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Bad Match Habits Video

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Topic: Bad Match Habits Video
Posted By: icontek
Subject: Bad Match Habits Video
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 9:20am
I took a beating in a friendly match recently. The matches are usually much closer, and I wanted to figure out why.

First the highlights, then my own criticisms of my play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nerk5mdgi8&feature=player_detailpage#t=88s - Rally 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nerk5mdgi8&feature=player_detailpage#t=164s - Rally 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nerk5mdgi8&feature=player_detailpage#t=208s - Rally 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nerk5mdgi8&feature=player_detailpage#t=305s - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nerk5mdgi8&feature=player_detailpage#t=365s - Rally 4

NOTES:
-I notice that I only seem to move when pushing.
-The majority of the points I win are on the strength of push (placement, spin)
-When topspinning, I stand still unless it's a wide ball. Then I RUN.
-I tend to move AFTER taking a shot, rather than moving before I take my shot, I am not setting up my FH by getting in position and am forced to jam or adjust my stroke because my feet haven't set up my position. I think this is the root cause of my inconsistency.
-I still refuse to loop underspin with my FH. What is the point of drilling it if I am too tentative/tight to get my feet there to use it in a match?
-My service reads were horribly inconsistent. Peter's serve is fairly deceptive, but I can usually keep it close simply by identifying the BH serves, pushing those, and then BH topspinning everything else.
-Tonight my BH topspin did not show up - My backhand wrist is too tight and I am not taking a full stroke.
-I miss too many 3rd ball attacks.

In all, I am displeased, because while peter usually wins (he's rated almost 100 US points higher and almost > 200 RC points higher) I usually can keep it close and take a few games and will lose 3-1 or 3-2. On those nights, I push a lot more and return serve better, winning a lot more 2nd balls against serve with BH topspin and putting my 3rd balls on the table. However, I realize that if I want to step my overall game, and improve topspin, I am going to have to spend loads of time drilling footwork and position so I can use my topspin in an "unrushed" manner.

And just to contrast:
Below are the strokes I am trying to develop in practice and in games against weaker players. Integrating them into my game is surprisingly difficult.
 
For setting up the point with pressure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOhRbaMIoIA&feature=youtube_gdata_player - 1. backhand block/counter/topspin practice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX7uU3PdVFY - 2. forehand topspin silliness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAqxNNvEgPY&NR=1 - 3. fh combo bloop er




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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . Virtuoso AC : K1 + EL-P



Replies:
Posted By: patrick1v
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 10:22am
well first thing you push way too much against this guy he gave you a lot of chance to attack him.what you have to do is practice quite a bit of serve and attack drills and also 4th ball aattack where he serves you push he push back then you attack more so on the back hand and also on the forehand.also you tend to rush your shots need to be a bit more patient.also any long serves to you should be attack always.hope this helps


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 11:19am

Icontek,

Your game looks so much like mine that it is scary.  I have been trying to figure out the same movement problems you are describing for a couple of months.  I have not been successful in correcting my problems, but I think I have identified some root causes.
 
First I realized that there are two types of movements to make.  One is movement to get into the "center of angle" position.  This is the movement you should make just after you hit the ball based on where you hit the ball.  In the video you do this really well when you push and you actually do it pretty good when you topspin.  When you push the play is slow so you have lots of time to make your adjustment so you make larger moves and still get ready.  In topspin play there is less time so the movements should feel more rushed even when you do them right.   The second movement is the "adjust to the ball" movement.  This is the movement you should make just as your opponent hits the ball (or at least as soon as you know where the ball is going) to put you into proper hitting position.   This is the movement that you are doing very poorly.
 
