[Video] "Trying" to do Drills
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Topic: [Video] "Trying" to do Drills
Posted By: tpgh2k
Subject: [Video] "Trying" to do Drills
Date Posted: 06/21/2011 at 3:50pm
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Alrighty, as promised, you get some vids of me and my buddy Hwa doing some drills. we're not the best but it's great practice for sure =). ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Replies:
Posted By: dici
Date Posted: 06/21/2011 at 4:28pm
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I haven't fully watch all of them yet, but there are a few points about the drills. 1. Check the footwork, this will let you execute your drill easier (especially the back hand loop then forehand attack). Sometimes, it is not just squeeze your arm to execute the forehand attack. 2. You may want to consider a much more simpler. Forehand to forehand, backhand to backhand. Because there is still quite number of inconsistency, but it probably just depends on the muscle memory on the basic movement. While talking about forehand to forehand, or backhand to backhand, it is from one corner to another corner, but not straight line or the ball fly everywhere. |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 06/21/2011 at 4:31pm
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thanks dici! unfortunately, we're past those already...the inconsistencies really show themselves when we have to move. hence why we're starting this now. =)
------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: cls2222
Date Posted: 06/21/2011 at 4:52pm
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How long has Hwa been playing with RPB? I don't think he should change, it's nearly impossible to learn a new stroke when you're older. Hwa is making good contact with his FH but he is standing too upright and gets jammed easily: he should stand with his knees bent a little more and move for each ball, even if it is a centimeter to the left or right, just to get used to the movement and setup a "balanced" stance for playing the FH. ------------- Korbel Stiga Boost TX |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 06/21/2011 at 5:09pm
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for a while now. at least 2 years?
------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: cls2222
Date Posted: 06/21/2011 at 5:19pm
Here is my explanation btw. Thanks for looking. I am currently writing content for a table tennis site I want to create. Really sorry for the harsh tone; I get really motivated when I write about tt and may sound a tad too serious  . Also, this is a rough draft, can you tell me if anything is not clear; I want nothing but perfection .This is an excerpt from one of my articles (Playing with a Brain). If you have been playing with J-pen or one-sided C-pen your entire life, don't experiment with RPB (Reverse Penhold Backhand) just because you see Wang Hao, Wang Jian Jun, or Ma Lin using it. Also, if you plan on using the RPB block, it creates a cross-over point, which is very hard for many traditional C-pen players to get used to. Stick with the game you know and work your strengths around it. Also, never switch from penhold to shakehand or vice versa. Trying to change your game will only create weaknesses in it. For example, a traditional C-pen player who has just recently began using the RPB will typically have poor timing and contact when looping and blocking using the reverse side. The opponent could win points by using a very simple tactic such as serving or pushing long, (if receiving) heavy backspin far to the backhand corner with different pace/distance each time. The C-pen player would, most likely, open the rally with a weak topspin using his/her RPB, if not missing the shot entirely due to the variation in pace/distance. You are left with many options to go on the offensive after such a play: A. You can quickly block the ball (not to confuse with taking the ball early) deep to the BH corner and force him to topspin the ball with his RPB or block with either his RPB block or traditional penhold block. ***The reason why such a simple tactic works against C-pen players who just recently began using the RPB is because of the decision making process in using the BH. You have to decide which ball to block, which ball to topspin, which ball to take with the FH after a step around manuever, which ball to play safe (lob/chop back), which ball to play to the opponent's middle, wide BH or FH, and how far out you need to position yourself to take the ball at its peak or how far in you need to position yourself if the ball is shorter. The BH game is very complex and nearly impossible to grasp for players who have not learned how to play using it; it is like learning to play with your left hand. If you are a junior, cadet who uses traditional C-pen or J-pen and is thinking about switching to RPB, you must begin as soon as possible as the learning process is very difficult and as you get older, the brain learns different things more slowly (after your 20's, your brain stops growing, I will be writing a very in-depth article on the mental game and how the brain adapts to learning different things regarding table tennis using my neuropsychology background after I finish the table tennis fundamentals). B. You can counterloop the ball (advanced) to the C-pen player's wide FH and if the C-pen player returns the ball, you play it his wide BH, forcing him to play the ball safely (lob/chop) and giving you even more options for placement and an opportunity to smash the ball. This is a typical tactic against C-pen and J-pen