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Intermediate TT :: Ratings Posted

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Topic: Intermediate TT :: Ratings Posted
Posted By: icontek
Subject: Intermediate TT :: Ratings Posted
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 12:46am
I'd like to start this thread with the central idea that intermediate table tennis (out of the basement, into the club) still has a great diversity of playstyles (in spite of the ITTF).
 
And if I can get enough interest from some of my opponents, I'd like to update this thread every few weeks with more Youtube Videos of local players.

http://www.usatt.org/history/rating/history/Phistory.asp?Pid=41037 -
http://www.usatt.org/history/rating/history/Phistory.asp?Pid=41037 - John vs http://www.usatt.org/history/rating/history/Phistory.asp?Pid=3505 - http://www.usatt.org/history/rating/history/Phistory.asp?Pid=3505 - Scott
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNUpcwpg2Qk&feature=related - Game 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsdCrkeE8pE&feature=related - Game 2

It would be useful to me if you post what strengths/weaknesses a player possesses along with that number.

Please have fun,
be honest,
and be civil.


RESULTS POSTED TUESDAY :  April 12th

John is US1611
The gentleman without the hat plays a defensive push/block/counter game based around his backhand. He does very well against a variety of opponents, below, at and even above his level. Stiga Super Carbon with Sriver FX 2.1 FH and Inspirit 1.8mm BH.

Scott is US1434
The gentleman in the hat plays short pips both sides and plays a push/pickhit game based around his forehand. He has mixed results against people at his level, slightly above and below, and is sensitive to "style matchups". Avalox P500 with Speedy Soft DTeCS and Juic 889 with 1.8mm sponge (but usually a Schlager Carbon with 1.5mm pips).

 
Rating Quiz Winners:
Results calculated by total player points compared with guess totals, 25 bonus points if you spotted the higher rated player in the match or 50 if you guessed the rating differential between players within 50 pts.
3045 = Real Total

1st Place : tomkat 3050 (plus a bonus for figuring out which player was stronger)
3 Way Tie for 2nd/3rd Place :
pongcrazy 3000
professorjay 3000
davidz 2975 + 25

Honorable Mention :
ZingyDNA for noticing that Scott's FH% isn't enough to win, the lazy backhand (that actually IS better with inverted) and that John was "100-200" points higher.

Points awarded to people who are numerically closest to the actual player rating.
Additional points will be awarded to members who correctly identify player strengths and weaknesses.

EDITS:
These are complete games, not highlight reels. Uploaded right from my phone to YouTube. I just stopped and started my phone recording in between points.

(next matches in this series later this week)

BONUS VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv0abDjjzWk&feature=autofb - Sampling of Maine Players (US1200-1900+) playing:



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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42



Replies:
Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 1:17am
With the exception of the forehand topspin from the guy with the black cap, both of them have very unorthodox but very effective strokes. I enjoy the other guy's topspin shots. It looks like he's giving the ball a fade with hair clippers LOL. I imagine one has to be somewhat seasoned to successfully beat these guys with their weird shots.

1500 for both of their gameplay abilities, for the time being... until other 1500 players with textbook strokes become accustomed to their style and beat them consistently.


Posted By: Imago
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 1:50am
Both have developed incorrigible style. If they are going to pay a coach, most money - if not all - would go to un-learn what they have learned.


Posted By: Penhold_Boy
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 3:05am
  • You both cannot do a good backhand, you're both just pushing and shoving the ball back and forth. You both have terrible looping skills, none at all really.
  • You both cannot even do a good forehand smash.
  • You both seem to have poor grips and techniques.
  • Additionally, you both have poor untrained footwork it was horrible.
Things to work on:

  1. Proper stroke
  2. Proper forehand techniques,
  3. Forehand looping
  4. Proper smash techniques
  5. Proper backhand strokes
  6. Proper backhand looping
  7. Blocking
  8. Pushing
  9. Flicks (forehand and backhand)
  10. Chopping (Not exclusively)
  11. Return of service
  12. Correct footwork (important)
  13. Offensive game strategies (Need to look at some other offensive players)


If you both are defensive players, immediately switch to a offensive game of table tennis, you will do a lot better, than shoving the ball around, with chops, blocks, and weak smashs. The footwork was just terrible. Oh and lastly take on fitness and exercise you guys aren't exactly in shape.

