Friendly Match US1260 vs US1537
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Topic: Friendly Match US1260 vs US1537
Posted By: icontek
Subject: Friendly Match US1260 vs US1537
Date Posted: 11/15/2011 at 11:08pm
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After about 15 or 20 friendly matches in the last two years, (and maybe 2 wins) I'm think I am starting to get the hang of an opponent who has a much more diverse set of "tools" at his disposal than I am used to playing against. Last night I split matches (best of 3, winning 2-1 and losing 1-2). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSCff9vBbA - This is the match that I lost While most of the players at my lowly level have 1 or 2 things that they can do reasonably well (and if they are lucky, maybe one thing that stands out), perhaps several things that they are "ok" at, they have plenty of missing fundamentals. From what I can see I this also is true of the majority of folks that I play in the 1400-1600 range as well. The strengths may be stronger, and/or there may be fewer holes in their games, but they are all very "beatable", at least in friendly matches, because it's possible to isolate their weaknesses or deny them opportunities to use their strengths. However, this particular US1500+ opponent has a boatload of things that he does reasonably well (push, chop, lob, loop against underspin) and a solid BH service receive (very few errors over two matches) and quite a bit of serve variation. To see more of my opponents play style (vs a pips out pick hitter): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at2FvkZ5VMQ&feature=related - CLICK HERE (fixed) And as a slowly reforming 3rd ball/push-pick hitter myself, it's interesting to see what sort of points I can win against this lobby/defensive style; and how to make him uncomfortable/confused. As a side note: I'd like to figure out how to receive serve the way he does. He uses an inverted BH push against almost every serve to his BH, and is able to even push my top-side serves low and safe. His push motion is like the bottom half of a C, and acts like a push-block/drop shot against topspin and also returns underspin well with virtually the same motion. And because of his chop and lob, he's one of the few opponents who will actually set me up to start looping; most players at and above my level try and prevent me from using my FH loop or drive because they lack the blocking skills to return the ball consistently. In fact, Alan wants me to loop, so he can chop it back with heavy underspin, or lob it with heavier side top. What I enjoy most about playing him is that I have time to move to be successful. I already have a small checklist of things that were causing some errors/discomfort for me, but I'll be glad to take additional criticism. Immediate things to fix - in no particular order: 1) elbow is coming up on followthrough 2) backswing needs to be more consistent (timing and size relative to incoming ball) 3) Recovery time needs to improve 4) stance needs to stay lower What worked: 1) BH topspin is finally coming into matchplay. I was able to take control of points with it, sometimes hit winners. 2) FH loop got some use (this is rare in matchplay) 3) I could force him to attack and out of his comfort zone of defending (playing his weakness against my weakness, instead of my strength against his strength). What I learned: 1) As long as I don't spend too much of the point inside the table, my backhand topspin can keep me in the point, even if I need to use sidespin to prevent counterattacks. 2) Quality service return is at least as important as service. 3) It's possible to goad some "control players" into taking risks and making errors (and turn their core strategy against them). ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Replies:
Posted By: melarimsa
Date Posted: 11/15/2011 at 11:11pm
Video________________________________  ------------- http://www.youtube.com/100NiTenis" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/100NiTenis |
Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 11/15/2011 at 11:46pm
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How does he do in receiving tomahawk serves? Fh & Bh? -------------  Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: dabookerman
Date Posted: 11/16/2011 at 2:54pm
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It sounds like I have some of the same issues, so post the video soon. :) ------------- Photino FL Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/16/2011 at 9:49pm
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link posted. sorry for the delay. no edits, just raw game footage. i'll get highlights marked in the comment field to save time. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: melarimsa
Date Posted: 11/16/2011 at 9:54pm
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Nice video. You right about your negative points ... ------------- http://www.youtube.com/100NiTenis" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/100NiTenis |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 11/16/2011 at 10:03pm
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1. When pushes goes into net, should open racket more and push forward. 2. bh loop against backspin, focus more on brushing the ball on the back of the ball with confidence, don't rely on rolling it back. 3.try playing with shorts, not pants. Easier to move and focus on footwork. |
Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 11/16/2011 at 10:12pm
| First thing I see within seconds that's a major flaw in your game is running backwards away from the ball, a lot of players stuck on a low level do that. Don't do that ever, that's the first thing. Now I'll watch the rest. No wait.. your the guy up the far end right? discount that then |
Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: 11/16/2011 at 10:25pm
Some comments: - your ready position is BH oriented. I would change it to be neutral or slightly FH oriented - you need to stay lower. - when you have to push get your nose as close to the ball as possible. The further from yourself the hand use when you push the less precision you have - spin the ball. Use spin to change bounce and placement - move. Specifically, move both feet. When moving to the right, start with the left foot. When moving to the left, start with the right foot. - relax your grip. Your wrist is too stiff. ILya ------------- BTY Mazunov ST Dignics 05 |
icontek wrote:Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 11/16/2011 at 10:26pm
