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icontek View Drop Down
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This is FPS Doug

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Intermediate TT :: Ratings Posted
    Posted: 04/08/2011 at 12:46am
I'd like to start this thread with the central idea that intermediate table tennis (out of the basement, into the club) still has a great diversity of playstyles (in spite of the ITTF).
 
And if I can get enough interest from some of my opponents, I'd like to update this thread every few weeks with more Youtube Videos of local players.

John vs Scott
Game 1
Game 2

It would be useful to me if you post what strengths/weaknesses a player possesses along with that number.

Please have fun,
be honest,
and be civil.


RESULTS POSTED TUESDAY :  April 12th

John is US1611
The gentleman without the hat plays a defensive push/block/counter game based around his backhand. He does very well against a variety of opponents, below, at and even above his level. Stiga Super Carbon with Sriver FX 2.1 FH and Inspirit 1.8mm BH.

Scott is US1434
The gentleman in the hat plays short pips both sides and plays a push/pickhit game based around his forehand. He has mixed results against people at his level, slightly above and below, and is sensitive to "style matchups". Avalox P500 with Speedy Soft DTeCS and Juic 889 with 1.8mm sponge (but usually a Schlager Carbon with 1.5mm pips).

 
Rating Quiz Winners:
Results calculated by total player points compared with guess totals, 25 bonus points if you spotted the higher rated player in the match or 50 if you guessed the rating differential between players within 50 pts.
3045 = Real Total

1st Place : tomkat 3050 (plus a bonus for figuring out which player was stronger)
3 Way Tie for 2nd/3rd Place :
pongcrazy 3000
professorjay 3000
davidz 2975 + 25

Honorable Mention :
ZingyDNA for noticing that Scott's FH% isn't enough to win, the lazy backhand (that actually IS better with inverted) and that John was "100-200" points higher.

Points awarded to people who are numerically closest to the actual player rating.
Additional points will be awarded to members who correctly identify player strengths and weaknesses.

EDITS:
These are complete games, not highlight reels. Uploaded right from my phone to YouTube. I just stopped and started my phone recording in between points.

(next matches in this series later this week)

BONUS VIDEO:
Sampling of Maine Players (US1200-1900+) playing:

US1260.RC1042 . Virtuoso AC : K1 + EL-P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 1:17am
With the exception of the forehand topspin from the guy with the black cap, both of them have very unorthodox but very effective strokes. I enjoy the other guy's topspin shots. It looks like he's giving the ball a fade with hair clippers LOL. I imagine one has to be somewhat seasoned to successfully beat these guys with their weird shots.

1500 for both of their gameplay abilities, for the time being... until other 1500 players with textbook strokes become accustomed to their style and beat them consistently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 1:50am
Both have developed incorrigible style. If they are going to pay a coach, most money - if not all - would go to un-learn what they have learned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penhold_Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 3:05am
  • You both cannot do a good backhand, you're both just pushing and shoving the ball back and forth. You both have terrible looping skills, none at all really.
  • You both cannot even do a good forehand smash.
  • You both seem to have poor grips and techniques.
  • Additionally, you both have poor untrained footwork it was horrible.
Things to work on:

  1. Proper stroke
  2. Proper forehand techniques,
  3. Forehand looping
  4. Proper smash techniques
  5. Proper backhand strokes
  6. Proper backhand looping
  7. Blocking
  8. Pushing
  9. Flicks (forehand and backhand)
  10. Chopping (Not exclusively)
  11. Return of service
  12. Correct footwork (important)
  13. Offensive game strategies (Need to look at some other offensive players)


If you both are defensive players, immediately switch to a offensive game of table tennis, you will do a lot better, than shoving the ball around, with chops, blocks, and weak smashs. The footwork was just terrible. Oh and lastly take on fitness and exercise you guys aren't exactly in shape.

Disapprove


Edited by Penhold_Boy - 04/08/2011 at 3:11am
------------------
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Grip - Penhold
Blade: Ma Lin Extra Offensive
FH: Adidas P7
BH: Nittaku Hammond Pro Beta

Old Setup:
FH: DHS Skyline 3 NEO
BH: Butterfly Sriver G3 FX



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rawrtje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 3:14am
For what it was, they played pretty well, I thought. And if nothing else, at least they keep the ball on the table much longer (and better?) than many. That being said, once a modicum of spin is present on the ball, they are not doing so well anymore...playing against stronger players would solve a lot of that.

Edit: Watching the videos again, I've a strong feeling these players could cause upsets right up to...1200 USATT or so. It's refreshing not to see senseless loop attempt after another in these lower levels. 