So why would you do one correctly and not do the other one right.  After you hit the ball (if you do not overswing) you basically have your weight centered over your feet and the position you are moving to reach (next ready position) is one in which you are centered.  This makes doing the 2-step sideways movement relatively easy.   When you are doing the "adjustment" movement you have do deal making 2 movements.  One is the same 2 step side to side movement you make in the "center of angle" move.  However, especially on the Fh side, you are also rotating your body and moving your arm out to your side to get into the backswing position.  If you rotate and swing your arm out before you move your feet you can get yourself in a position where you can not move your opposite side foot (one away from the direction you are leaning) without falling over.  Instead of moving you just lean farther and only after hitting the ball will you suddenly bring the opposite side foot across.   At this point you have way too much momentum going in the direction you moved and end up moving way to far in that direction.  
 
So the correction is to:
1. Move you feet before you start your backswing (body rotation and arm movement).  This is really easy to say and very hard to do if you have developed the habit of reaching for the ball first.  I did a drill the other day with just this in mind and for about 5 minutes I just could not make myself move the feet before I reached for the ball. 
 
2. Widen your stance and  bend your knees so that you lower your center of gravity.  This lets you make a little of that rotation and arm movement (and even some lean) without getting so off balance that you can not move the opposite side foot.  My theory on the stance width for players like us is that if it feels comfortable then it is too narrow and too high.  You really want the stance as wide as you can get without losing the ability to rotate the body enough to put the racket into the Fh backswing position without using arm movement.  Some experimentation showed for me this meant getting the stance between 2.3 and 2.7 times shoulder width.  For reference, my comfortable stance (the one I keep defaulting back to during points) is about 1.8 times my shoulder width.
 
So far I am not making much progress in taking these changes into matches.  In drills where I am not under much time pressure I can do the two things above fairly regularly.  However, in matches or when drill speed (ball frequency) gets closer to match conditions I revert back to my old habits.  I am very frustrated in not being able to get myself to do what I know I should be doing.   Your movement against pushes may be better just because you have more time and don't feel pressured to get the arm out there (rotate and lean) before you move your feet.
 
 
Good luck and hope this helps some.
 
Mark


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 12:02pm
Holy cats mark! thank you. The stance width problem is consistent. I always forget to stay low and wide.

League championship Monday and no time to practice before then.

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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . Virtuoso AC : K1 + EL-P


Posted By: Ndragon88
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 12:07pm
Your not that bad icontek :) I was expecting something bad with your post lol
Your pushing is good when successful which is most of the time. Half the people would get a shock playing against them. Not as easy to open up on as people may think. But the problem with this is it looks like you have gotten used to pushing too much lol. Also you try and really dig into the ball all the time. Sometimes you gotta guide it back, u might be surprised to see an easy opener for yourself :P
When the game opens up your not bad there either. You spin or hit the ball when necessary. I would say that at times u should spin the ball a bit more though as u tend to hit more than spin.
and yes as you already pointed out. 'Footwork' can't stress how important it is. Try not to be lazy lol.

Keep it up though man looks like you have improved quite a bit since that video I saw of you playing that junior and the guy in the white t-shirt.

How do u like regular H3 untuned btw? Might be an idea to try H3NEO? or have u tried Thors? or even BW2 untuned?


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Stiga Clipper
Skyline TG3 NEO/Palio Thors
www.youtube.com/ndragon88


Posted By: TheRobot99
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 12:36pm
I think he's tried Thor's before and said something akin to it being "too hot to handle."

Anyway, my take on this would be to slow down a bit. I don't mean hit the ball slower. I mean give yourself a bit more time to read the ball better before hitting it. Part of that involves being able to move faster which is the same thing as improving footwork. I guess I sound like I'm jumping on the footwork bandwagon lol.

You already covered your backhand topspin not showing up at all. I think part of that (as well as opening against backspin and any lack of offense) is being brave enough to do it when it matters.