Disapprove


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------------------
Current Setup:
Grip - Penhold
Blade: Ma Lin Extra Offensive
FH: Adidas P7
BH: Nittaku Hammond Pro Beta

Old Setup:
FH: DHS Skyline 3 NEO
BH: Butterfly Sriver G3 FX





Posted By: rawrtje
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 3:14am
For what it was, they played pretty well, I thought. And if nothing else, at least they keep the ball on the table much longer (and better?) than many. That being said, once a modicum of spin is present on the ball, they are not doing so well anymore...playing against stronger players would solve a lot of that.

Edit: Watching the videos again, I've a strong feeling these players could cause upsets right up to...1200 USATT or so. It's refreshing not to see senseless loop attempt after another in these lower levels. 


Posted By: rawrtje
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 3:25am
Originally posted by Penhold_Boy Penhold_Boy wrote:

  • You both cannot do a good backhand, you're both just pushing and shoving the ball back and forth. You both have terrible looping skills, none at all really.
  • You both cannot even do a good forehand smash.
  • You both seem to have poor grips and techniques.
  • Additionally, you both have poor untrained footwork it was horrible.
Things to work on:

  1. Proper stroke
  2. Proper forehand techniques,
  3. Forehand looping
  4. Proper smash techniques
  5. Proper backhand strokes
  6. Proper backhand looping
  7. Blocking
  8. Pushing
  9. Flicks (forehand and backhand)
  10. Chopping (Not exclusively)
  11. Return of service
  12. Correct footwork (important)
  13. Offensive game strategies (Need to look at some other offensive players)


If you both are defensive players, immediately switch to a offensive game of table tennis, you will do a lot better, than shoving the ball around, with chops, blocks, and weak smashs. The footwork was just terrible. Oh and lastly take on fitness and exercise you guys aren't exactly in shape.

Disapprove

I'm not sure if your heavy criticism is all that warranted. Do you have "proper" and "correct" technique yourself? And does not having it really limit you all that much? Non-textbook styles are to be found well up into the 2000's. 99% of us are never going to be pro, or even look pro for that matter. I would argue that effectiveness is superior to "right technique" for us. Maybe I am wrong - feel free to correct my possibly errant thinking! 

Icontek: If critique is what you're looking for, perhaps you could tell us a bit more about the players and their desired styles - that way, it would be easier to tailor our comments to their individual situations...as it is now, I feel inclined to compare them to Ma Long and point out all the things they are doing wrong that I myself am hopelessly inept in Wink


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 4:04am
Advanced ping pong I'm afraid. The problem is, there is no way to take their technique forward, unless you stick a sheet of something 'anti social' in to the equasion, and that is a limited option.
 These guys clearly love playing, and have spent some time on the table, but in a coccooned world.

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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: glassmaple
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 5:20am
Looks like they are ~1300-ish? Feels like they're playing with hardbat or with short pips with minimum spin. Usually players like this have trouble against spinny short backspin serves and somewhat spinny but slow loops. The way they are playing suggests that they are very familiar with each other's play so a lot of power shot comes out because they kind of expect the return?

I think more short game will be very useful in playing against them or as a way to improve. I'm not that good myself, but just saying.


Posted By: ninglei23
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 5:49am
they play like the players in the club that I play.haha

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Yinhe V-14
FH:Xiom Vega Pro
BH:Donic Baracuda


Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 6:07am
900-1200 depending on how they handle spin, etc... Guy with the hat has a decent forehand-ish shot.


Posted By: abdulmuhsee
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 6:20am
Honestly, there is no way to rate anyone without actually going to tournaments and seeing the cold, hard results.  Something may or may not look correct, impressive, or workable, but I've often watched professional matches and thought, "Bah, I can beat that guy," but then watched a player who looked absolutely terrible and got creamed by him.

I think these posts criticizing them are, if anything, discouraging.  I like seeing these kinds of videos, and to everyone shooting them down, shame on you.


Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 7:01am
I apologize, I saw the video again. And it is a full match. Hat player: 1415 usatt. No Hat: 1422 This is lots of fun, I can't wait to find out their ratings. 


Posted By: davidz
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 8:53am

Both play well.  I guess their rating is around 1500. 

My reason is very simple. Both can chop and block well. Each one has his own attacking skill. 
Player without hat attacking skill is more stable, and player with hat is more powerful.
 
Estimated rating : Player without hat  1500,  Player with hat 1475.


