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Please Correct my Backhand Loop against backspin

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    Posted: 04/22/2015 at 10:33pm
Please show me my mistakes, thank you very much!
https://youtu.be/0RBfPObaxww




Edited by dvdbka - 04/22/2015 at 10:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2015 at 10:37pm
The video doesn't work. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvdbka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2015 at 10:40pm
please copy link and paste to your browser because I can't insert link into forum!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argothman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2015 at 11:09pm
Edit: You're right, embedding did not work.


Edited by Argothman - 04/22/2015 at 11:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 12:15am
The first thing that jumped out is that your foot position is very far from what is commonly taught.  Having your left foot way back behind your right and your body turned well to the left is not really a good idea.  You should be much more square to the table.  Standing as you do would make transitioning to a forehand very interesting.

The second thing that caught my eye is where you are doing the drill.  I prefer to have my students work on their backhands from the general vicinity of the backhand corner.  

The third thing I noticed is that you appear to be pretty flat-footed - especially your left foot while strokoking.  Try to get more weight on your toes and keep your feet a bit lighter.  Make a point of moving a bit for each ball.  You really need to finish in a balanced, ready (for a forehand OR backhand) position.  If that robot had (remarkably) sent a ball to your forehand side, you'd have had zero chance at making a decent shot.

Your actual stroke isn't bad.  You accelerate through the ball pretty nicely and usually finish nice and high.  It is tough to be sure from the angle, but you might want to catch the ball a touch later (closer to your body).  

In the 38mm days some two wing loopers used strokes a bit like yours.  BUT, and this is a big but, they were generally from fairly far off the table, which gave them more time.  

The modern backhand topspin is with your feet pretty square (roughly perpendicular to the path of the ball).  Some even use a slightly forehand (in your case right foot a bit farther back than the left) oriented stance.

I like your stroke and think that fixing your positioning will help a lot - both with your actual backhand topspin and with whatever returns appear.

bes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zheyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 12:23am
just relax your wrst and elbow. your consistency will increase. good try!Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote comodoensis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 1:07am
actually your stance are good enough, but there is one thing that makes your mistakes fatal, it is shown when sometimes you push the ball instead of looping it. flat footed.

instead of pushing it, you should get your body into position and loop it. if that behavior continues, it will develop a lazy habit : waiting for a 'bait' instead of chasing it. you have to chase the 'bait'

secondly, try to minimize your backswing, since you loop it close to table. minimize it, and you will be able to recover faster and be ready for the next shot. it seems you're doing backhand loop the common way : ball contact right on the middle-top side of the ball. maybe you can try to brush it a bit on the side, almost like where people made the ball contact when doing banana flick, with a bit bigger swing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 1:33am
I'll take a turn out this.

First, I assume that the robot was shooting underspin balls? Your stroke is very vertical which would be appropriate for underspin, but you also turn over your wrist during the stroke, which would not be correct against underspin.

Second, I think your stance is reasonable against underspin. Generally, you need to be square to the table for near-to-the-table strokes against topspin. However, putting your left foot back is suitable for both looping off-table and also for looping against backspin.

You do seem to be missing the point in having your left foot back. The idea is to give your body room to twist at the waist. In this kind of stroke, it looks more like a FH stroke with a turn and a weight transfer.

Unlike the others, I'm not really concerned about you being flatfooted, but I am concerned about a lack of movement. You bounce on your feet between strokes and the purpose of that is to make it easier to make quick, small adjustments. However, you don't actually move from your position. I suggest that you have the robot give you a wider stray of balls and then you should make sure you move for each ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvdbka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 3:14am
Thank everyone for your advice. But I want to ask you, should I twist my body to accelerator into ball? How to get more power on backhand loop?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 4:09am
Originally posted by dvdbka dvdbka wrote:

Thank everyone for your advice. But I want to ask you, should I twist my body to accelerator into ball? How to get more power on backhand loop?

That was part of what I was trying to say. And it's really the only reason for putting your left foot back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 5:30am
Originally posted by dvdbka dvdbka wrote:

Thank everyone for your advice. But I want to ask you, should I twist my body to accelerator into ball? How to get more power on backhand loop?


You stance should not have your left foot back at all...

Stand normally with a FH bias stance with your right foot back...

You will gain power by loading your left leg, squaring your shoulders to the table and making your stroke from there. Checkout MA Long and Zhang Jike...

Your stoke is ok. You just need to minimise the follow-through for quick recovery, so you are ready for a follow-up shot...

Don't do the Kreanga lash. Contact and timing are your allies...