| Ok if you are the guy up the far end what I think you are. Then that lifted backhand shot you do sometimes, I don't like that, you could hit a much faster topspin over the top of the ball on all those which would be more effective. Also although you are clearly a backhand orientated player, the action you have on your forehand and the mount of balls that are going long I think you would play considerably better with Hurricane 2 at this stage, you might change your stroke to suit the H3 later but right now naturally it's going to suit a lower rubber, that would also help you learn to get some more arm speed. Instead of being worried about the ball going long (you never want to have to worry about that) you would only have to worry about it going in the net and that only improves your stroke rather than ruin it, that's something to think about. Otherwise I mean, two weeks coaching and you would easily beat the guy you are playing, nothing really wrong for your level, you just want some more agression really, every time he's giving you a lob that should be point over either on speed or the angle, take your pick just don't go slow down the middle of the table like you are now |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/16/2011 at 10:55pm
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Sorry, yeah, I'm the guy in the red. I don't play TT in White or Orange shirts :) I'll respond more to technique and tactics feedback as it accumulates and trending starts to develop. I don't think I am ready to play H2; brief stints with it were pretty unforgiving. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 11/16/2011 at 11:51pm
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Unforgiving is really what you need though to teach you a stronger stroke. When I'm teaching someone to loop well against backspin I use multiball and feed them 100, 200, 400 balls whatever it takes with heavy backspin on them until they learn what kind of stroke you need to make the shot, it only takes a few minutes to learn the basics of any shots when you are hitting that many balls. I'd highly recommend you buy a couple hundred balls and make a ball picker uper. That is the fastest way anyone can improve. I wish I could have a few training sessions with you because I think it would be quite easy to make big gains. The main thing when the guy lobs, you need to hit it to an area on the table where he isn't, preferably to the extremist angle away from where ever is bat is. Then you can go again straight into his body and once he's planted there go the extreme other side. Things like this but in this guys case since he's a slow guy you should be able to hit straight past him on that first ball without any problem. Maybe someone could download the movie and re upload it with captions on what would have been the preferable shot to make and where to put the next ball. Oh yeah again don't hit those nothing balls from the backhand where you just lift the ball over the net, both of you are doing them and it's not a shot you ever see a stronger play use. From that exact same spot you can flip, heavy chop or low and short push all of which are 10 times more effective, some of the topspin play from your backhand is quite good so you may as well use it whenever you can and develop that some more. I'll also add there are things like the loop he hits at 5:20 that you sighted as soon as he hit it yet grabed the ball rather than hitting a backhand.... why? you had all the time in the world to hop over there and cream on off the backhand or at least make a positive block down the line, not to mention you could have ripped the serve straight back at him off the first ball, those are the kind of shots you need to at least attempt even if most of them miss at first. Attempt enough of them and sooner or later most of them will go on and you'll be a 2000 point player before you knew what was happening
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Posted By: davidz
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 12:41am
I strongly agree with this. Do not worry about style and other minor stuff. It is more important to be very good at a few basic skills, such as push, block and loop. If any single skill reaches high level (e.g., 1700, or 2000), you can improve your game greately. ------------- PG7 (Skyline 2, LKT XP) YEO (Skyline 2, Skyline 3) |
Posted By: Vassily
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 12:42am
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For service receive, you might want to stand back a bit, then just before they serve you can move forward a little to get your feet moving, which helps set the tone and get the feet moving for the rest of the point. At the moment, you are standing quite "heavy" with feet concreted to the ground in quite a wide stance, and then not really moving much. Wider stances are more stable, but can be a bit harder to move around depending on leg strength. You did some quite hard BHs and quite soft FHs. Maybe the other way around is better. I get the feeling your BHs are kinda "hail mary", you dont really know if its going to go on or not. Just hit them softer and guide them forward more rather than snatch at them. Same on FHs, go forward more and trust the topspin to put the ball onto the table. If you overshoot the table, convert more of the speed to spin, rather than hitting softer. ------------- Nittaku Acoustic FL T05 Acuda S2 2.0mm |
Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 1:01am
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That opponent of yours is exactly what you need to improve. He is like a punching bag. Everything he returns screams SMACK ME, SMACK ME SO HARD THAT YOU CRACK THE BALL! You need to get a couple of lessons from a coach just to show you the strokes. Then you practice them yourself. But right now your strokes are very far from the real thing. It's not the problem that you miss with these shots. Even if you make them in, these are all the wrong shots so don't try to make them consistent. Your FH needs to losen, open the arm in the elbow so its almost straight, that swing it around your shoulder, and swing from the waist as well. Right now u don't move anything other than your forearm forward. Your BH is similar. You did make a couple of lose lobbish BH loops, but more often than not it was just a flat hit forward on a ball that had no chance clearing the net without topspin. I gota do a video of myself these days too. I feel I've been criticizing people a lot with my miserable 1500, and need to give them a chance to rip me apart : ) ------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: loop+loop
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 2:26am
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Strangely I don't hear any clicking sound from your shots. Your partner inclusive. Practice more until you feel the ball with click sounds.