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Ross Leidy Custom, DHS Hurricane III Neos, Nittaku Nodias

Xiom Fuga, Globe 999 National 39, Nittaku Nodias

JOOLA Torre All+, DHS Hurricane II #19 Sponge, Galaxy Moon 38

PTTC VP - 2011-12


Posted By: iCanLoopHard
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 12:36pm
your worse bad habit is that you miss the table :) at that level you just need to hit the table more and your opponent will lose the point. i know easier said than done


Posted By: ZJKandMLfan
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 2:28pm
tbh, ur not bad at all.  

Here's criticism that i recently got from some of the high lvl players on my team in my league (around 22-2300 players u.s rating):

First, you should always be on ur toes.  A lot of the times im on my toes waiting for my opponents serve and then right after that first shot, my feet are flat again which slows me down A LOT.

Second, there should ALWAYS be at least a little movement in your feet.  What i mean is, i watch some of the 2400 players play (some of my high ranked junior player friends) and before the serve, there bouncing just a little on their toes.  It's almost unnoticeable but if you watch carefully, they are bouncing just a little.  This will help you keep your feet moving and it will improve your reflex time because your feet are constantly moving instead of staying still.

Im not sure if i described that second part right but i hope you get my point.

The problem with probably ALL of us, is we miss shots not because our strokes or timing is incorrect, but because our feet aren't at the right place.  That leads to us moving our arms first before our feet (which is a terrible mistake) and constantly missing what we call "easy shots" because we're not in position.

Just something I thought i need to work on and something that would help improve your game as well


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Blade: Photino
FH: Donic Acuda S1, MAX
BH: Tenergy 64, MAX


Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 2:29pm
There were a couple of good rallies in there, but for the most part both of you seemed very passive like you were afraid to attack.  Far too many pushes.


Posted By: debraj
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 6:03pm
nice video...  : )




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729-F1||Rhyzm-P(FH)|| Rasant Grip orRhyzm-P max(BH)
http://youtu.be/y9y9nE9g778" rel="nofollow - vid1
http://youtu.be/xqNy786yGOs" rel="nofollow - Vid 2


Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 6:15pm
Your legs should be more engaged in the ready position. It seems you are just using them to prop your body up. The legs should be ready to sort of spring up, like with a little tension in the legs. Then you can use your legs more actively to get into position for a forehand, then make the forehand using your legs, waist,  torso, arm. 


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 8:10pm
Although there aren't any comments on your fh mechanics, I will say that needs a lot of work.  I don't know how to put it besides the source of your power is from the wrong place (your biceps).  It should be coming from your legs which you can't take advantage of because of the way you stand (stand up), instead of squatting.  Reminding yourself to stay down will only do so much because in your case, standing up is almost like an involuntary movement since your legs seem too weak.  Once your legs are strong enough, you can move faster, loop harder (and spinner which means more consistent), and have more stamina.

Rule of thumb, if the ball is long, loop it!

The way I see it is, those are your two main sources to all your problems.  Of course all of this is much easier said than done.

One comment I want to make and it is some thing I noticed in all your videos: you still rely on the slowness of your equipment to make shots for you instead of using slower equipment to help you stay consistent as you attack more.


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Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: Hookshot
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 8:31pm
 OK, I watched the vid again and have two things for you for now.
#1)     Loops. You do not have a loop. You are flat hitting. The reason is you start your stroke almost the same height as the ball. The only choice is to go into the ball. Result, very little spin. Flat trajectory, no room for error. I have not seen your practice vid so not sure what you do there. Maybe you do use a good loop stroke then but in the game, it is gone.
 
Suggest you "Study" the game vid. Watch for "WHERE YOUR STROKE STARTS" AND "WHERE YOUR STROKE ENDS'. This tells everything. Your stroke should start low and end in a salute position. You also have a tendency to lift your elbow and fold the bat over. Not good. Blade angle should stay close to the same angle all through the stroke. Notice your blade is usually flat to the table or even past flat at the end of stroke.

#2)    Pushing. You wait for the ball to start dropping. Good way to make pop-ups. Plus the ball has to travel further. Plus, the ball must go up more to clear the net before coming down.