players, as well as shakehand players with good FH's and weak BH's. If used properly, it has a very high success rate, especially against players with poor in/out movement. To learn more about this tactic, go to the "Tactics" section below the checklist. To learn how to recognize players who have poor in/out movement, click here. Excerpt from a different section in the article: So why is it so hard to follow a tactic so simple as "Play to his BH?" Well, most players are much too focused on their strokes, causing stress and unnecessary "noise" within the neural networks in your Primary Motor Cortex(part of the brain which controls motor skills). Due to their 100% focus on completing a stroke, they have no room for any other type of thinking (strategical thinking in this case). Click here for a complete overview of the mental aspect of table tennis. Link will lead to more in depth article o ------------- Korbel Stiga Boost TX |
tpgh2k wrote:Posted By: dici
Date Posted: 06/21/2011 at 10:10pm
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He still can try to use BRP, however, it definitely that the basic of brp loop still need to be improved. But what I found that it is much harder to use the BRP to block the shot. This may due to that I have more better understanding on the angle of paddle when looping. I think I only start the BRP early this spring, but I has less issue on executing the loop drive on top spin and float ball. If it is a heavy backspin, I'm definitely will use chop it back. But when I recall the last competition game I have played. My body memory is just too get to the old school penhold style that I won't ever thinking about executing the brp loop lol... |
Posted By: chu_bun
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 1:04am
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There are a few old guys (50+) here picking up RPB and use it effectively. They tend to use it for shots when they have more time such as flipping slow servers, killing high short balls, ... RPB does add more dimensions to their game. I don't really see why one shouldn't learn it because he started out with the TPB. ------------- Clipper Wood, Sanwei Gears FH, Sanwei T88-I BH. |
Posted By: cls2222
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 1:26am
If playing for fun, then by all means do what you like. However, when playing competitively, changing one's form or learning an entirely different stroke would be a severe drawback. Imagine giving Ryu Seung Min using a C-pen paddle and telling him to loop every ball using RPB when it goes to his BH side, it would expose a weakness in his game that players would exploit to the fullest extent. I wouldn't be surprised if he fell below WR 100 if that was the situation. Sorry if I wasn't clear. The scientific reason why learning a new stroke at an older age is so tough is because the brain does not actually learn the stroke. It adapts your current movements to somehow mimic the stroke that you want to produce. For example, after a certain age, some believe it is 25, the brain has learned pretty much everything it can regarding motor skills. After that, your body just adapts the existing movements that are "pre-programmed" in your brain to create the stroke you want to execute. The brain is a phenomenal adapter, but even it can't adapt to create a stroke it has never executed before. Also, this is the reason why "practice makes perfect." The more you repeat a stroke, the better your brain adjusts and adapts to mimic it, or if you are young, how to learn it. This is also the reason why many people have "accents" when trying to speak a different language. Take an American who has been speaking English his entire childhood and had not tried learning any other languages during that time. If you told him to pronounce something in Cantonese, for example, his brain would automatically pull together the voices, sounds needed in order to create that Cantonese word. However, the only voices, sounds he learned were English, so the only way he would be able to recreate that Cantonese word would be by using the English sounds he learned during his childhood. Eventually, with a ton of "practice makes perfect," his brain would be able to mix and blend the English sounds to mimic the Cantonese language even though the Cantonese pronunciation does not exist in his brain, just an adaption of the English language to mimic the Cantonese language. Hope this helps. Thanks for reading. ------------- Korbel Stiga Boost TX |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 1:36am
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i think they can learn it. it's kinda getting off track but i'll chime in too. example: kim bong geung. he was briefly the coach for GSU. he's a traditional jpen back when he first moved to the states (like ryu...since they know each other). he switched to c-pen because he wasn't as fast as he used to be. he learned, or used RPB, just fine. still kicking a lot of people's butts....including mine when i tried =( we'll do some more filming tomorrow and try some different drills. ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: cls2222
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 1:58am
Is he still playing competitively? I have no doubt in my mind that a player from Korea with that kind of training would be able to use RPB without much of a problem. But, if he was still 30 or so and practicing regularly and going to pro tours, I don't think he would have made the switch at that time. I may have said the wrong things if you were just enjoying yourselves. By the way, I regularly play against a 2300 level J-pen player who uses a Kim Taek Soo with RPB, which he just started using 2-3 years ago, and the tactic I mentioned previously works well against him. Many 2000 level J-pen and traditional C-pen players I know just recently switched to RPB for fun I guess, even though they still regularly go to tournaments, and the tactic works very well against them. Have fun guys! ------------- Korbel Stiga Boost TX |