For your BH, bend your body more and give a longer stroke. |
Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 2:47am
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He's using H3 it doesn't click no matter how hard you hit it unless it's tuned/glued. He's not hitting the ball hard enough for a tensor to click either but that's not a real problem, well it's part of the problem but the main thing is making ending the point your goal rather than just thinking about keeping the ball in play. Improving to 1700us from where you are doesn't have to be a big deal or a big change, you could just learn to chop well and chop this guy off 11-0 if you wanted or block him off even. But the better goal is to develop an allround game where you can do anything you might need to do, best way to do that is go for everything that presents itself + lots of multiball to condition your muscles and mind into hitting those shots with accuracy. Again buy those balls ! and lots of them (seriously do that)
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Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 8:10am
Well said. A great practice opponent to constantly loop against. It seems you try to hit 2 consecutive loops, then you push. Try looping 10 in a row with him. Slow looping is actually very easy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS7yyQ4t6eI 2:45 watch this girls technique, her blade angle, contact, body. You can do the same with your backhand, just need different footwork. Slow looping is the key to the power loop. Once you are able to slow loop 10 in a row with him, power looping will come much easier.
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Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 9:03am
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icontek, the biggest problem I see isn't with your technique per se, but your attitude. Your rallies with this guy are already way too long, especially for your levels. This means that neither of you is aggressive enough, instead choosing to stick with shots that you're already comfortable with. What you need to start doing is attempting more shots that you're NOT comfortable with, and stop caring about winning the game. I saw you hit some nice forehands against him, you need to keep doing that instead of playing slow attacks or even blocks against his lobs and high blocks. I'd recommend you focusing on that, the aggressiveness, first. I'm an improving player like you(you seem a good level above your latest rating), so I know that making changes takes a lot of focus, so don't try to improve too many things at once. Focus on at MOST 2 things at a time, such as more aggressive FH right now. His returns are often slow, so you might be able to squeeze in a second thing, like a BH loop(spin first, speed after you can spin loop consistently). I'm trying to improve footwork, recovery, and get a longer backswing myself, and I'm finding it very difficult to remember all three things in game situation. So, you should start by just focusing on one thing while you're playing: every ball that comes at you high, loop it back with some aggression. You'll do worse than you usually do to start, but that's the price to pay for a faster improvement. With your dedication, you'll be beating that guy regularly in no time at all! ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 10:14am
| Whoa! Nice video. I see that you have completely revamped your game from close to the table pushing to control the rally from further away. It takes a lot of dedication to do so, so congratulation to you. You do look more comfortable and relax in your game now compare to before, and I like it. Just note that now you play further from the table, which give you more time to react, but it will also give your opponent more time to react as well, so you need to add in some spin, or off the bounce quick return to surprise your opponent :). I really like your control game, I think you are on the right track for improvement. |
Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 10:22am
| dingyibvs has the exact right mental attitude to make it to 2000us asap, that's all you need. A willingness to live on the edge and take yourself to places you are not comfortable with. If you don't or can't flip serves then flip every serve you can get a bat on until it's second nature. If you can't hit hard loops then just force yourself to go to the limit every time until the speed limit resets higher. Push yourself to the edge :) |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 10:58am
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I'm with dingyibvs on this one. I think you're way too passive. I only watched the first game, and I was surprised by the patience on both sides. There were a ton of opportunities by you and your opponent to attack with authority that weren't taken. It seemed like neither of you wanted to control the point. In other words, it seemed like your goal was to not lose (by playing the safe, just keep it on the table, shots) instead of trying to win by controlling the points.