Edited by rawrtje - 04/08/2011 at 3:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rawrtje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 3:25am
Originally posted by Penhold_Boy Penhold_Boy wrote:

  • You both cannot do a good backhand, you're both just pushing and shoving the ball back and forth. You both have terrible looping skills, none at all really.
  • You both cannot even do a good forehand smash.
  • You both seem to have poor grips and techniques.
  • Additionally, you both have poor untrained footwork it was horrible.
Things to work on:

  1. Proper stroke
  2. Proper forehand techniques,
  3. Forehand looping
  4. Proper smash techniques
  5. Proper backhand strokes
  6. Proper backhand looping
  7. Blocking
  8. Pushing
  9. Flicks (forehand and backhand)
  10. Chopping (Not exclusively)
  11. Return of service
  12. Correct footwork (important)
  13. Offensive game strategies (Need to look at some other offensive players)


If you both are defensive players, immediately switch to a offensive game of table tennis, you will do a lot better, than shoving the ball around, with chops, blocks, and weak smashs. The footwork was just terrible. Oh and lastly take on fitness and exercise you guys aren't exactly in shape.

Disapprove

I'm not sure if your heavy criticism is all that warranted. Do you have "proper" and "correct" technique yourself? And does not having it really limit you all that much? Non-textbook styles are to be found well up into the 2000's. 99% of us are never going to be pro, or even look pro for that matter. I would argue that effectiveness is superior to "right technique" for us. Maybe I am wrong - feel free to correct my possibly errant thinking! 

Icontek: If critique is what you're looking for, perhaps you could tell us a bit more about the players and their desired styles - that way, it would be easier to tailor our comments to their individual situations...as it is now, I feel inclined to compare them to Ma Long and point out all the things they are doing wrong that I myself am hopelessly inept in Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 4:04am
Advanced ping pong I'm afraid. The problem is, there is no way to take their technique forward, unless you stick a sheet of something 'anti social' in to the equasion, and that is a limited option.
 These guys clearly love playing, and have spent some time on the table, but in a coccooned world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glassmaple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 5:20am
Looks like they are ~1300-ish? Feels like they're playing with hardbat or with short pips with minimum spin. Usually players like this have trouble against spinny short backspin serves and somewhat spinny but slow loops. The way they are playing suggests that they are very familiar with each other's play so a lot of power shot comes out because they kind of expect the return?

I think more short game will be very useful in playing against them or as a way to improve. I'm not that good myself, but just saying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ninglei23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 5:49am
they play like the players in the club that I play.haha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 6:07am
900-1200 depending on how they handle spin, etc... Guy with the hat has a decent forehand-ish shot.

Edited by kenneyy88 - 04/08/2011 at 6:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abdulmuhsee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 6:20am
Honestly, there is no way to rate anyone without actually going to tournaments and seeing the cold, hard results.  Something may or may not look correct, impressive, or workable, but I've often watched professional matches and thought, "Bah, I can beat that guy," but then watched a player who looked absolutely terrible and got creamed by him.

I think these posts criticizing them are, if anything, discouraging.  I like seeing these kinds of videos, and to everyone shooting them down, shame on you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote popperlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 7:01am
I apologize, I saw the video again. And it is a full match. Hat player: 1415 usatt. No Hat: 1422 This is lots of fun, I can't wait to find out their ratings. 


Edited by popperlocker - 04/08/2011 at 6:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 8:53am

Both play well.  I guess their rating is around 1500. 

My reason is very simple. Both can chop and block well. Each one has his own attacking skill. 
Player without hat attacking skill is more stable, and player with hat is more powerful.
 
Estimated rating : Player without hat  1500,  Player with hat 1475.


Edited by davidz - 04/10/2011 at 10:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin_2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 9:08am
The short Jeans player has a nice BH punch. He looks like a pushblocker in the making :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kyle90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 11:02am
they're 1000-1100 max. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 11:30am
Suggestions from thread (will reveal rating next Tuesday) and clarification (those are complete games, not highlight reels) put into initial post.

Not surprisingly, you can tell a lot about what people see of the game and how they understand it from the more detailed posts.

If anyone who just put a number in wants to go back and edit their post and explain what they saw that helped them arrive at the conclusion. Feel free to point out things like stroke choice, effectiveness of the shot, placement, footwork, consistency and tactical issues or strengths with each player.

I have more than 30+ matches against both players, so I'll chime in with my feedback on Tuesday as well.  I intend to use the feedback from this thread as a way to improve my tactics versus some the players whose videos I will post. One of my goals is to better exploit their weaknesses, and lure  them to use their strengths to help set me them up.