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PG7 (Skyline 2, LKT XP)
YEO (Skyline 2, Skyline 3)


Posted By: Tinykin_2
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 9:08am
The short Jeans player has a nice BH punch. He looks like a pushblocker in the making :-)

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Member of Single Ply Club. Shakehand, Kauri wood by American Hinoki, 1-ply 7mm. FH> Gambler Reflectoid. BH> Yasaka Mark V


Posted By: kyle90
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 11:02am
they're 1000-1100 max. 


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 11:30am
Suggestions from thread (will reveal rating next Tuesday) and clarification (those are complete games, not highlight reels) put into initial post.

Not surprisingly, you can tell a lot about what people see of the game and how they understand it from the more detailed posts.

If anyone who just put a number in wants to go back and edit their post and explain what they saw that helped them arrive at the conclusion. Feel free to point out things like stroke choice, effectiveness of the shot, placement, footwork, consistency and tactical issues or strengths with each player.

I have more than 30+ matches against both players, so I'll chime in with my feedback on Tuesday as well.  I intend to use the feedback from this thread as a way to improve my tactics versus some the players whose videos I will post. One of my goals is to better exploit their weaknesses, and lure  them to use their strengths to help set me them up.

Come tournament time, my mantra is:
"Help me help you beat you".



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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42


Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 12:28pm
I would say that at the tournaments i would not expect them to rise above approx. 1100 plus minus 100 - but it really depends on what kind of game the other players will do against them, and depends on the tournaments, of course etc. With all that in mind... 1100 (in Quincy, MA).


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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member

Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...


Posted By: addoydude
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 12:39pm
I estimate the one with hat 1256, the one without 1189.  Did I win?

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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
H3 NEO / 388-D1


Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 12:43pm
I think those 2 guys are way better than 1100!  If the guy without the hat had some long pips on 1 side and could twirl it a little I think he could give a lot of 1400 - 1500 players trouble.  The guy in the hat also has a pretty good FH when it lands.  I think these guys would be very competitive in the 1300 - 1400 level as they both keep the ball on the table.  There are a few players at my club that don't look very good as they have bad strokes, footwork, serves, etc. but they are 1700 and above.  Main thing they do is keep the ball on the table.

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Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade
Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH
Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH


Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 1:23pm
My observations:
They keep the ball on the table well, but because neither of them seem to use much spin that becomes easier.  The guy in the jeans was a major flaw in his push game.  The 1st time he pushes, he steps towards the ball like he's supposed to, but he never steps back.  Knowing this, if you push to his forehand and then to his backhand he will have some trouble (there was at least 1 example in the match).  Neither of them move and their pushes are way too high and can easily be attacked.  If either of them were to play a looper (w/ some consistency) they would be in big trouble because all the serves were long while lacking in spin and/or speed.  Before even commenting on their level I would have to see how they handle a larger variety of serves.  I would surprised if they didn't have some trouble with shorter spinny serves.
They do keep the ball on the table pretty well though.  Can they do that against more offensive minded players though?  If yes, then they can count on unforced errors at the lower levels and beat a lot of people.

Positives:  they keep the ball on the table pretty well.  Backhand punch seems to be something they both deal w/ well.
Things they need to work on:
Serving.
Footwork (they didn't move much)
Stroke fundamentals.
Moving the ball around better - they have a tendency to just push it back to the same area over and over again.


Posted By: professorjay
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 1:50pm
I'll put the guy with the hat at 1525, the other guy at 1475.

Clearly these guys are having fun, and plan on keeping it that way instead of picking up proper technique or coaching.  I've seen plenty of players with their own unique style go far.  Mostly experience helps these guys develop more touch with the strokes they have and they can handle things just as well as other people around their level who have proper strokes.  Around the 1800 level is when you see a convergence towards more textbook techniques (although they may still be fairly poorly refined), but there are always exceptions.


Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 4:16pm
I obviously need to play in a tournament to get a good idea of ratings.  If those guys are around 1500, I can't imagine what my rating would be.
I'll have to make a video soon and see what you guys think.




Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 4:37pm
Am I the only one who thinks the guy w/o a hat is clearly better? His BH is very consistent. Even though they split the games, the other guy's FH attack % won't keep up to win the match... I don't really think either of them should use carbon blades, though. I think the guy w/o a hat is prolly in the 1400s and the other guy is 100-200 pts lower. Both of them could be anywhere between 1100 and 1600, though.


Posted By: Jonan
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 6:16pm
You never get a good feel for people who play each other all the time, I mean training partners who are playing each other typically look better than they are because they typically have glaring weaknesses that neither play to otherwise they would work on them.