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Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 12:23pm
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I only watched the first match, and there's no way you should have lost that match. From what I can see, your opponent's strength is simply getting the ball back until you miss. I don't think he did anything particularly well except that. And while that could be a good strategy, he's not implementing it with very high quality shots. Those medium high sorta-loop lobs he was giving you were screaming, "smack me baby!" I was very surprised at how many loose lobs he made (even when you weren't really pressuring him) that you didn't attack. Sometimes you let them get low and just returned them with no aggression. Sometime you blocked them with your backhand (????) straight down but with little pace. You almost never (maybe never) creamed them. Some of those should have been bounced to the ceiling. This is, now doubt, why he lobbed a lot to your backhand even when you weren't pressuring him. Its a safe shot that you are not likely to attack. Dude! I work hard to get an opponent to give me something half that easy to attack - and he's just handing it to you... As others have pointed out, you are backhand oriented. I'm not a coach, but if I were coaching you I'd put all my initial effort into developing three forehand shots and teaching you to turn the corner on your backhand. I wouldn't work on your backhand at all at this time. You are comfortable with it and it can take care of itself for now. Your forehand needs some TLC. You need a good solid forehand counter, loop and smash and the desire/motivation to step around your backhand. My experience is that I only step around my backhand when I'm looking for the opportunity. That's where the motivation comes in. You gotta like that idea or you won't do it much. With just a forehand smash and the willingness to step around your backhand, I think you beat this guy regularly. Get low. Develop a decent loop. Get someone to work the Faulkenberg drill with you. That's the basic training outline IMO. Further notes: 1) I agree that this is a good player for you to work on your game with because what he gives you is an invite to use a forehand attack - something you need to work on. 2) This guy is a much better defender than attacker - at least based on watching that one short match. He only won one point with an aggressive attack, and that was largely because he placed the ball very well on that shot. He lost four points outright with aggressive attacks and made two decent attacks, but you returned them and he went defensive again. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 12:33pm
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I've got to say I like your composure in these games. Not letting yourself get distracted by ranting about your technique, nets/edges, talking to yourself in the first person i.e. ("would you hit the g*****n ball) and the like is, in my opinion, just as important as stroke development. Another positive is you seem to be able to give yourself time to get to, and hit the ball. I agree strongly with the use of multiball for your training. You are going to need massive amounts of repetition to improve all your basic and advanced strokes. Not to mention your footwork. You can get more stroke repetition in 5 minutes of multibal than you can in a hour or more of normal practice/play. It is one of, if not the most effective use of your training time. Example: I put in about 2-3 MB sessions a week. I usually do about 1k-2k loop strokes per session(most of this is footwork) I have been working mostly on my loop stroke for the past 2-1/2 months. That's approximately 30k strokes. That is probably more than most people do in a year of normal play(usatt 1300-1500). Now imagine, a CNT player probably does that in week. Just for that one stroke. not to mention competition. Good quality repetition is king if you want get basic strokes down. With regard to being more aggressive. Imo the reason people are tentative is because they don't have the confidence in their attacking strokes. How do you get said confidence? Repetition.
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Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 12:37pm
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I like the shots to the edge of the table that made your opponent move. If you followed that up with a shot to the other side I doubt your opponent could do more than watch the ball go by.
------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 1:56pm
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Great feedback and thank you all for your time on this!
I went into this match exploring tactics; it's a good idea to watch the second video to see how much stronger my opponent plays when he is comfortable. I posted a while back that I sometimes have difficulty getting into a practice mindset, and I think the rush of winning the first match had me more focused on taking him out of his game and rhythm than actually practicing technique... I don't mean to make excuses for my game, just to provide some context for why I was trying to lure him into attacking. I am a horrible defender, but I wanted to see how my weakness posited with his weakness. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 2:24pm
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The second "click here" link just takes us to this thread. I have no idea where the second match is. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 7:03pm
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Sorry! Fixed link. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 7:06pm
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I don't think you should be losing to either player. Both are very non-threatening. Neither attack when given the chance. Don't bother to finish the shot even for popups. I'm willing to bet a nice slow spinny loop will be enough to finish the point. And in order to do this shot...you need to bend those knees. ------------- Custom Walnut 7-ply DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40° BTY T64 210g |
Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 7:53pm
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imo icontek i would suggest you going with a lp ox in the bh. to progress and being more competitive. in parallel can do falknb. and drills and all the advice in this thread. this is my advice to be effective and more competitive. there is nothing wrong in not looking good. but i wouldn't go to be what it can not be. ------------- EJ Club. MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh);  InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Posted By: mikepong
Date Posted: 11/17/2011 at 9:05pm
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be more aggressive in your shots, hit those high returns with pace and spin and dont just push them back, your form is better than theirs ------------- Viscaria FH: Tenergy 05 black BH: Tenergy 05 red |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/18/2011 at 8:07am
Tried it during EJ phase. 4 or 5 different models. Couldn't learn to control them :( ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 11/18/2011 at 9:49am
Is he using an LP? Thtat's usually indiacitive of a very low friction
LP... usually with no sponge. The motion of chop block and push can be made very similar. Useful if your opponents starts to day dream. Contact is made more on the bottom of the ball receiving underspin and more on the back of the ball with topspin. Fabian Akerstrom does this well during rallies. Our club is replete with OX LP players at the 1500 level.------------- Timo ALC FL Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: 11/18/2011 at 11:55am
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icontek, which part of the country are you in? ------------- BTY Mazunov ST Dignics 05 |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 11/18/2011 at 12:58pm
I agree that slow spinny loops are necessary but Alan seems to be good enough to get those back. I wouldn't expect to win the point from one spinny loop but Alan is not fast enough to handle shots angled off of one side of the table and then the other. That is why I liked Icontek's shots to the side edges of the table. I would do one loop get the the opponent to back up and then start flat hitting the high returns. I agree with those that say getting more aggressive is what is required. Make the other guy run. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/18/2011 at 1:39pm
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I'm in maine. I have no aspirations greater than 1700 as there are no active players above 2000 here.