Posted By: Anton Chigurh
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 2:02am
Just FYI, all this above is almost entirely false. Yes, learning things--almost all things, not just motor skills--becomes more difficult with age. This is not because you cannot learn new things and can only "mimic" new things by putting together already known movements. It's because when a person is young his (or her) synapses are still forming. His brain is more plastic; whereas, older people's brains have established many connections and plasticity somewhat decrements. But these connections can change and new ones can form. To suggest that one cannot learn new things but somehow only sews together already known things to "mimic" something is simply false. Also, it is false that we've "learned pretty much everything we can regarding motor skills" by the age of 25. That age is the average age that the brain completes maturation (but of course it varies). Around that time is when the prefrontal cortex fully myelinates, but that has almost nothing to do with motor output. The prefrontal cortex is highly correlated with emotion regulation and other executive functions, but not motor outputs. Although plasticity diminishes with age, there is no reason to think that people cannot learn new things at a "late" age. Granted, highly competitive players in their mid twenties (or even younger) probably shouldn't change major things in their game, such as grip, etc. But even with age-related diminution in neural plasticity, the adult brain still remains fairly plastic. It simply requires a little more effort to acquire new skills. Just for example, I recently switched from shakehand to penhold. In a roughly 4 months I've surpassed my shakehand skill level with my penhold play. I'm 33 years old. ------------- Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80 |
Posted By: Imago
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 2:08am
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Wow, it's just amazing how good are you in real play, and how bad while doing drills. |
Posted By: cls2222
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 2:14am
Yes, that's completely true, but I didn't want to go that far into explaining it because I was short on time. The reason why I stated that "the brain has learned pretty much everything it can regarding motor skills" is because it is a much, much slower process as one gets older and I wanted to make it clear that changing one's stroke would only detrimentally affect that person's game during the years that they are playing competitively. I also stated "pretty much everything," leaving room for learning. I am planning to write a more in depth article on the mental aspect of TT, using information from psychology and neuroscience to explain "why stuff happens" in the best way I can. Is it OK if I PM you when I write that article? I want to make it clear I do not want to pump false information into people. ------------- Korbel Stiga Boost TX |
Posted By: Imago
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 2:18am
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Playing with the brain is no good. To me, it is better to play with Brian. |
Posted By: Anton Chigurh
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 2:20am
Fair enough. Sure, you can PM me. But if there is a lot of content I would suggest first sending a quick message to make sure my inbox isn't full. I'd hate to have you type a ton of well thought out info only to lose it all when you hit "send" because my inbox is full. ------------- Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80 |
Posted By: Imago
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 2:25am
| We are using special pills to purge the muscle memory and make the process of learning more successful, no matter how old the learner. Hopefully, soon there will be pills for any particular technique. |
Posted By: cls2222
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 2:26am
Thanks a lot. When I saw "Just FYI, all this above is almost entirely false" my pupils dilated  ------------- Korbel Stiga Boost TX |
Posted By: cls2222
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 2:27am
Is what you are saying serious? I never heard about that yet. ------------- Korbel Stiga Boost TX |
Posted By: Imago
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 2:30am
| I am serious. Upsarin + GB + Zhenshen + Honey |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 2:40am
lol i guess i concentrate more during real gameplay than during drills? ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: Anton Chigurh
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 2:51am
I have a training partner who is the same way. He's in the lower 2000s. In drills, he misses shots, unintentionally varies spin pretty drastically, and can barely hit the same region on the table 4 times in a row. Yet, in games he could land the ball on a dime (not literally, of course, but you get my meaning), and he can respond/react to just about anything you send his way. My guess is that some people, when under pressure, think less and just "play" (like my training partner). Other people (like me) tend to think even more under pressure and get in their own way by confusing themselves and slowing their reactions. ------------- Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80 |