Come tournament time, my mantra is:
"Help me help you beat you".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 12:28pm
I would say that at the tournaments i would not expect them to rise above approx. 1100 plus minus 100 - but it really depends on what kind of game the other players will do against them, and depends on the tournaments, of course etc. With all that in mind... 1100 (in Quincy, MA).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote addoydude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 12:39pm
I estimate the one with hat 1256, the one without 1189.  Did I win?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 12:43pm
I think those 2 guys are way better than 1100!  If the guy without the hat had some long pips on 1 side and could twirl it a little I think he could give a lot of 1400 - 1500 players trouble.  The guy in the hat also has a pretty good FH when it lands.  I think these guys would be very competitive in the 1300 - 1400 level as they both keep the ball on the table.  There are a few players at my club that don't look very good as they have bad strokes, footwork, serves, etc. but they are 1700 and above.  Main thing they do is keep the ball on the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 1:23pm
My observations:
They keep the ball on the table well, but because neither of them seem to use much spin that becomes easier.  The guy in the jeans was a major flaw in his push game.  The 1st time he pushes, he steps towards the ball like he's supposed to, but he never steps back.  Knowing this, if you push to his forehand and then to his backhand he will have some trouble (there was at least 1 example in the match).  Neither of them move and their pushes are way too high and can easily be attacked.  If either of them were to play a looper (w/ some consistency) they would be in big trouble because all the serves were long while lacking in spin and/or speed.  Before even commenting on their level I would have to see how they handle a larger variety of serves.  I would surprised if they didn't have some trouble with shorter spinny serves.
They do keep the ball on the table pretty well though.  Can they do that against more offensive minded players though?  If yes, then they can count on unforced errors at the lower levels and beat a lot of people.

Positives:  they keep the ball on the table pretty well.  Backhand punch seems to be something they both deal w/ well.
Things they need to work on:
Serving.
Footwork (they didn't move much)
Stroke fundamentals.
Moving the ball around better - they have a tendency to just push it back to the same area over and over again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote professorjay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 1:50pm
I'll put the guy with the hat at 1525, the other guy at 1475.

Clearly these guys are having fun, and plan on keeping it that way instead of picking up proper technique or coaching.  I've seen plenty of players with their own unique style go far.  Mostly experience helps these guys develop more touch with the strokes they have and they can handle things just as well as other people around their level who have proper strokes.  Around the 1800 level is when you see a convergence towards more textbook techniques (although they may still be fairly poorly refined), but there are always exceptions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 4:16pm
I obviously need to play in a tournament to get a good idea of ratings.  If those guys are around 1500, I can't imagine what my rating would be.
I'll have to make a video soon and see what you guys think.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 4:37pm
Am I the only one who thinks the guy w/o a hat is clearly better? His BH is very consistent. Even though they split the games, the other guy's FH attack % won't keep up to win the match... I don't really think either of them should use carbon blades, though. I think the guy w/o a hat is prolly in the 1400s and the other guy is 100-200 pts lower. Both of them could be anywhere between 1100 and 1600, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 6:16pm
You never get a good feel for people who play each other all the time, I mean training partners who are playing each other typically look better than they are because they typically have glaring weaknesses that neither play to otherwise they would work on them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2011 at 6:36pm
Those players just used to each other. I dont know ratings in US but I think it's 1350 average.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chu_bun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/09/2011 at 2:06am
I also think it's hard to tell because it seems they know each others game so well.  If they are this consistent again other styles, they should be better than 1500.  In a tournament, I'd rather play a typical 1600 level looper than either of these guys.  So  I'll guess the one without hat 1650 and the other 1550.  I believe their skills are more or less the same, but having a strong backhand is good for matching up against other players (most are right-handed). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/09/2011 at 10:54am
Really enjoying all the input in this thread. It's really interesting how some players are able to pick out things about players just from video; I can tell who is used to scouting opponents at tournaments!

See main post for a little bonus.

Next week I will add footage; at least 2 more players, .

US1260.RC1042 . Virtuoso AC : K1 + EL-P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongcrazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/09/2011 at 11:51am
with hat - 1290
w/o hat - 1365
* although it looks like the hat dude probably beats the no hat dude*
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sahiggs100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/09/2011 at 11:55am
I have serious doubt about either one of these players making it over 1300.  I am figuring about 1200 for both give or take about 40.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chu_bun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/09/2011 at 6:15pm
You should post videos of these two playing against more "conventional" players.  Their ratings are relative to people they likely run into at tournaments not to a few of their best buddies.
Clipper Wood, Sanwei Gears FH, Sanwei T88-I BH.
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