Most of the players who broke 1800 actually quit the game due to lack of competition at their level. In fact 1600 is kind of the sweet spot where there are enough players around that level to keep things interesting. I agree that aggression will help even my development, and that increasing the pressure on my opponent should yield good results. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 11/18/2011 at 1:55pm
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Well, for one thing I think you have a GREAT setup. Virtuoso has great feel and feedback, and your choices for BH and FH rubbers are just perfect in my opinion. It is a very loopy setup. 1700 can take years to get, so don't worry about improving too fast or too much :) I'd be proud to get there myself. But there are many players at my club with 'fading careers' that never got there : ) We have many players on any level up to 2300 in our club. As a matter of fact if I get to 1700 it will be easier to get matches, because now people frown when I challenge them :( ------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 11/18/2011 at 5:00pm
If the loop is spinny enough, then he surely won't be able to block it. Even then icontek can just continuously loop until he wins the point since Alan isn't going to attack that loop. It's going to be exactly like drilling. ------------- Custom Walnut 7-ply DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40° BTY T64 210g |
Posted By: dabookerman
Date Posted: 11/18/2011 at 5:41pm
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I have a few thoughts, too. Thanks for posting the second video; the first video looks awkward while it looks like both of you are playing much more seriously in the second.
It looks like you are treating your serve simply as a way to begin a point (i.e. way too casually). Get down lower over the ball and use your serve to win points outright and/or accentuate the rest of your point strategy. Make sure to keep your knees bent and stay in good position for your strokes throughout the points. Watch out for your flying shoulder. This is a problem that I struggle with and it is best rectified through multi-ball drills. It can also help to play with a quick counter hitter. The problem of playing a defensive player is that it is easy to overhit and lose your form. Try thinking about this - the swing should rotate around the center of your body so have the the rotation drive your arm motion rather than vice versa - that thought helps keep me balanced. Ironically, this entire motion from one to the next is why you have BOTH an erratic FH and play BH oriented. You need to develop better balance between the two shots. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish with the BH shots as others have mentioned. Are those supposed to be pushes? Kudos for posting! ------------- Photino FL Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 11/18/2011 at 6:46pm
That works against lower level players but at 1500 I bet Alan knows enough to close the paddle a little when he sees a spinny loop coming his way. icontek would need to make some 1500 level loop kills to get away with winning against a good defender with just one shot.
It isn't necessary to loop after icontek has gained and seized the advantage. Alan's returns are so high one can simply flat hit and trade spin for speed. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/18/2011 at 9:34pm
That's not me in the second video. He looks more serious in the second video because his opponent is more predictable. He looks uncomfortable against me in the first video because he doesn't know whether I will attack or simply bloop it over to lure him into making a mistake. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: dabookerman
Date Posted: 11/19/2011 at 6:32pm
sorry...  I'll watch that one again. ------------- Photino FL Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 11/19/2011 at 6:55pm
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The whole blocking loops thing is a bit like serving, you serve a sidespin to a beginner and you will win the point, at a certain (low) level predictable spin no matter how much of it there is becomes just another ball. The same thing happens with loops, you get to a point where no matter how much spin is on them if the opponent can get to the ball on balance and in time you can be 100% sure it's a non effective shot, once again you get back the the same old place of having to win the point on placement and getting the ball *past* the guy. I'm quite sure you can still win 90% of loops outright against a 1500 level guy if you are well over 2000 even hit straight to him but another 1500 level player just isn't going to have that quality of stroke
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Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 11/19/2011 at 6:55pm
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So I watched half of the 2nd video and I can't force myself to watch the rest of it. Outside of basement players it is the 2nd most boring match I have ever seen. Push, push, push, fish, push, finally something ridiculously high - hit. The pushes weren't even strategically placed - all were towards the center of the table. Someone please teach these guys how to attack underspin. And why were there NO short serves? Not a single one. Against the guy you played...just loop to his backhand side. He doesn't play close to the table so you'll have plenty of time to recover if he returns it. If he returns it, it will likely be a chop/fish because he doesn't do much else w/ his BH. Put the next ball short to his FH side and make him run. If I had to guess - a fast loop and the point is over.
