. it was not impressive at all. these guys are prime examples of all or nothing players who are limited by their obsession with trying to crush the ball, or as another user said "trying to look like the CNT without the footwork or fundamentals". very common in the 1900-2200 range. |
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idk
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these guys are 2150-2200 which is in the range of most estimates posted here.
Edited by idk - 12/06/2020 at 3:53pm |
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idk
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lgxb, or anybody else know how a 1900 chinese rating converts?
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astaroyd
Super Member Joined: 11/02/2020 Location: hebemes Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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I actually counted the points. here are the results: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- serve return error: 21 times unfortunately at 2200 this is the most likely thing to happen ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- serve return achieved - next ball missed: 16 times third most likely thing to happen this would look like... serve-push-loop missed or... server-loop-block missed ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- serve return achieved - next ball achieved - next ball missed: 18 second most likely thing to happen in general this would look like.... serve-push-loop-block missed ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- serve return achieved - next ball achieved - next ball achieved - next ball missed: 11 times these are not very common in general this would look like.... serve-push-push-loop-block missed ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- serve return achieved - next ball achieved - next ball achieved - next ball achieved - next ball missed: 3 times these are very rare. could look like serve-push-push-loop-block-loop missed ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- serve return achieved - next ball achieved - next ball achieved - next ball achieved - next ball achieved - next ball missed: 1 time this actually happened because there was a net in the point ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- so really this is still the level for primorac + mark v .... just put the ball on the table. if you want longer rallies it starts at 2350 or 2400 really
Edited by astaroyd - 12/06/2020 at 11:29am |
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idk
Silver Member Joined: 07/11/2011 Location: Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 790 |
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if we had the full match video of the original post, the counts would probably look the same
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astaroyd
Super Member Joined: 11/02/2020 Location: hebemes Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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this pattern stays the same at least until 2400
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idk
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not entirely true. do you play in the USA?
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astaroyd
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actually the pattern is not that similar. serve return error for the chinese: 0 (21 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball missed: 3 times (16 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball missed: 13 (18 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball missed: 9 (11 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball missed: 7 (3 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball missed: 3 (1 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball missed: 1 (none for US) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct -next ball missed: 1 (none for US) ------------------------------------------------------- if both matches lasted 70 points (real duration of the US match) it would look like this: serve return error for the chinese: 0 (21 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball missed: 6 times (16 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball missed: 26 (18 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball missed: 18 (11 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball missed: 14 (3 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball missed: 6 (1 for US2200) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball missed: 2 (none for US) serve return correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct - next ball correct -next ball missed: 2 (none for US) Edited by astaroyd - 12/06/2020 at 12:24pm |
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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I disagree with he idea that the rally’s get longer the higher the level goes. A lot depends on the players style. When one player is a good service/receive player, the match is bound to have few longer rallies. Then you have players that are good at blocking, or players that just don’t have the last bit of power in their to to win in 1-3 shots, which they make up for with being able to play more lower quality shots on the table. The higher you go up in levels, the higher the quality of shots, tactics etc. gets. Higher level players also have problems returning serves, just as lower level players do. It’s always the same thing. I feel you had problems with serves of players that were around 1800 and you improved and encounter less and less difficulties when returning their serves, it’ll show in you rating. But then you’re playing against 2000 level players. Yes your return game got better, but their service has more quality, which starts the same circle again.
Edited by Tt Gold - 12/06/2020 at 12:41pm |
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astaroyd
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the difference is the first two balls after serve. serve receive and an eventual 3rd ball attack. in 2200 50% of the points end before this 3rd ball attack is done successfully. in pros and also the chinese video most of the points reach this area of 3rd ball successful attack. from there yes, it will never go much further (in average).... even at world class level.
Edited by astaroyd - 12/06/2020 at 1:54pm |
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idk
Silver Member Joined: 07/11/2011 Location: Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 790 |
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do you play tournaments in the US, at these levels? seems like the international crowd gets a very wrong idea of certain levels of play when all they see is various highlight videos.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Precisely, and this is why shot quality (serve, receive, loop) is so important in terms of measuring playing level.
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astaroyd
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I just analyse the videos.... the hard cold data. I avoid my memories, my imagination, my wonderings because it gets pretty subjective. if you have other videos I can analyze please share them.
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idk
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how would you compare the serve and receive in the OPs video to that in the match between the two 2400 juniors posted earlier on this thread? Edited by idk - 12/06/2020 at 3:31pm |
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lgxb
Super Member Joined: 09/10/2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 298 |
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Sorry, unfortunately I don't.
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