Posted By: garwor
Date Posted: 04/08/2011 at 6:36pm
Those players just used to each other. I dont know ratings in US but I think it's 1350 average.

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http://stonitenis.rs/equipmentreviews" rel="nofollow - Equipment database

Yinhe MC-2 FL
fh: Xiom Vega pro
bh: Xiom Vega pro

Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services!


Posted By: chu_bun
Date Posted: 04/09/2011 at 2:06am
I also think it's hard to tell because it seems they know each others game so well.  If they are this consistent again other styles, they should be better than 1500.  In a tournament, I'd rather play a typical 1600 level looper than either of these guys.  So  I'll guess the one without hat 1650 and the other 1550.  I believe their skills are more or less the same, but having a strong backhand is good for matching up against other players (most are right-handed). 


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Clipper Wood, Sanwei Gears FH, Sanwei T88-I BH.


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 04/09/2011 at 10:54am
Really enjoying all the input in this thread. It's really interesting how some players are able to pick out things about players just from video; I can tell who is used to scouting opponents at tournaments!

See main post for a little bonus.

Next week I will add footage; at least 2 more players, .



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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42


Posted By: pongcrazy
Date Posted: 04/09/2011 at 11:51am
with hat - 1290
w/o hat - 1365
* although it looks like the hat dude probably beats the no hat dude*


Posted By: sahiggs100
Date Posted: 04/09/2011 at 11:55am
I have serious doubt about either one of these players making it over 1300.  I am figuring about 1200 for both give or take about 40.

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Blade: Nexy Lissom
FH: Gambler Outlaw Black
BH: RITC 802 Short Pips Red

Please Don't feed the EJ's!


Posted By: chu_bun
Date Posted: 04/09/2011 at 6:15pm
You should post videos of these two playing against more "conventional" players.  Their ratings are relative to people they likely run into at tournaments not to a few of their best buddies.

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Clipper Wood, Sanwei Gears FH, Sanwei T88-I BH.


Posted By: sahiggs100
Date Posted: 04/09/2011 at 7:29pm
There are more factors to consider anyway, like how high of a tentative rating they receive.  If they receive a pretty high tentative rating and play bad, even losing all their matches they will still get a decent rating.

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Blade: Nexy Lissom
FH: Gambler Outlaw Black
BH: RITC 802 Short Pips Red

Please Don't feed the EJ's!


Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 04/09/2011 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks the guy w/o a hat is clearly better? His BH is very consistent. Even though they split the games, the other guy's FH attack % won't keep up to win the match... I don't really think either of them should use carbon blades, though. I think the guy w/o a hat is prolly in the 1400s and the other guy is 100-200 pts lower. Both of them could be anywhere between 1100 and 1600, though.
I thought the one with the hat had a lazy backhand especially late in the games and lost the game because of it, he would realy benifit with a inverted rubbers and a small step to the left when the other player plays to his BH corner

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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website


Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 04/09/2011 at 11:46pm
One with hat is clearly better, (He is beter at keeping it on the table) but would be 1300 max, depending on what region of USA he plays. One without hat 1250 with same disclaimer. I would be very surprised to to see them rated any higher. If so, I would have to go over there for a tourney to bag me sum rating points.
 
The ammount of money these guys would spend in USA with a USATT 2400-2500 level coach to reach 1800 would be insanely high and make that coach's assests high enough to fund a hostile takeover of a major corperation. They could take that money, pay for tickets to Korea, train there, and still have ample funds after two years of coaching and living expenses.


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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc


Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 04/09/2011 at 11:58pm
OK, my guess is 1430 for one and 1500 for the other.  

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Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)


Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 04/10/2011 at 12:15am
My guess is 1259 and 1342 (maybe 1370)


Posted By: Ndragon88
Date Posted: 04/10/2011 at 1:32am
They both look like division 3 in my league. Of course they might look worse if they play players they aren't used to. They look like they would get about 25-50% in division 3 based on this video. 
If they went to tournaments to get a rating/ranking in UK I would imagine they wouldn't even get on there lol (no offence)


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Stiga Clipper
Skyline TG3 NEO/Palio Thors
www.youtube.com/ndragon88


Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 04/10/2011 at 8:35am
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

One with hat is clearly better, (He is beter at keeping it on the table) but would be 1300 max, depending on what region of USA he plays. One without hat 1250 with same disclaimer. I would be very surprised to to see them rated any higher. If so, I would have to go over there for a tourney to bag me sum rating points.
 
