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Focus on spin production |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Posted: 04/11/2021 at 6:49pm |
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Hmm interesting concept. I'm gonna try it out, thanks for sharing!
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maur1010
Member Joined: 02/07/2021 Location: nsw aust Status: Offline Points: 41 |
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But it should be relaxed and natural, any excessive lag in the arm
(especially when done intentionally) is basically going to emphasize arm
power over the legs. Again I totally disagree with you. Look at the pendulum serve for example. Many pros on the ball toss going up move the bat arm forward. This is done intentionally. This action delays the backswing as much as possible till the ball is dropping and allows the process of what Brett Clark calls anti drift to occur. The bat is still going back before the whip as the body is going forward. The result is a fast whip action and a better quality serve. Adding a component of anti drift to normal shots actually allows the transfer of leg power to increase arm speed totally effortlessly. Pros are starting to do this in serves. I predict over time more pros will increase the amount of anti drift into normal shots. I actually watched a player in the top 10 in Australia intentionally try to add more anti drift to his backhand and forehand in training. The extra spin and power was easy to see. I am actually having weekly training with Brett Clark. We are working on adding a component of anti drift to my shots. Its amazing how powerful this concept is. Cutting edge stuff. Edited by maur1010 - 04/11/2021 at 5:17pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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It is true that there is a subsequential acceleration process (body accelerates first, then upper arm, lower arm and then wrist/pronation), to achieve max racket speed at contact. It's because these elements take different amounts of time to achieve max speed. But it should be relaxed and natural, any excessive lag in the arm (especially when done intentionally) is basically going to emphasize arm power over the legs.
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maur1010
Member Joined: 02/07/2021 Location: nsw aust Status: Offline Points: 41 |
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Take a look at any ma longs video of topspin against backspin in slow motion. It is clear to me that the body starts to rise as the bat is still going back in the take back. In ma longs topspin against block there is a little gap of the body coming forward before the bat. To actually have the body and the arm in total sync requires you to use tension in your arm which is opposite to Chinese technique. It looks stiff and not fluid. Shadow swing with no lag and shadow swing with a small lag and you can see what i am talking about. Edited by maur1010 - 04/10/2021 at 4:52pm |
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DonnOlsen
Gold Member Joined: 11/15/2008 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1751 |
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Hi,
This topic is susceptible to excessive decomposition in analysis. Furthermore, the ever-infuriating incompetent prevailing table tennis vocabulary insinuates itself here. The force of pragmatism demands acknowledging the wisdom and deep understandings imbedded in the best application of the Chinese national coaching system. With that as a backdrop: As to an overall attribute to characterize stroke play within the expressions from the Chinese, the very consistently used term is translated as "explosiveness." Explosiveness is any extremely rapid chain of reaction that releases force. One of the great contributors to table tennis insight in this era (and one of my primary mentors) is Michel Gadal. As I have often found, Michel, better than anyone else, presents a valuable perspective with superior broad-based applicability. Following him: Using the basic structure of the relevant body parts as reference points (fingers, hands, hand-wrist axis, forearm, etc.) for stroke expression, the player uses the appropriate composite of parts based on the specific circumstance the player is addressing. In general, the more time available within the circumstance, the more parts are employed to form the stroke mechanism. This view is then coupled with the notion of explosiveness. Explosiveness is applied to the set of parts selected by the player for each stroke mechanism expression. Very high on the list of qualities that distinguish standards of play is the quality of shots produced. Two attributes stand out in the definition of quality in this context; ball speed and ball spin, both represented in quantifiable ways. In all the cases in which the player is the source of these two influences on the ball, racket speed is the means to the upper scale. The way to attain the higher echelons of racket speed is explosiveness. Thanks.
Edited by DonnOlsen - 04/08/2021 at 8:07am |
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Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Michael Maze, Timo Boll, and a few others have quite jerky strokes. Arm being in sync with the body rotation is a key tenet of the CNT FH though. It forces you to loosen and reduce the contribution from the arm, and power through from the weight transfer in the legs. A whippier acceleration implies much more action happening in the arm.