Suggest you try to push the ball "on the way up",  You will find it requires a different bat angle. Experiment until you find it. This keeps the ball shorter where they can not loop it. Push the ball just after the bounce while the ball is rising.

A push is done in two stages. 1) get the bat in position. 2) Stroke is forwards and down. Stroke is only about 2 to 4 inches long! Read that again, 2 to 4 inches! DO NOT LIFT the ball. Forwards and down. Blade angle is FIXED. It should not change through the stroke.

For an agressive push, wait for the ball to be higher, use wrist and forarm. These pushes should be fast and LONG. Smile



Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 8:54pm
At least you try and use your serve to create oppotunities, so never forget that part in a tight game
It seems you are actually a bit square to the table when attacking with your forehand so get your left foot slighty in front and this will help you naturally use your torso more
 You have got spinny fubber yet you seldom topspined it (so get stuck in and get the ball wizzing lol)
Ndragan has a point about guiding the backhand over at times (you can do this on service returns on serves that you understand) and the beauty is keeping it low rather than spinny
 We all get caught out with being flat footed so just keep reminding your self to move

Those high ones with a bit of backspin that look light sitters can be hard if you wait too long and and then  plonk, so get to the ball and aim at a place and whamo


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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website


Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 04/15/2011 at 10:22pm
watched a little more and I think you should shorten the follow through on the smashes and focus on control. You'll get power from just the relaxation of the arm.


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 04/16/2011 at 8:11am
Thank you for all the great feedback and encouragement! It's good to get some additional perspective. Tuesday, when I film some stuff for my next "Intermediate TT" installment, I'll see if I can't get one of my buds to film me doing a few looopdrills and implement the following.

1) Widening my stance
2) Moving to the ball BEFORE the stroke
3) dropping my right foot back for FH
4) Balancing my backswing from ready position to followthrough
5) Keeping my stroke plane more consistent and elbow down a bit
 
God that's a lot to work on.[ But if I get 1 and 2 in place, 3-4-5 will be much easier!


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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . Virtuoso AC : K1 + EL-P


Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 04/16/2011 at 8:40am
Table tennis is a funny game as we work on some things and neglet others, but you still can have many options for any particular shot and learning more options is the fun part but selecting the right shot in a game dosn't always happen as we revert back to what we know.
 Keep practicing and also try and add this into your real practice games, Things that I might do are
The same serve in the whole game so you have to play better to win points
say to myself every long serve I get will be looped
or Im only going to topspin (don't worry about the points) as this will lead to confidence when needed 


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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website


Posted By: Imago
Date Posted: 04/16/2011 at 3:30pm
Start with holding your wrist downward so that the paddle axis be a continuation of your forearm.


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 04/16/2011 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Thank you for all the great feedback and encouragement! It's good to get some additional perspective. Tuesday, when I film some stuff for my next "Intermediate TT" installment, I'll see if I can't get one of my buds to film me doing a few looopdrills and implement the following.

1) Widening my stance
2) Moving to the ball BEFORE the stroke
3) dropping my right foot back for FH
4) Balancing my backswing from ready position to followthrough
5) Keeping my stroke plane more consistent and elbow down a bit
 
God that's a lot to work on.[ But if I get 1 and 2 in place, 3-4-5 will be much easier!


Like I said, do some fitness training for your legs and fix your stroke mechanics and every thing else will fall into place!!!

3-4 are mistakes caused by not having 1 and 2!

I recommend using a new gripping method.  Yours seem to have low potential for looping, and well everything in general (unless you start playing like Schlager).  Possibly the reason why you can only smack and bump the ball.  Like Hookshot said, you have no fh loop, at least not in game.  You also don't have a bh loop either, its a bump.