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Posted By: dabookerman
Date Posted: 11/19/2011 at 7:09pm
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I would do more to punish the loose lobs. I would also work more on attacking his FH with your serve. Since these are not tournament matches, you might use the match to focus on a specific tactic like killing the lobs. ------------- Photino FL Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 11/19/2011 at 9:00pm
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Still improving I see, your backhand is working at times when the ball comes to the right place, so be ready to move to get more shots in, you a serving for a reason but just need some better third ball finishes. As you are a backhand player (maybe unintentional) you tend to follow a middle ball witha backhand shot rather than piviting, also because you take it with your backhand you end up square to the table and this reduces your ablility to do a better forehand, the best way is to just tell yourself to do forehands and you will play better loops, drives and smacks ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: roar
Date Posted: 11/23/2011 at 1:36pm
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I hope you don't take it as rude to suggest you watch a professional like Ma Long and mimic their movements. Right now you look like you're just being lazy on a lot of things you could easily remedy: 1. If the ball is chopped or pushed long enough that it's able to be attacked, then get under it and use topspin. 2. Looks like you're standing on your heels in quite a few spots. 3. Stop trying to backhand from far away and move to your forehand. Admittedly, you're playing in a small space but the top professionals ALWAYS prefer to move to their forehands when attacking a chop or a lob. 4. Keep your knees bent. 5. Quit letting your opponent serve when you're still walking back to the table - you always wait for him, why not expect the same courtesy? |
Posted By: dabookerman
Date Posted: 11/23/2011 at 11:24pm
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I also noticed that it appears that your opponent is rushing to serve to you. I play a few folks like that and make sure that I double-bounce my tosses of the ball back to them. ------------- Photino FL Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 11/24/2011 at 2:29am
I go one step further at times. I hold the ball until I'm about 90% set and then toss it to them. That usually makes the point. You can, of course, hold your hand up to signal that you aren't ready when they start the quick serve, but I think it is better to just head it off at the pass. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/24/2011 at 10:22am
I agree with the lazy comment. I am lead of foot. Transitioning from a stand at the table push/pick hit game to a more allround game means I need to learn very different movements; depth is even more challenging than side to side. The knees bent is a work in progress, I usually use my serve receive to get low and then adjust height accordingly. Thanks to all the players who pointed out that my opponent serves before I was ready; I remember that in game now, and just noticed it on my 3rd watch of the video. Does anyone have tips for learning to adjust depth position? I've found that if my serve receive is 2 feet from table it's possible still to step in for short stuff and receiving long serves is easier. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: chrisgrace
Date Posted: 11/24/2011 at 9:04pm
| I have no tips, just wanted to say thanks for posting the thread. It's very helpful to read about someone else trying to improve their game. |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 12:32am
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Followup: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8KHAlDXnwY - Uploaded a recent 2-1 win against the same player. I tried to be more Forehand Aggressive and had a Hurricane 3 relapse (for the beauty of One and Done drives). I never realized how tough it is to play in 50 degree weather :) I was wearing gloves to start with I think. Basically, this style of push-pickhit is how I've played for years. I wait for people to make a mistake and then try to end the point with single shot. The original post is a departure from my "normal" game. I tried pushing long/fast deep with BH to better setup my FH. It mostly worked. I think I missed every BH topspin except http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U8KHAlDXnwY#t=317s - this one. . I can't say that I successfully integrated any other feedback. Just FH attacked earlier and it won me more points than it lost. I'll probably go back to TinArc, but I still don't understand the players who say that H3 Neo Provincial is slow on drives. It doesn't feel slow when I muscle the ball... It just feels slow every other stroke :) ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 8:47am
Most of what I said last time still holds true. You were more aggressive on the high balls, but that's it. With how both of you were returning serves, this should have been a 3rd ball attack highlight reel.
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Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 9:10am
I think I like your earlier video better though, at lease in the other video you take the advantage of your strong BH. In this video I still see you still play your BH around 90% of the time, but without the aggressiveness. Your FH looks good, but you waited forever before you unleased one, against a more aggressive player you may not get that chance. I am BH dominant too, not as much as you, but I tend to use BH a bit more than I should, and like you, I hesitant to attack on FH. My coach help me fix it by making me loose the point, if I am in position and don't attack on the FH side, and it helps a lot, now since I am going to loose the point anyway, I just 'swing baby swing'  .BTW - since you seem to care so much about legal service, make note that some of your toss on the BH serve is quite low, looks like you are rushing to get ready for the next ball or something. I do this too, but did not realize until someone pointed it out...