When you set your robot to oscillation you will appreciate maintaining a FH bias stance as you go from FH to BH to FH across the table...

Enjoy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 6:42am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 6:46am
This is the best video by someone with a similar technique to yours.  I think if you change your foot positioning, you will be mostly fine.  Turning the wrist over is fine - just be careful to not accelerate forward into the ball and change your racket angle or to finish with your wrist closed.  You need to time the backswing as that is where the most significant part of the upward acceleration with the wrist come from and you are mostly doing a good job of that.


BTW, it's my favorite shot.



Edited by NextLevel - 04/23/2015 at 6:50am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 7:21am
Other than your stance which has been mentioned, I think there's an issue with weight transfer. I don't see enough left to right body turn in your stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 8:57am
you should add a  bit more spring action  of your knees when you contact the ball like extending your knees a bit more. also, on your follow through, your wrist should not flexed because you will have inury if you keep doing that. at the beginning of the stroke your wrist should be flexed up until the time of contact on the ball and then after the follow through the wrist comes back to its normal position
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvdbka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 10:27am
Thank you! Should I need to lift elbow or drop it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 11:42am
Not sure if i'm correct, but you should contact the ball in the "side" where the downward spin is less. There you can add more forward motion for power and your contact is much thicker(more accurate) as compared to what you are doing in the video. My 2cents
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 11:45am
You should lift elbow up to your chest level only
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 1:01pm
Saw a young provincial player from China play today. His BH stroke is simply awesome. First time I saw anyone execute his BH loop this perfect and powerful in person. Not just in drills but game play as well. He beat everyone convincingly including an invincible ex-provincial LP/SP penholder.

I found his stroke very much a carbon copy of ML. I think ML's stoke is smoother than Yan An and the other guy in the video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 1:43pm
The stance is not the problem or your swing it's where you are practicing the shot from. You are hitting BH loops from the FH side of the table.  You can't get power because your torso rotation is restricted, meaning you can't use your torso rotation to help add power to your shot because the direction you are trying to hit doesn't allow for it. Put simply unless you are really out of position you shouldn't be BH looping from there. Those should be FH loops. Point the robot towards the BH corner and you will be able to swing much better. That should solve almost all of your problems as your basic stroke looks fine. Make another vid while looping from the BH corner and we can go from there.

Edited by V-Griper - 04/23/2015 at 1:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvdbka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2015 at 11:53pm
I changed angle of the ball and post video forehand-backhand loop, please show me mistakes :)
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhu4GH4K6bM[/YOUTUBE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhu4GH4K6bM


Edited by dvdbka - 04/24/2015 at 12:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2015 at 4:53am
Now... Your BH looks sweet. ...

Leg loading, the full works ...

You never told us that you and Ma Long train together ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2015 at 9:10am
Much better-

Not sure if you are trying to emulate Ma Long or not but his usage of the NPA(non playing arm) is relatively sophisticated. I would not start off using that on the FH and BH until your leg and torso mechanics are more established. For now just keep the left arm close to your chest on the FH and a little bit out to the side on the BH. 

The only major thing you are missing is the execution of a left side hip extension to add power from the legs/torso to the shot. This is the action of opening up the left hip joint as if you are standing up from a chair. In fact you could use a chair to help you get the idea. Put a chair behind with a pillow or cushion on it. Squat down as if you are going to sit but lightly touch the cushion/chair with your left butt cheek. When the ball comes move as if to get up from the seated position. as you are rising begin your arm swing. Be careful not to go out of order, you must initiate the standing action before you begin your arm swing. When you have the two actions blended together into one smooth action then you can take away the chair. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvdbka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2015 at 9:45am
Thank you! Are you talking about Backhand loop?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTFrenzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2015 at 10:06am
1. You are too far away from the table, stand a bit closer to achieve better timing

2.You are moving your feet too much (something like a constant tremble) , you are hyperactive, just relax and keep your feet steady on the ground while your executing the stroke and try to rotate as in the video below

3. You rush too much, wait for the ball to come into your belly and then execute the stroke. Try to stand in a position which allows you to brush the ball in the sweet spot of your paddle, this is a common mistake that many beginners do damaging your technique.

