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Overcoming the Backspin PJT #2 : 3 Kinds of Advice

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nicholasy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03/19/2019 at 4:03am
https://youtu.be/CCLzg7O5TZk

Overcoming the Backspin Project #2 : 3 Kinds of Coaching

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2019 at 4:21pm
what does "not folding the wrist" mean?  not using the wrist at all? or just not cocking it?

Edited by tom - 03/19/2019 at 4:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2019 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

what does "not folding the wrist" mean?  not using the wrist at all? or just not cocking it?

Look at 1:13 into the video. Both players have their wrists folded. And then a few seconds later the coach does it again to emphasize don't fold the wrist. It looks to me like he is only addressing the folding of the wrist. I don't think he is addressing wrist cocking in that sequence, but perhaps the OP can definitively clarify.

At 45 seconds when the coach is demonstrating brushing technique you can see some wrist movement, but it is definitely not a folding action. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2019 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

what does "not folding the wrist" mean?  not using the wrist at all? or just not cocking it?

Look at 1:13 into the video. Both players have their wrists folded. And then a few seconds later the coach does it again to emphasize don't fold the wrist. It looks to me like he is only addressing the folding of the wrist. I don't think he is addressing wrist cocking in that sequence, but perhaps the OP can definitively clarify.

At 45 seconds when the coach is demonstrating brushing technique you can see some wrist movement, but it is definitely not a folding action. 
yes OP please elaborate.  Ieyasu, thanks.  I misused the terms.  When I usually say cocking , I mean it (wrongly) on an off axis way - which is what you (and the OP?) mean by folding.  Then how does one fold the forearm?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2019 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

what does "not folding the wrist" mean?  not using the wrist at all? or just not cocking it?

Look at 1:13 into the video. Both players have their wrists folded. And then a few seconds later the coach does it again to emphasize don't fold the wrist. It looks to me like he is only addressing the folding of the wrist. I don't think he is addressing wrist cocking in that sequence, but perhaps the OP can definitively clarify.

At 45 seconds when the coach is demonstrating brushing technique you can see some wrist movement, but it is definitely not a folding action. 
yes OP please elaborate.  Ieyasu, thanks.  I misused the terms.  When I usually say cocking , I mean it (wrongly) on an off axis way - which is what you (and the OP?) mean by folding.  Then how does one fold the forearm?
The translation is confusing. I THINK what he means by folding the forearm is the angle that the forearm and upper arm make is reduced when swinging forward. In other words, the entire arm although not exactly straight, is closer to 180 degrees than 90 degrees at the end of the student's backswing (against backspin balls), but when swinging forward that angle reduces, ie., becomes closer to 90 degrees. In order to do that one needs to move/snap/accelerate the forearm, so that the angle at the elbow narrows. That is my guess as to what folding the forearm means. Sorry.... hard to describe in words.

If you watch the vid where folding the forearm is discussed, the coach nods his head in approval as the student's arm bends when swinging forward, instead of keeping his arm straight.


Edited by Ieyasu - 03/19/2019 at 6:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2019 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

what does "not folding the wrist" mean?  not using the wrist at all? or just not cocking it?

Look at 1:13 into the video. Both players have their wrists folded. And then a few seconds later the coach does it again to emphasize don't fold the wrist. It looks to me like he is only addressing the folding of the wrist. I don't think he is addressing wrist cocking in that sequence, but perhaps the OP can definitively clarify.

At 45 seconds when the coach is demonstrating brushing technique you can see some wrist movement, but it is definitely not a folding action. 
yes OP please elaborate.  Ieyasu, thanks.  I misused the terms.  When I usually say cocking , I mean it (wrongly) on an off axis way - which is what you (and the OP?) mean by folding.  Then how does one fold the forearm?
The translation is confusing. I THINK what he means by folding the forearm is the angle that the forearm and upper arm make is reduced when swinging forward. In other words, the entire arm although not exactly straight, is closer to 180 degrees than 90 degrees at the end of the student's backswing (against backspin balls), but when swinging forward that angle reduces, ie., becomes closer to 90 degrees. In order to do that one needs to move/snap/accelerate the forearm, so that the angle at the elbow narrows. That is my guess as to what folding the forearm means. Sorry.... hard to describe in words.

If you watch the vid where folding the forearm is discussed, the coach nods his head in approval as the student's arm bends when swinging forward, instead of keeping his arm straight.
  I am confused between usage of folding for the forearm and the wrist.  I guess the OP will explain it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 2:52am
Is the coach a guy? I thought it was a girl. Am I the only one that thinks that? Sorry if I'm wrong.

I watched the video to check, and I think by not folding the wrist, the coach means not using flexion (ie keeping your arm and wrist straight, not bending it so that it creates an angle less than 180 degrees between your wrist and arm). I conclude that based on the movement she did at 1:17 (it's covered by OP's racket a little, but you can still see her do it). Also, she says the word "drop" in Chinese. I can't make out the rest, but from that I'd infer she means not to drop your wrist down.

By folding the arm, I'm pretty sure he means to go from a straighten arm to a bent one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicholasy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 8:39am
That's my misunderstanding and mis-translation. I'm sorry for that. You're right.

BTW, The coach is a girl. 


Edited by nicholasy - 03/20/2019 at 8:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 9:13am
If I wrote a book on TT, I would eliminate "brushing" the ball from TT vocabulary and replace it with "turning" the ball. Especially for looping backspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 9:37am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

If I wrote a book on TT, I would eliminate "brushing" the ball from TT vocabulary and replace it with "turning" the ball. Especially for looping backspin.

That does not make sense to me.  Could you explain further.  Is it turn like in turn a car or more like turn a doorknob or something else?  Always interested in different ways to explain stuff to students.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 9:52am
Originally posted by nicholasy nicholasy wrote:

That's my misunderstanding and mis-translation. I'm sorry for that. You're right.

BTW, The coach is a girl. 
I knew the coach was a girl even though her hair is very short.  By not folding the wrist, does the coach mean not to use the wrist at all or not to fold it (too early)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 10:51am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by nicholasy nicholasy wrote:

That's my misunderstanding and mis-translation. I'm sorry for that. You're right.

BTW, The coach is a girl. 
I knew the coach was a girl even though her hair is very short.  By not folding the wrist, does the coach mean not to use the wrist at all or not to fold it (too early)?

I took it to mean to make the wrist component as small as possible, the main action was the forehand. My question is whether this is just a beginning technique and LATER after you learn this you add wrist snapping, or not?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

If I wrote a book on TT, I would eliminate "brushing" the ball from TT vocabulary and replace it with "turning" the ball. Especially for looping backspin.

That does not make sense to me.  Could you explain further.  Is it turn like in turn a car or more like turn a doorknob or something else?  Always interested in different ways to explain stuff to students.

Mark

Sometimes we call it "shaping" the ball where I was born.  The idea is that your racket should rapidly go on a trajectory that forms a curve around the ball as opposed to hitting into it. It can do both with thick contact b it the focus should be on the racket path not on trying to hit ball with flat contact.  Brushing focuses too much on the quality of the contact while turning in my opinion focuses on what the racket path should be trying to do as well as the contact.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/20/2019 at 12:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 12:48pm
https://youtu.be/P5FNMhTGK34

 above clearly explains the wrist usage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2019 at 10:39pm
Sorry, tom. I was just trying to be polite by not flat out saying "dude, it's a girl" since leyasu kept using "he" and you were continuing the conversation with him.

@vanjr Using the wrist isn't wrong, it's just wrong if you drop the wrist like what the coach showed in the OP's video. The link tom added above demonstrates it nicely! I definitely can't do that though hehe.
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