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 9:44am
| My only advice (I am about the same level as you are but rapidly improving) is to practice with faster rubbers *if* you have stronger players to each you the technique. Your real problem is that you don't have stronger players to work with - the people who are criticizing you from afar take those things for granted. |
Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 12:08pm
I come to New Hampshire a couple of times a year (around Manchester/Nashua area). Is that close enough to where you are for us to meet for a practice? I have been talking to you on the internet on and off for years and now that I have seen a few videos, there are a couple of details of your game that I am just itching to try to fix. ILya ------------- BTY Mazunov ST Dignics 05 |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 12:24pm
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I agree with hookumsnivy's and mhnh007's comments.
I don't agree with NextLevel. It isn't the rubber. Icontek needs to think differently (aggressively). I can think aggressively with Reflectoid on my FH or with a hard bat. Icontek needs a different opponent that plays very aggressively. Such an opponent would not give you much of a chance to push more than once before putting him on the defensive. There was way too much pushing. Even then the pushing could have be directed at the edges of the table but it wasn't most of the time. There are way too many long serves that simply got pushed back. There are times when the ball comes back so slowly that you have time to step around the ball and hit it hard with your FH. I did like the part where Alan showed some frustration. Alan wasn't playing as well as in the first video. Alan made a few good shots from way back in the first video. You got some good breaks with the net too. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: dabookerman
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 2:30pm
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I agree with the comments about too much pushing. I know that you were critical of your BH offense, but keep in mind that you still need to work on those techniques in matches (I can understand if this was a "let me put it all together" match since you were playing a higher rated rival, though). One thing that stood out to me on some points was that you are beginning your stroke (especially on the FH side) with too much of an angle in your wrist. You can see examples of this right off the bat at around 30 and 40 seconds. Since I'm not drawing a picture, the easiest way to explain it is if you were to hold your paddle and stretch your arm out in front of you, there should be nearly a straight line from your elbow through your paddle. You'll have to point your fingers down to the floor in order to do this. Said another way, there should be a roughly 180 degree angle between the handle of your paddle and your forearm, but on some of your shots you begin with a 90 degree angle. The ideal wrist position when you start your stroke is 180 degrees or else you will limit your range of motion and consequentially your spin and power. Is the other guy going into labor at times?  ------------- Photino FL Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 3:33pm
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Just hit your backhand drives from in front of you, ie if the ball is going to your left just move over and take from in front of you. Your timing and success rate will go up (Im a ITTF level 1 registerd coach) just for fun have a backhand to backhand rally with a mate and take everything in front of your bellybutton and see what happens ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 12/24/2011 at 12:34am
Who's giving birth in the background?  I see good growth, much more aggressive on the FH. Of course you didn't integrate any other feedback, it's really, really tough to change your mentality on more than one aspect at a time because it takes so much focus. Take your time, don't try to change everything at once, and you'll see results pretty fast. You can probably see some tangible improvements in two weeks, and in a couple of months your mentality will be changed almost 100% of the time if you focus. By then you can work on the next aspect, but you still gotta watch out for the occasional times when you slip back to old habits. It takes many months for the new mentality to become second nature. Have something to work on every time you play, be goal-oriented, and you'll zoom up the ratings chart as fast as a heavily coached junior with pushy parents! And don't worry about people's comments regarding the H3Neo. It's got a hard sponge that can only be unleashed when you take the effort to really dig into the sponge. It's like hitting a baseball with a baseball bat vs. a trampoline. If you just bounce the ball on them, the trampoline will seem faster, but try hitting a home run with it! ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 12/24/2011 at 12:51am
| lmao at your opponent, hes pretty funny. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 12/24/2011 at 1:43am
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Hi, Thanks for sharing your video. Here is what I would recommend that you focus on (this and nothing else for the next few months): 1) Conditioning: you need to be in an athletic position at all times. That means, feet wider apart, on the balls of your feets, leaning slightly forward, and slightly bent at the waist. This is imperative to see the ball correctly, get to the ball in a correct position, and hitting the ball with the maximum speed. Some of the balls that are being returned to you can be smashed right by the opponent if you had position and speed in your shots. 