Posted By: Vassily
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 5:34am
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My difficulty with continuous drills like that you kinda have to hold back (otherwise the other guy cant block consistently), and the holding back is hard if you are used to simply putting as much power as you safely can on the ball as you normally do in games. Multiball is much easier, just whack away. I feel far better with multiball, more relaxed and smooth, etc. ------------- Nittaku Acoustic FL T05 Acuda S2 2.0mm |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 5:49am
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you would do well to come off the pace by 10%, the reason for the drill you are attempting is to groove your transitional footwork between b/hand and f/hand, its actually far easier to groove yet just as beneficial if you actually play at a pace you can cope with, the footwork required is exactly the same, and you can get into the correct rythmn, its all about building up a fluid tempo, and you guys are not completing anywhere enough circuits of the drill before it breaks down, so start again a little slower, and build you speed up over time. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 6:17am
| Just about learning table tennis later in life we have players that didn't play competition regularly until age 35 or so, lets say they were at 1400 us level then. By mid 40s some of them (not all but quite a few) are able to reach around 2000 us or close enough to it |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 9:58am
great insight there apw! my big problem is getting back to the bh....and i really need to put even more control into my shots. ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: dragon kid
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 11:14am
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I agree with Wiggy. Both of you are not consistent enough with the shots and the blocks. You must not try to hit the fastest or the spinniest shots, that will make it difficult for the blocker. The main thing is consistency and placement. Just find the rhythm and placement where you and your friend are most comfortable with. I did not see all the video (only when you loop and your friend block), but your friend can actually block closer to the table where he can block a bit early with soft hands and place the block to where you want him to put the ball. IMO, traditional PH block is much better for drills like this. ------------- 'Nobody is Perfect. I am Nobody' |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 1:30pm
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yep you guys are right. i need to tone it down more. i'll go down to 50%. it was about 65% in the vid.
------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 06/22/2011 at 4:41pm
Yup I totally agree, and I think this might be why tgh looks worse on drills. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 06/23/2011 at 1:16am
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so harsh yet so true
------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 06/23/2011 at 2:40am
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Vassily
Date Posted: 06/23/2011 at 4:16am
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You can still try to play multiball consistently? You dont HAVE to go banzai 110% attacking with multiball. The feedback is not as obvious in the sense that you can miss alot and not "feel" it, but you can still focus on consistency by keeping track of the landed shots. Sometimes it nice to just get lots of balls coming back no matter what so you can tune yourself back to normal without messing up the other guy's mojo as well and causing a negative cycle of crappiness. Also, Ive noticed that I use a different stroke in pattern drilling than in games because of the need to slow the shot down. If I were to just let the kinetic chain unfurl as in a game, it would be too fast for the other guy to block it back consistently in some sort of pattern, so I sorta "mistime" the shot, which is surely not something good to practice? Either that or I put all the energy into spinning the ball, which doesnt really make it easier to block, nor is it especially good practice anyway since it feels a bit different. The pattern drilling is ok for footwork though I think. Not to start another chinese vs euro war, but I have heard that europeans do the pattern drilling more, while chinese multiball more. Is that true in your experience? The other thing about multiball is that you can decouple the frequency of the balls from how hard you hit, so you can simulate the opponent standing further away from the table, or something like that. Also, problems caused by the relative skill of both players can also be minimized. Some people are just bad at blocking. ------------- Nittaku Acoustic FL T05 Acuda S2 2.0mm |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 06/23/2011 at 4:28am
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Multiball is an option to use as part of a coaching program, its not the answer as to why these guys are inconsistent at what they are trying to achieve, in other words, it won't result in them being able to competently complete 10 unbroken circuits of the drill they are using as an aid to their improvement, to be competent players they need to be able to do this, using multiball as an alternative will only mask the problem.