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Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 04/16/2011 at 5:30pm
Mis-reading spin gave your opponent a lot of chances to attack, but you were lucky he didn't attack on the majority of those balls you chose to push and popped up, especially those close to the net. You do not loop as Hookshot noted. Having a loop vs underspin is a must if you want to be an attacking player. This opponent handed you chance after chance for this. Once you learn, a loop vs unserspin is easy. You have a long time to move/setup/get low. Once you get into a hit to hit rally, you perform better. You give away way too many points before you get one of those rallies. More time will help out reading the spin, especially that on serves. It was killing you a lot vs this opponent. His serves were not really that difficult and were frequently long, just asking to get punished for winners or strong pressure.

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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc


Posted By: nightcrawler56
Date Posted: 04/17/2011 at 9:02pm
In complete honesty after watching only the first rally i found a few key points already discussed;

1) You need to work on stance and consolidate your serve receiving  position.
2) Lear some discernible technic for both fh and bh. Its not me being mean but you put in the perfect amount of energy and you are really engaged, but you are let down by slack technic.
3)Learn a decent serve. After watching rally one, you seem to serve a no spin, high, and at times inconsistent serve. Watch some of the pingskills vids, they have a lot of really good serves and they go through them from scratch.

My comments may sound a bit harsh, but they are the table tennis fundamentals. If you can watch some of the youtube vids of timo boll or maybe ma long, you will notice clear technic in every single shot, as well as you will notice how they move around in the court.

Good luck man


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 04/17/2011 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by nightcrawler56 nightcrawler56 wrote:

In complete honesty after watching only the first rally i found a few key points already discussed;

1) You need to work on stance and consolidate your serve receiving  position.
2) Lear some discernible technic for both fh and bh. Its not me being mean but you put in the perfect amount of energy and you are really engaged, but you are let down by slack technic.
3)Learn a decent serve. After watching rally one, you seem to serve a no spin, high, and at times inconsistent serve. Watch some of the pingskills vids, they have a lot of really good serves and they go through them from scratch.

My comments may sound a bit harsh, but they are the table tennis fundamentals. If you can watch some of the youtube vids of timo boll or maybe ma long, you will notice clear technic in every single shot, as well as you will notice how they move around in the court.

Good luck man

I agree with you, but it's easier said than done.  You give good criticism, but you only give him a direction with no instructions.  "work on your stance, get good technique, learn decent serve" does not mean much without clear details.

Don't take this personally, most of the people on the forum do this, even I do. Embarrassed


icontek, I know that you want to play tt by using your strong mental game (with your serve, 3rd ball, and push tactics) to win, but do you have a more long term goal of how you want to play?  We have discussed about how little time you get to play to improve on technique, but TBH you play more than me.  Do you ever plan to play a more aggressive game, involve more rallies, loop oriented, or just master 3rd ball?  At a certain point, your push battles will not work anymore as anything that goes long will be killed with extreme prejudice.  You will have to learn how to push on the rise and learn how to drop short like how Hookshot taught you.  He gave some very good advice.


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Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: davidz
Date Posted: 04/17/2011 at 10:50pm
Nice game! 
 
I think your winning odds will be increased if you focus more on the following points you made: five(loop underspin), six(return of service) and eight (3rd ball attacks), 
 
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

NOTES:
-I notice that I only seem to move when pushing.
-The majority of the points I win are on the strength of push (placement, spin)
-When topspinning, I stand still unless it's a wide ball. Then I RUN.
-I tend to move AFTER taking a shot, rather than moving before I take my shot, I am not setting up my FH by getting in position and am forced to jam or adjust my stroke because my feet haven't set up my position. I think this is the root cause of my inconsistency.
-I still refuse to loop underspin with my FH. What is the point of drilling it if I am too tentative/tight to get my feet there to use it in a match?
-My service reads were horribly inconsistent. Peter's serve is fairly deceptive, but I can usually keep it close simply by identifying the BH serves, pushing those, and then BH topspinning everything else.
-Tonight my BH topspin did not show up - My backhand wrist is too tight and I am not taking a full stroke.
-I miss too many 3rd ball attacks.