4.Bear in mind that you have to rotate the wrist and forearm keeping the shoulder steady. Most of the times you move your shoulder upwards thus losing timing and momentum

5. Sometimes your stroke follow through is too high (check 4. about the shoulder again), this will result in much slower recovery after your shot

Other than that your wrist action is very good. Follow what other users told you about your stance and distance from the table and check the ttedge video of nextlevel and this one also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFeP8C2PM_g

For me these are definitely the best videos about BH against backspin

Try to compare in slow motion, your stroke in your video with the stroke of the chinese coach and william henzell's (the player in the ttedge video) stroke to get an idea. Practice with more consistency, slow the pace of your stroke a bit and set a goal to hit 10 perfect slow or semi slow BH in a row. Once you achieve it with perfect technique, then and only then you are ready to try to execute the stroke with more speed. Dont try to perfect your technique at full speed and dont try to kill the ball just put lots of spin on it! 

Its impossible to  perfect yout technique at full speed and you will get disappointed easily, take it step by step and you will improve much much faster :) :)

Good luck and have fun !




Edited by TTFrenzy - 04/24/2015 at 10:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2015 at 10:07am
The backhand looks quite a bit better! Your left foot position looks better.  You still need more weight transfer and still don't make small corrections for different (occasionally short mainly) balls consistently.  But it looks a lot better!

Your forehand is pretty clean, but I don't see good weight shift.  You seem to be leaning too far to the right - with almost all weight on right foot throughout.  You left foot is often in the air (moving back and right) at the end of your stroke - when half, or a bit over half your weight should be on it.  If you have oscillation capability, a drill with one ball to middle and one near the FH corner could help with your balance on finish.  It will be tough to move right powerfully with your left foot in the air.

I'd really like to see you post a video of you doing A FH, BH, FH... drill.  Ideally do one with the same (plenty) time between balls as the last one, then do it again with less time between balls.  Easiest (technically) would be to send one ball to middle (or FH side) then the next to the BH corner.  If your robot doesn't oscillate or oscillate predictably you can send all balls to BH and step around for the forehand.  But the stepping around footwork is not trivial, so this is more difficult.

Keep up the hard work!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2015 at 11:37am
Originally posted by dvdbka dvdbka wrote:

Thank you! Are you talking about Backhand loop?

Actually the principle applies to both sides as the hip extension is the primary source of power for bigger shots. Other people refer to this as a "weight transfer" so I am essentially saying the same thing. But you are mainly talking about your BH loop so right now focus on your left hip. Right now you fold or bend at the hip but then you just sit there and use your arm to hit the shot, you should use the leg/hip/torso which can add much more power to the shot. 



Edited by V-Griper - 04/24/2015 at 11:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2015 at 11:43am
TTFrenzy linked an excellent example. I will embed the vid.

The thing I am referring to in my previous post is the slight squatting down and then the legs push off. For a moment you see the upper torso straighten out a little. That motion pulls the arm up and through the shot. The reference is the angle formed between the left shoulder/left hip/left knee. That angle closes as you prepare for the shot then opens when you are executing the shot.

Note- I did not want to go into issues regarding your grip but you need to know that the one used in this vid example is different than the one you use. Most people have the opinion that the grip does not matter but I have come to different conclusion. If you want to hit certain kinds of strokes, FH or BH, then you need to know which grip is optimal for that kind of stroke and weigh the advantages and disadvantages. This is just my opinion thought so take into account what others have to say.




Edited by V-Griper - 04/24/2015 at 11:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2015 at 1:49pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/24/2015 at 2:10pm
You are too far away from the table and the ball is likely to drop in a real match.  BH timing is not easy so most BH strokes are small and close to the table strokes because it is hard to use your backhand to track high or low balls when they are no longer in your strike zone.  So stay closer to the table when using your backhand vs. backspin.
 
There is too much upward motion in your shot  partly because you are so far back and not enough use of the core to generate power.  Remember that the stroke that you are using is based on whipping the ball.  Other people have made many comments that are similar to the above and they have said other things that I would say as well so I don't want to repeat everything.
 
But I will say exactly what TTFrenzy said: When working improving a stroke or even a new stroke, always start SLOW and focus on SPIN over speed.  With practice, your timing will improve and as your timing improves, your ability to change contact for speed over spin or vice versa as well as your overall power will improve.
 
What you want to do (which is what I do instead of a grip change) is to either bend your wrist backwards slightly or simply relax your wrist and let it fall backwards and face you (see what William Henzell does when demonstrating the difference between the backspin and the block loops).  Then bend downwards so that the racket is closed. When you come up and execute the stroke, the racket will naturally open and you can finish open and let the wrist go all the way through.
 
This video shows the right way to use your wrist if you are looping with a neutral grip.  This video is for BH vs. topspin but the idea is the same.  Good luck.
 


Edited by NextLevel - 04/24/2015 at 2:13pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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