The ammount of money these guys would spend in USA with a USATT 2400-2500 level coach to reach 1800 would be insanely high and make that coach's assests high enough to fund a hostile takeover of a major corperation. They could take that money, pay for tickets to Korea, train there, and still have ample funds after two years of coaching and living expenses.

"fund a hostile takeover of a major corporation" wth, ahahhhahaha


Posted By: tomkat22
Date Posted: 04/11/2011 at 11:25am
Cap guy 1500,jean shorts 1550. Jean shorts guy's serves are quite illegal(no ball toss and in front of the endline). 


Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 04/11/2011 at 4:25pm
icontek,
 
Have you any videos of LP against anti?
 
Does anyone have videos of 2000+ level LP against anti gameplay?
 
Thanks.


Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 04/11/2011 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

One with hat is clearly better, (He is beter at keeping it on the table) but would be 1300 max, depending on what region of USA he plays. One without hat 1250 with same disclaimer. I would be very surprised to to see them rated any higher. If so, I would have to go over there for a tourney to bag me sum rating points.
 
The ammount of money these guys would spend in USA with a USATT 2400-2500 level coach to reach 1800 would be insanely high and make that coach's assests high enough to fund a hostile takeover of a major corperation. They could take that money, pay for tickets to Korea, train there, and still have ample funds after two years of coaching and living expenses.

"fund a hostile takeover of a major corporation" wth, ahahhhahaha
 
Just saying it would take a LOT of $$$ is boring and doesn't effectively convey that it would indeed take a LOT of $$$ and that a number of US coaches are in it for the "cash cow". These coaches "milk" the player for a lot of expensive lessons and do not level up the players a whole lot. How many times have you seen a semi-rich dude get top coaching and all the coach really does is be a highly paid blocker? Most who come to Korea and get a couple years club membership with light training of 3x a week multiball lessons reach anywhere from USATT 1500-2100 starting out as a 1000 level newb. They do that with any equipment. The coaching, matches, and tourneys bring up the rest.
 
Maybe I should have said they could move to Hookshot's town and buy him a new ride and get free coaching for a couple years and shoot up 400-600 USATT points. Hookshot doesn't mess around.


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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc


Posted By: Hookshot
Date Posted: 04/11/2011 at 7:56pm
I coach at a college and am not allowed to charge money. (only when at the college).
 I see many people with wierd games. Most have played enough basement play that the strokes are now habit. I have tried to help some of these when I first started coaching. Now, I would refuse to spend time trying to help some of these.

I do try to help anybody learn how to do good serves. Also some tactics even with strange strokes. 
 
My best students have always been someone that has not played at all or very little. Once in a while, I get someone that is very good. One guy from Nepal, (was on thier Junior National team) was the best. He was only here for one year and transferred to a bigger school out of state.

If I was charging money, would I coach anybody? Don't know. It is frustrating when you spend hours showing something and as soon as he gets in a game, it is gone. All the old habits are back.
With new students, I start by showing a training vid so they know what we are trying to learn. I only teach double inverted. I will use my Seemiller setup so they can see what it is like to play against anti.  Smile

I would not try to coach either player in the vid. They are too set in thier ways. For me to do them any good, they would have to change thier strokes, grip, footwork, stance, well, almost everything.


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 04/12/2011 at 5:48pm
Not really sure what their level is.  All depends how they handle spin.

TBH, just looking at their weird serves, they might beat me, if they can handle spin...


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Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: Takadigi
Date Posted: 04/12/2011 at 6:31pm
Contrary to popular judgement in this thread, I think these guys are US 1700 to 1900 players or even higher. As APW46 mentioned, both of these guys appear to have been playing for a long time and have a very good feeling of the ball. But their completely uni-dimensional & flawed game will absolutely not let them improve any further. Those of you who are sub-1600 players and feel you can beat them, you may get a rude shock if you happen to get on to the table with them. I doubt a sub-1600 player can even take a single game from either of them.


Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 04/12/2011 at 7:25pm
Wow, you're definitely going against the grain on this one.  1700-1900 seems WAY too high.  They are too many flaws in their game and unforced errors to be at that level.  Not to mention their questionable tactics. 
If you're right, I'll gladly eat my words.