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maur1010
Member Joined: 02/07/2021 Location: nsw aust Status: Offline Points: 41 |
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''I tried the jerky whippy strokes before, I feel like it's more unstable
and potentially injurious than the ones where the arm is completely in
sync with the body rotation. '' I do not agree with this comment. The more your body supports your arm movement, the more relaxed your arm can be. The stroke when I get the correct mechanics feels supper smooth, effortless and powerful. To me the word jerky implies incorrect stroke technique. Show me a pro with jerky stokes? If your arm is in sync with your body you need to use more effort in your arm. I feel this could lead to more injuries not less as there is more muscle tension in the arm.
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astaroyd
Super Member Joined: 11/02/2020 Location: hebemes Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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not in usa.
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Ah. Where are you? Each time I've gone to a major metropolitan area of play (NYC, NJ, Boston, SanFran) most players use BTY products (ALC and Tenergy) at the average club level.
Playing in rural areas, I see a little more diversity, but again, fewer players. |
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DonnOlsen
Gold Member Joined: 11/15/2008 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1751 |
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This video of Harimoto is a demonstration of the subtle treachery that the sport holds. That backhand is Tenergy 05, for sure. It has spring sponge (maybe with boosting?) that is ejecting the ball forward in the context of superb technique for the rubber being used, a springing forward of which this specific equipment is, of some degree, the source. This matching of technique to equipment receives insufficient attention. Whereas it is in a prominent position within the Chinese coaching system, its status recedes to much lower attention elsewhere. Thanks.
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Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
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astaroyd
Super Member Joined: 11/02/2020 Location: hebemes Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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not really. from what I've seen most players don't use very fast equipment. for example "primorac carbon" I've seen very few people using it. also tenergy, let alone dignics... they don't seem to be that popular in the normal club scene (probably because of the price).
Edited by astaroyd - 04/07/2021 at 5:42am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I tried the jerky whippy strokes before, I feel like it's more unstable and potentially injurious than the ones where the arm is completely in sync with the body rotation.
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maur1010
Member Joined: 02/07/2021 Location: nsw aust Status: Offline Points: 41 |
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I feel you need very high arm speed so you can get the crack sound along with high spin. Most of us non pro players have a lower arm speed so if we get the crack it has low spin so the ball is low quality and usually goes long. My coach keeps enforcing the correct body movement is critical and telling me the timing of the forward swing is also critical. The delay of the body moving in one direction with the arm moving in the opposite direction before the forward action is a huge key. So in the backhand the body is rising as the bat is still going back. Then the bat has to catch up with the body like a whip. So this results in a high speed arm action. One can actually delay the backswing to increase this whip action. This is what I have been working on in my lessons. Edited by maur1010 - 04/06/2021 at 10:13pm |
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JohnnyChop
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2010 Location: Toronto Status: Offline Points: 1159 |
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I have only experienced the crack sound with carbon blades so I always thought is the sound when the carbon are engaged. However I feel like the results is mixed sometimes, sometimes it feels like I bottomed out the sponge and it produce a low quality loop. Either way I do not like the sound much...
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729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1
Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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For me I think if I'm bottoming out rubbers consistently its leading to a loss of control which means I need a harder rubber. This is why it's difficult to play with soft rubbers on the FH for most players with good body mechanics.
Edited by blahness - 04/03/2021 at 8:31am |
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Robin.w
Gold Member Joined: 12/02/2017 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1343 |
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the crack sound only comes when the ball fully penetrate the sponge and impact on the blade so the wood, carbon fiber, and the core ply work together to generate speed and spin .There’s Chinese word to describe this “透板”. There is a joke about this, “ no matter how expensive is your blade,if you can’t “透板”,you are just playing with sponge and wasting money.”