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PG7 (Skyline 2, LKT XP)
YEO (Skyline 2, Skyline 3)


Posted By: Hookshot
Date Posted: 04/17/2011 at 11:23pm
Loop underspin,
Return of service
Third ball attack.

Problem is he HAS NO LOOP.
The real answer is to get coaching to learn to loop.

Return of service needs a loop for long serves and a good push for short serves.
Unless the 2nd ball is a sitter, you need a loop to make a third ball. If the 2nd ball is low, a flat hit will not work.

To return a short, low serve, you need a proper push. (or flip) Pushing after the top of the arc is giving the other guy the opportunity for a forth ball attack.


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 04/17/2011 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by Hookshot Hookshot wrote:

Loop underspin,
Return of service
Third ball attack.

Problem is he HAS NO LOOP.
The real answer is to get coaching to learn to loop.

Return of service needs a loop for long serves and a good push for short serves.
Unless the 2nd ball is a sitter, you need a loop to make a third ball. If the 2nd ball is low, a flat hit will not work.

To return a short, low serve, you need a proper push. (or flip) Pushing after the top of the arc is giving the other guy the opportunity for a forth ball attack.

Yes, agree it is time for him to get a coach to teach him how to do a proper loop.  I think it is most likely the reason why he is pushing so much is his lack of a loop.  If you have a strong consistent loop, you would probably always use it.


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Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 04/18/2011 at 12:28am
Many good observations made on this post regarding technique, timing, stroke execution, stance, etc. I did not read the post too carefully so if someone said anything about strategy, I'm sorry I didn't see it, so I'll put my 2 cents about that.

Icontek, your game is not bad at all. As a matter of fact you have the tools to beat this guy. The issue is that:

1. You're not using strategy when you play your friend
2. You're not adjusting.

Here is what I see in your game ( I only watched first game, but I'm certain all other games are the same ).

1. You are too eager to swing with your forehand on anything instead of taking your time and spinning the ball. Because you hurry to take that shot immediately as if that's the only way to win the point, you fail to realize what is actually happening. Your opponent always flips into your forehand and you are at 50% on that shot instead of being safer and aiming to be at least 80%. So, when you serve deep sidespin serves to your opponents backhand, your opponent always flips to your forehand. You should expect this "answer" and adjust your game accordingly - by being prepared to use your forehand with safe offensive instead of all out make it or miss shot.

2. Your pushing is good and you move your opponent around with pushes, but... you are not winning too many points this way. Why? Because you serve long sidespin serves. Long serve invites an opening from your opponent and not a push - so you only get into these push exchanges when your opponent serves short underspin. 

3. Your service return is very poor on the backhand. This is because of your stance. You are too perpendicular to the table and you're standing in the middle. Serves to backhand make you reach to the backhand side instead of stepping over there and returning it. Plus, you're not reading the ball. So you always struggle noticing when an underspin ball comes over or no spin. Meanwhile, your opponent serves to your backhand 80% of the time. The other serves are to your right hip - cross over point. Use this information strategically, be ready for backhand serve ALL the time, watch the service motion to read the spin, then attack. If the serve goes to forehand, try to spin safely a bit later - this will give you a comfortable return - which is better than missing the service outright.

4. Placement of your shots. When you return the shots - they always go to the middle of the table or to the backhand. You need to start using angles. Your opponent does not have a good forehand. He prefers using his backhand. The problem with that is that he is using a penhold grip - where the backhand is the weaker side, so having poor forehand is a just horrible.  That means your opponent can be stretched easily. To expose his backhand, first - loop to forehand, then block or counter to backhand. Attack moderately, don't try to crush the ball so that your consistency stays on the positive side. Since you struggle with serves, you'll need a safe way to retain the lead - giving you the margin to make some service return errors and not giving up the match.