IMO, multiball is best used for beginners to develope strokes when they are unable to sustain a rally, and for advanced players squeezing time to improve their stroke recovery, in the middle of that, regular drills are far better time spent, after all Multiball does not exist in reality of TT, where a ball comes back in relation to how it went, in multiball, the feeder takes the delivery outside of reality. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 06/23/2011 at 7:23am
This makes good sense. And I am sure there is only so much you can simulate (can't simulate loops) but but how does this assertion stand up to the chinese coaches feeding the children a series of balls in a pattern that matches gameplay? e.g. Wide underspin (that they loop attack) followed by fast topspin to mid (simulating a block). This would be a footwork and technique and tactic drill. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 06/23/2011 at 7:31am
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 06/23/2011 at 9:57pm
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that's why i like the rallies better than multiball. it's more realistic with the ball paths.
------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: dici
Date Posted: 06/23/2011 at 10:23pm
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hm what i can really suggest is that, spent like at least 30mins for warm up practice, which are just Fh to Fh, BH to BH and FH to BH. and what you want to do here is control all your shots into the same spot all the time. Because all these drill requires the partner to have a precise control on the returning the ball, and also the hitter had to hit the ball to the good spot for partner. Just remember that, use the same way to block or perform FH loop all the time. After that, you may want to increase the speed for this 30 mins warm up practice when you get to very familiar. I used to able to do it very fast when like 15~18 years ago, when I still in the school TT team. But not anymore since I have stop for a period, for like 10 years
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Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 06/24/2011 at 1:00am
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man dici....i'm basically in your position from 15-18years ago then. i hope you had good times when on the team. it's a mix of both for me...but mostly good times so far =)
------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 06/24/2011 at 12:06pm
Multi-ball here in Korea is huge and every club has a netted off area, usually 2 tables at the typical 6 table club. My coach seems to get it like you. I see her use more multiball drills with the beginners. I though I thought I did more multiball than I did, but thinking about it, she only gives me 3 MB drills (BH opening, step-in short recieve/stepback BH open, and corner to corner hyperfast blocking drill) The rest are drills at the table where she hits/bocks/whatever, given the drill or combination sequences. Those are done at match pace. Some of the combination drills are for keeping it on the table and rallying, yet some are made to open/move/hit or loop and seek to finish the point. Andy, your comment about using multiball for recovery is cool. One of my MB drills (step-in short push or flick/step back to open on BH) and a couple table drills emphisize and train the recovery. The training here seems to really accellerate your level and skills, all without any noticeable change in play week to week, however when you look at what you do 1-3 months later, the change is obvious. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: gatorling
Date Posted: 06/24/2011 at 1:26pm
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Feeding good multi-ball takes a lot of skill. To me the benefits of multi-ball is so that the coach can simulate many aspects of the game without great physical exertion on his point. He can simulate an opponent that can return EVERYTHING that you give to him and never grows tired or slow. The coach can instantly increase the pace or slow it down, attack weak spots or simulate a mistake. But I think that level of multi-ball is used once you hit the expert level (I would say 2300/2400 USATT). That level of multi-ball is to push the limits of a player who is already at the top of his game and is no longer challenged by a partner who simply blocks..or whose returns are so powerful that the blocker has difficulty placing the return. I agree with Andy, multi-ball is best used when grooving initial strokes (when you are very inconsistent and the coach needs to focus on your form and not on blocking the ball return) and when you are at an expert level (where the coach might not be able to keep up with you anymore and must use multi-ball to simulate an unbeatable opponent). Everything else in the middle will be better served with a rallying partner. |
Posted By: ZJKandMLfan
Date Posted: 06/25/2011 at 3:14pm
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tuan, just out of curiosity, i was watching some of ur practice matches. ur forehand is much better than ur bh. i feel that ur game is very forehand oriented. You have an aggresive looping forehand and a passive backhand. That's a great style to play but the thing is, you need to stay close to the table. people that loop towards ur backhand give you lots of trouble because ur far and u can't control the topspin from that far. if u play closer, u will find it easier to control the spin and block better. Also with this great style you play, you need to establish a good early attack. you don't necessarily haev to kill on ur first shot but loop with a higher arc, get the ball on the table and then start pounding away. players generally only get better by forcing themselves to think of better ways to set up their attack whether it's serving short then attacking or playing the ball short off ur opponents attack. just my 2 cents ------------- Blade: Photino FH: Donic Acuda S1, MAX BH: Tenergy 64, MAX |