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maur1010
Member Joined: 02/07/2021 Location: nsw aust Status: Offline Points: 41 |
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I had an interesting discussion about the spin to power ratio with my coach. I watched him practice the other day and his balls had a sharp crack sound and they had huge speed along with high spin. He explained that the sound is what you hear in the training halls of the pros but not in any usual club play. I actually managed to make a few balls have a similar crack sound when I had perfect body mechanics supporting a very fast swing along with perfect arm timing on my backhand. These balls were the fastest highest spin backhand balls i had ever done in my life. I do not think it has anything to do with the type of rubbers at all. According to my coach its all about using your body correctly to support a fast swing that allows a lot of spin along with a high level of power. Edited by maur1010 - 04/01/2021 at 11:23pm |
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blahness
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It's a double edged sword in general, the spinnier a rubber is, the more spin sensitive it is, and you need even more skills to properly control it, especially in terms of reading and adjusting to incoming spin.
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Plenty of casual players are using ZLC and Dignics 05. And although BTY gear like Dignics and Tenergy produce MORE spin from poor mechanics than their competitors, they don't magically give those casual players the ability to produce monstrous and powerful spin. I think as well, that since the plastic ball, big spin is now not just about having the technique and touch, but also a level of physicality to produce significant power. Power is easily observable in how hard the ball rips or dives when it lands on the opponent side. I suspect that the faster you hit the ball, the more spin you need to get an equal effect on the dive. In any event, some equipment is more demanding to play with but also will produce greater effect in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. But did you ever notice that most players fall into the trap of ever "faster and spinnier" equipment to help them get an edge against regular opponents? Edited by icontek - 03/29/2021 at 10:21pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yeah he probably can play with the pros here But yeah, it's a very rare opportunity to witness a real master of the sport at close range. I learnt a great deal just watching and observing him. He seems like a private person so I'll probably skip that part....but he's won some regional competitions back in China.
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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Quality practice is priceless honestly.
Not so good for the player thats 500 or 700 points better haha 😂 but having someone turn up of that level creates a real buzz in a small level non pro club.. Its kind of them to show that willing to hit with people for a while. Every loop and idea can be sponged cracking job. 👍👍👍👍 Have you found out where he played yet btw or his name? Nice blah.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Even when blocking you have to be on your toes and use your body to control the ball without much backswing, and wrap around the ball to ride out the spin. I learnt a bit watching Dan block against Ovtcharov. If you don't do any of these it'll be impossible to keep the loops on the table because they're just that spinny lol...
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Lol yeah I think if he's in the US he's gonna be one of those untouchable 2500-2600 players... Compared to him we are all just scrubs lmao
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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Counter drive or counter loop. I remember watching kanak and lily practice in person, and what surprised me the most was just how low all of their shots were over the net. One was doing attacks and the other active blocks, but the speed was quite fast. If that's the height you're talking about, I can see why they have to counter loop the incoming attacks! Difficult to slap for sure, but angled blocks would be possible borrowing the incoming power. Like oh sang eun for example.
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obesechopper
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Medium level? Your generosity is strong!
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blahness
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No idea haha, I'll take what I can get
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astaroyd
Super Member Joined: 11/02/2020 Location: hebemes Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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so why is such a high level player playing in a normal club with medium level players?
Edited by astaroyd - 03/26/2021 at 5:11pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I asked him about my strokes etc and he is saying it looks good but I obviously lack practice which is why the timing and feeling and footwork is bad
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blahness
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Once you get to his level of spin and trajectory control, there's just no way to slap the topspin. The topspin makes it dip hard post bounce and you simply do not have a clear line of sight to the net. You could get lucky and slap it in, but have an accuracy rate of like 10%... The most you can do is placement blocking tbh. I block with a slight countertopspin movement and wrap around the ball in general which helps with control, so after a while I was able to block quite stably and give him a good workout too haha.
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kindof99
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If play with him everyday, you will adjust to his spin as well.
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