5. Finally, keep asking yourself what is my opponents tendencies and weakness? Keep doing it after every point. What made your opponent miss? Force him to make his mistake again by repeating the play. For example, your opponent missed attack of underspin 80% of the time, that's why he allows you to get into long pushing duel, meanwhile, your consistency on the push play is better, so you're winning that as well. Your opponent has poor side to side footwork, so force him to move by making consistent angled attack - not powerful. Your opponent has better backhand, so don't attack the backhand unless he has to reach or run to get there. Serve short at least half the time.

Give some more thought to strategy. It will pay off.




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Back to table tennis...


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 04/18/2011 at 7:13am
Insightful stuff lex!

I'm on my phone so this will be quick and I'll add more later.

Peter actually has a strong FH loop and drive; it looks weak bc I am forcing him to move and giving him junk balls. But you are right that he has a strong backhand.

Link to non match backhand added to OP.

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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . Virtuoso AC : K1 + EL-P


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 04/18/2011 at 3:30pm
I could probably count the amount of actual bh loops you did in that video and I think there is less than 10.  Your bh is a counter with only light topspin, mostly topspin you are borrowing for the other player.  I see no wrist movement so there must not be much spin.

Also one thing about your stance, I see that some times you have your left foot behind you.  Unless your fh is quick, compact, and you plan to play a bh oriented game, this is not the way you want your foot positioning.  Parallel to the table at most, if not with your left foot in front as if you were hitting fh.


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Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 04/18/2011 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by ohhgourami ohhgourami wrote:

I could probably count the amount of actual bh loops you did in that video and I think there is less than 10.  Your bh is a counter with only light topspin, mostly topspin you are borrowing for the other player.  I see no wrist movement so there must not be much spin.

Also one thing about your stance, I see that some times you have your left foot behind you.  Unless your fh is quick, compact, and you plan to play a bh oriented game, this is not the way you want your foot positioning.  Parallel to the table at most, if not with your left foot in front as if you were hitting fh.
yes well said, just be suare to the direction of the opposite person, your backhand will improve by doing these drills, great work

My little brain is ticking and although I agree with Hookshot and leshxa about looping and technique I also think that a very natural stroke for you in particular is a top of the ball drive, this incorperates a shorter swing with the bat close to a 45` angle and driving the ball in its desired direction with some force, this also is a shot that Hurricane is fantastic at, you watch how the Chinese use this shot against topspin and a slightly higher ball at the table


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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website


Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 04/18/2011 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

My little brain is ticking and although I agree with Hookshot and leshxa about looping and technique I also think that a very natural stroke for you in particular is a top of the ball drive, this incorperates a shorter swing with the bat close to a 45` angle and driving the ball in its desired direction with some force, this also is a shot that Hurricane is fantastic at, you watch how the Chinese use this shot against topspin and a slightly higher ball at the table

What is natural for him now is debatable as there is still much about his technique he must work on.  For this specific shot, it is very important you time it early...

Friends grabbing me for dinner I'll finish this post later Big smile


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Custom Walnut 7-ply
DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40°
BTY T64
210g


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 04/18/2011 at 9:49pm
My thoughts-
Strategy suggestion-Work on trying to block your opponents loops. You seemed to want to counter hit hard. A simple block will be very effective against this player and much easier to execute.
Technique suggestion-Your FH often was almost a slap of the ball. As others have said, looping (grazing it) would be helpful. For your BH you hit/blocked a number with the paddle out to your side. I would suggest moving more and keeping your BH shots in front of you.

just some suggestions.