Posted By: Takadigi
Date Posted: 04/12/2011 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

Wow, you're definitely going against the grain on this one.  1700-1900 seems WAY too high.  They are too many flaws in their game and unforced errors to be at that level.  Not to mention their questionable tactics. 
If you're right, I'll gladly eat my words.


I could very well be wrong as it is really difficult to accurately judge someone's level from a video particularly for those do not play conventional strokes. It will be interesting to wait and get confirmation of their real ratings.


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 04/12/2011 at 9:21pm
Rating and match history posted on Page 1.


Thanks all for playing, there were some interesting observations in the thread.

Folks who pointed out that Scott's FH was effective were partially right (on table% needs to be higher)

Folks who pointed out that John had a strong BH were correct (push or counter, he will keep it in play).

I'll see if I can get a match of John vs. a more traditional opponent soon.



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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42


Posted By: iCanLoopHard
Date Posted: 04/12/2011 at 10:47pm
nice this is fun i wasnt off by too much


Posted By: tomkat22
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 12:49am
WooHoo,what do I win! Smile I'm about 1600 myself and both players were making some shots that would "give me some problems",so I figured both were at the 1500-1600 level.


Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 1:23am
Guys from around the same level and play these kind of guys at tournaments should have been able to get that pretty close and it seems they did. It's normal for player rated less than them to underrate guys above them in some crazy show of self confidence :). Guys above the players in the video probably under rate them also but to a lesser amount.  Players just like this without any formal training or having grown up playing good players become unorthodox naturally, these guys make up the bulk of every club and without them we wouldn't have the numbers and wouldn't have clubs so remember to celebrate the average player! :)


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 8:30am
Tomkat I have an old sheet of fake provincial h3. How does that sound?

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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 8:48am
And without opponents like these I would get spanked by unorthodox styles at tournament time...

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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42


Posted By: tomkat22
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 8:51am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Tomkat I have an old sheet of fake provincial h3. How does that sound?


Thanks but I play with junk rubber on both sides,anti on the BH and medium pips on the FH. Gotta keep em on their toes. Wink


Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 9:00am
No points for getting their ratingscentral numbers right? ;)  I was lazy and didn't look up their usatt ratings before posting my guess.
Interesting that their ratingscentral rating is noticeably lower.

Those guys haven't played in a usatt event since may of 2008.


Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 9:03am
The most interesting thing here is that almost every one who guessed gave them a lower ranking then what they actually have.

Now, is this because so few have seen their own game on video and thinks they look so much better then these guys? Or, is it because this is the internet and it's so easy to put people down?

Sure, awkwards styles and a coach who wanted to teach them proper strokes would end up baldwith in an hour, but they where way more consistent then a lot of other ~1400-1600 players I've seen on vids.

I failed to see the strong fh, but the bh seemed to be a real weapon. Hardly a loop, but a good bh hit from one of the guys.

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The holy grail


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 11:19am
Thanx for the post and follow-up. I would have guessed the hatless guy (Mr. BackHand) was higher rated. 

It goes to show watching people play, drill, warm-up whatever can give you very different impressions compared to when you play them.


Posted By: addoydude
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 11:26am
yeah.. People watching me play always overrate me. :)

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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
H3 NEO / 388-D1


Posted By: davidz
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 12:22pm

This is a nice test how to rate player based on video. 

I can feel that John's rating is higher, because his playing is more stable, and tough to play with. But I did not give him enough point.
 


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PG7 (Skyline 2, LKT XP)
YEO (Skyline 2, Skyline 3)


Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 12:28pm
Here is the thing - I watched the video and then tried to compare these guys to the people who play tournaments in Quincy and see who plays at approximately same level. And I frankly thought that people who have 1300-1400 rating would have no problem at all with both of these players. I was apparently wrong.

However - I should say two things

a) those ratings are very old
b) those ratings are from Maine-only tournaments while playing vs the same crowd. It would be very different for these guys when they come to another place.


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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member

Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...


Posted By: Jonan
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

Interesting that their ratingscentral rating is noticeably lower.

Those guys haven't played in a usatt event since may of 2008.


I noticed when comparing rating central ratings of players at my recent tournament vs their USATT ratings that across the board the ratings were 200 and up to even 400 points lower on rating central.

Ratings that are 3 years old are pretty unreliable...younger players especially can advance 400 points in a single year or older players who stopped drilling can lose 100 points in a year easily.


Posted By: chu_bun
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 2:01pm
Maybe rating is relative to a region.  These guys appear to be more consistent that 1300-1400 level players I play with.  I'm on par with 1500-1600 players in my region, but I'm not so sure I can beat these two in a tournament.  

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Clipper Wood, Sanwei Gears FH, Sanwei T88-I BH.


Posted By: Hookshot
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 2:44pm
This vid shows what I think of as 1600 to 1700 players. I do not see how the two could possibly beat these players or even come close.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TQG617CSi0&feature=player_embedded - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TQG617CSi0&feature=player_embedded


Posted By: davidz
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 2:46pm
In order to beat John, I may try some of these
 
1. Agressive looping with higher success ratio for heavy backspin balls. Strong slow looping for backspin balls may also help.
2. Quick underspin or backspin long service following next powerful hit.
3. To be a good chopper and controller, and can also keep the ball retured low and fast.
4. Blade with long pip in one side and inverted rubber in the other side.
5. It is better to have quick playing pace because he stands closed to table.
 
 
Originally posted by chu_bun chu_bun wrote:

Maybe rating is relative to a region.  These guys appear to be more consistent that 1300-1400 level players I play with.  I'm on par with 1500-1600 players in my region, but I'm not so sure I can beat these two in a tournament.  


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PG7 (Skyline 2, LKT XP)
YEO (Skyline 2, Skyline 3)


Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 2:52pm
I would tend to agree w/ Hookshot on that.  The guy in that video has pretty good defense.  I've come to the conclusion from watching videos like these that my loops are way above what my level probably is (have yet to play in a tournament) and that I have to be more disciplined so that I don't try to force a shot when it's not there and stay focused so I don't make silly mistakes in the short game.


Posted By: addoydude
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:

 
I noticed when comparing rating central ratings of players at my recent tournament vs their USATT ratings that across the board the ratings were 200 and up to even 400 points lower on ratingscentral.

Icontek's rating is higher on ratingscentral.

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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
H3 NEO / 388-D1


Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 3:25pm

I think region has a lot to do with things. For instance, if these guys played in california, I'd be laughing if you told me it was 1600 for either guy. I can understand 1600 at most for somewhere like maine, though.

Whoever put them 1700-1900 however, that's ridiculous no matter how low the rating standard is where you are. You don't see anyone above 1500-1600 get into a pushing rally where the ball goes to the same spot over and over no matter what equipment they are using. I saw 10-12 shots in a row all pushes go to the same spot on the table, and when a person tried to attack it was almost always a miss. I can see how the guy without the hat can be troublesome. But again, anything over 1600 is too much. And he falls right about there. The understanding of point formulation at anything above 1600 should be higher than what those guys are doing, and the most supportive part to that is that they have played each other many many times.


Posted By: addoydude
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 3:48pm
to be honest even hookshot's link above doesn't look like coached players. Many juniors with coaching have more polished looking strokes even at 1000 level. Of course these juniors usually have trouble in adjusting to spin variation even though they have good form. Which just goes to show good form is not everything and basement style can take you far.

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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
H3 NEO / 388-D1


Posted By: Hookshot
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 3:57pm
Thats right, they do not look like someone with alot of coaching but,,, they are 10 times more consistant. And, I consider them "coachable". The original two have so many bad habits, I would not even attempt to coach them. Smile


Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 4:10pm
I don't think it's fair to use a high light video to compare players against a video that shows every single mistake made. Have the guys in the original video play 5-6 matches and show the high lights from that and I bet a lot of us would rate them as a lot better.

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The holy grail


Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by addoydude addoydude wrote:

to be honest even hookshot's link above doesn't look like coached players. Many juniors with coaching have more polished looking strokes even at 1000 level. Of course these juniors usually have trouble in adjusting to spin variation even though they have good form. Which just goes to show good form is not everything and basement style can take you far.


You can have very "coached" great-looking strokes, fluid motions, great ripping kill-loops and then suck at tournaments.

There was this kid in a Boston club who went head-to-head with me during practice. Man, he was looping and power-driving like Ma Long, his fast loops were really good when we did some warming up and I put the ball consistently to his forehand and backhand (my rating at the time was about 1900, so his "technical" rating seemed really good to me). Then we started playing the actual match, and he consistently got no more than 4-5 points in every one of three sets. Turned out the kid just didn't know what to do except for simple push if the opponent didn't give him nice and easy balls comfortable for looping/killing.


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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member

Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...