Also you serve out of a closed hand btw:)


Posted By: xander7803
Date Posted: 04/18/2011 at 10:31pm
   The biggest problem that I see in your game is what my coach would say is that you are "admiring your shots"!!! It sounds funny but believe it or not it's the fundamental of tt. When my coach is taking on a new talent,for thefirst 6 months all he does is teaches the child to get back to "ready" position as quickly as possible. Once that is implanted in muscle memory you start with the right technique that all this players in the forum talked about it. If you notice 95% of the time you are not even close of being ready for the shots. The returned ball catches you "on the wrong foot" so to speak. My personal advice (i did try it) is for the next 6 months all you should do is to be ready for the next shot meaning that let's say you are training in forehand rally. Try to bring your hand back faster so you are ready for the next shot. Same for service. Serve and don't worry where the ball goes, just look at your opponents movement and be ready for the ball. When serving (if you look at the good players) by the time the ball reaches the other half of the table, the server is already in the ball receiving position ie: topspin or chop back, but bottom line is that you be ready for the receive. I hope I make sense to you my man! I do see that you love this sport and RESPECT for that!!!


Posted By: TheRobot99
Date Posted: 04/18/2011 at 11:03pm
On top of what xander7803 said, it reminded me of something that a few people I play with do. I keep telling them stop "posing." They attempt to kill the ball, I return it, and they're stuck still in that killshot position and then I usually get the point. Then there are the people who don't move laterally.

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Ross Leidy Custom, DHS Hurricane III Neos, Nittaku Nodias

Xiom Fuga, Globe 999 National 39, Nittaku Nodias

JOOLA Torre All+, DHS Hurricane II #19 Sponge, Galaxy Moon 38

PTTC VP - 2011-12


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 04/19/2011 at 12:19am
good points about the "posing" or admiring shots.

..must..get..back..to...ready...position...

..so i can move again!


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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . Virtuoso AC : K1 + EL-P


Posted By: TheRobot99
Date Posted: 04/19/2011 at 4:08am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

good points about the "posing" or admiring shots.

..must..get..back..to...ready...position...

..so i can move again!
Well we can all tell you to do it till the cows come home, but not giving advice on how to do it can leave one stumped. Visualization helps me work on some physical motions. Be careful though. When you do this right, your body is inclined to actually try the motion so make sure when your visualizing a loop kill that nobody is nearby. LOL


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Ross Leidy Custom, DHS Hurricane III Neos, Nittaku Nodias

Xiom Fuga, Globe 999 National 39, Nittaku Nodias

JOOLA Torre All+, DHS Hurricane II #19 Sponge, Galaxy Moon 38

PTTC VP - 2011-12


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 04/19/2011 at 9:43am
Original post updated to include shots i never use in a game.

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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . Virtuoso AC : K1 + EL-P


Posted By: gatorling
Date Posted: 04/20/2011 at 10:28am
Just a few things I noticed (and I'm guilty of these when playing games as well).

1.) A lot of times when receiving service your bat is below the table - you are then rushed to bring your bat up and forward for a good push.
2.) 80% of your shots are too predictable. Always cross court, always the same three shots. Block, push, flat hit. Don't see many loops or top spins.
3.) Your loops seem to be way off and you look like you have a tendency to try to just smack the ball. Regardless of the spin. He will do a bad chop, leaving it up high. I think a SLOWER brushing motion at 45 deg will get this safely back into the table. All I hear is the *THWACK* sound of your bat - sounds like you're trying to smash it.
4.) When you do a fast serve to his BH you spend way too long getting into position then seem genuinely suprised when he BH punches it into your body. Generally if you serve long and fast it comes back long and fast.

I guess the overall theme is that you need to add more spin to your game and vary your placement.
You also need to spend less time admiring your serves/pushes/shots and more time preparing for the next one.

Perhaps our style is just different - but your strokes (no offense) just look a little weird to me. During your BH block/topspin practice I noticed that you simply just lift the ball back a lot instead of using the top sheet to grip and brush the ball back (to generate some nasty spin).
Also during your FH loop practice it looks like you start off with a loop(?) but then just keep on looping with a mostly upward motion. Typically if I open with a loop the next hit is a smash (if it's high) or top spin (if it's low) [also depends on how far from the table the other guy is].

I'd say you'd benefit a lot if you just slowed down your stroke entirely and focus on developing more touch and perfecting your mechanics. Really hard to get the right technique down when you're trying to kill the ball!



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