Posted By: Jonan
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by addoydude addoydude wrote:

to be honest even hookshot's link above doesn't look like coached players. Many juniors with coaching have more polished looking strokes even at 1000 level. Of course these juniors usually have trouble in adjusting to spin variation even though they have good form. Which just goes to show good form is not everything and basement style can take you far.


Yeah, I faced a tiny beast of a player in a 1050 rated kid who was like 8 years old it seemed. I won, though honestly only due to winning a couple games by serving with long pips and getting a lot of misses on the returns. He was good, was getting good coaching, was good at drills, just didn't have the experience though he could loop with better form and more balls than many 1600 players. I'm fairly sure I wouldn't win if we faced again, after the match his dad took him to a table and ran drills on reading spin on low spins serves...


Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Hookshot Hookshot wrote:

This vid shows what I think of as 1600 to 1700 players. I do not see how the two could possibly beat these players or even come close.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TQG617CSi0&feature=player_embedded - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TQG617CSi0&feature=player_embedded

I actually thick that the pace of the game is noticeably slower than the one play by the players in the OP.  In the OP there are a lot of quick pushes, and don't forget they are playing with pips, so that mean lower level loopers may be in some shock when they play these 2 guys in OP.


Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:


There was this kid in a Boston club who went head-to-head with me during practice. Man, he was looping and power-driving like Ma Long, his fast loops were really good


Wow, looping like Ma Long and only go head to head against you. Guess you are better then I thought

Don't worry, I get your point and I agree with it, some players have "warm up" strokes that makes them look really good, but little understanding or skill when it comes to actuall match situations.

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The holy grail


Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 04/13/2011 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:


There was this kid in a Boston club who went head-to-head with me during practice. Man, he was looping and power-driving like Ma Long, his fast loops were really good


Wow, looping like Ma Long and only go head to head against you. Guess you are better then I thought


Yep, that's me, Zhang Jike in disguise! He didn't have a chance... Big smile

That kid grew up a little since then and I watched him play recently - he does a bit better now in tourneys but still surprises me with his low USATT rating (other kids if his age who train as much as he does, were able to to do much better at the tournaments).

I think his speed gets the better of him - he wants to kill every ball and makes so many unforced errors.


-------------
Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member

Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 04/14/2011 at 1:04am
Good point about the ratings being a few years out of date. However, I can attest to the fact that these players play no less than they did a few years back. And if anything, John is enjoying more than enough to maintain level (3 days a week of play).

As always Ratings Central is reporting lower than USATT ratings. That's all I can figure, as Sonu Bhatia (one of Maine's best active players at US1962 in 2009) is only rated about 1500 ratings central. Same for Albert Landry a US1700+ player in 2009 who is only RC1439 and TJ Braley is got an initial USATT 1400+ rating but is only rated in the high 800's according to Ratings Central. But I won't turn this into yet another "which is system is more accurate" debate, because discrepancies exist between the two systems, and perhaps having both ratings posted helps paint a better picture (at least in terms of matches played, history, etc).

And Jim, I know you are scratching your head about John, but keep in mind that he's beaten both Cory Johnson in 2008 and Harry Vu (when he was active)several times. Those were both legit US1600+ players at the time. He does well against folks with good mechanics up to about 1700 or so. If for no other reason that loopers up to the 1500 level simply don't have the footwork or consistency to survive the blocks and counters that he dishes out.

Originally posted by davidz davidz wrote:

In order to beat John, I may try some of these
 
1. Agressive looping with higher success ratio for heavy backspin balls. Strong slow looping for backspin balls may also help.
2. Quick underspin or backspin long service following next powerful hit.
3. To be a good chopper and controller, and can also keep the ball retured low and fast.
4. Blade with long pip in one side and inverted rubber in the other side.
5. It is better to have quick playing pace because he stands closed to table.
 


You're mostly on the mark.
The people who can beat him in friendly matches usually play 1. , 2. and/or 5. He has trouble against some LP styles (especially classic penhold w/ the twist of FH LP) - but again, what sub 1800 player doesn't have trouble against that style ;D

John regularly beats choppers/control players who mix chops/lobs/loops.

Originally posted by addoydude addoydude wrote:

Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:

 
I noticed when comparing rating central ratings of players at my recent tournament vs their USATT ratings that across the board the ratings were 200 and up to even 400 points lower on ratingscentral.

Icontek's rating is higher on ratingscentral.


Last time I checked, my USATT rating had finally oustripped my RC rating.

BONUS Video posted in OP

See my sig.


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