2) Speed: Speed overcomes spin and everything else. That is why the Chinese practice speed. Look at the videos of coachtt123 on youtube. Find the ball in your power zone and hit it using a short forward topspin arc using the torque of your body. Feel your body winding up inside, nice and strong, and then release it into the point of contact. Practice this feeling over and over again. You can shadow practice in front of a mirror. Fast, faster, faster! Take a look at your videos and compare it to your favorite player. Don't be satisfied until you see that sudden release of power into the ball. Speed in releasing and recovery will improve your game dramatically. This is what I am solely working on right now in my game. 3) Footwork: Stay on the balls of your feet, get to the ball correctly, and hit every forehand with that same motion (beautiful arc) that you use in your warm-ups. Don't give up! Keep moving and get to that ball. Then turn your body using that athletic turn and release it into that ball! Get good topsin and drive it right past your opponent. If he hits it back, then keep training until he learns that lob means a lost point. One smash and kill it right past him. There is a 1900 player at the club I go to who can whip me with no problem for a variety of reasons. But if there is a lob, I smash it right past him. Next time I see a video, I want to see that power smash that is the result of conditioning, speed and great footwork! Good luck! |
Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 12/24/2011 at 2:12am
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I noticed in this vid something I never noticed in the others - your fh mechanics are much much worse than I thought. Instead of looping the ball by swinging your arms, snapping elbow, or snapping wrist, you extend your arm forward to hit the ball. YOUR ELBOWS ARE ALWAYS BENT BEFORE YOU START YOUR STROKE!!!! How can you possibly get any power? The only options you have then are only rotating your torso or extending your arms - both of which you will do instead of swing into the ball. Because you do that, the chances of landing a ball is slim. No wonder your game consist of excessive pushing. Until you get a ball that is smashable, you don't even loop since your mechanics don't even allow you to. Having power to put into your stroke lets you create spin, speed, or ideally a combination of both. You have completely restricted your own movement so you can't do either. This also applies to how you hit bh also. Instead of naturally unwinding your arm while hitting a bh, you keep it retracted so all you are left is a weak bump. Don't expect to be able to learn a flick any time soon until you break this habit. As of stroke mechanics, this is one of the worst flaws. This and not being able to create power from your legs. ------------- Custom Walnut 7-ply DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40° BTY T64 210g |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 12/24/2011 at 2:22am
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Observe Jean Philippe Gatien in slow motion (interspersed in the video). Observe how he achieves spin and speed. This is classic athletic motion which is used in all sports including martial arts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwZ6FDCTMcQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwZ6FDCTMcQ Compare to the modern tennis forehand stroke: http://lockandrolltennis.com/forehand/ - http://lockandrolltennis.com/forehand/ Here Cheng Yinghua gives some instruction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iUpxvfAEw4&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iUpxvfAEw4&feature=related
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/25/2011 at 4:23pm
Short replies are liable to be misinterpreted. My comment had very little to do with the rubber. My comment had more to do with that he needed to work with stronger players and in the absence of stronger players, he had to regularly change equipment to understand how to improve his stroke. Picking equipment that he is comfortable with will never force him to change his game. However, learning to keep the ball on the table with faster rubbers will give him far greater margin for error when he goes back to slower rubbers. It is the same tip recommended for serving - increase the risk of your serves in practice and it translates over to your game. The one thing that forces you to change your game is playing against stronger players and picking up tips and corrections from them. Most people who are responding with comments from afar like yours (he needs to be more aggressive etc.) underestimate the role of stronger players in your development. I think the rest of your response points that out. The other thing that makes these comments a bit unfair is that he is playing a defensive player and a defensive player makes everyone look good. What would be more insightful would be how Icontek would match up against a mid-distance looper. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/25/2011 at 4:29pm
The forehand comment is very true - however, I have an equally bad stroke and I have worked for almost 6 months to improve my patience in waiting for the ball to come off the table and use my waist and legs to add power into the shot and this is with a 2400 coach that I pay $25 per lesson and the instruction and side comments of all the 1200-2200 players at my club. Developing a good forehand loop is very difficult for someone who has not been correctly trained. I've been there so I understand what he is going through much more than people who take for granted all the things that Icontek doesn't have. If Icontek has the resources, he should spend some time getting professional coaching and that will solve his problems. Otherwise, more limited recommendations make sense. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/25/2011 at 4:40pm
Icontek, If you have a robot, I recommend you study and implement these videos. I developed bad technique as a child so I'm used to reaching out in front of me for the ball like you and for this same reason, my backhand is much better than my forehand (like for you). What you need to realize is that very often, you can wait for the ball to enter your "hitting zone" and take it there. However, it takes excruciating practice (patience mostly), problems with your shoulder and other issues to realize that there is no alternative way to loop properly. However, with a robot, it is not that hard to learn. When you start to take the ball from the same spot ( a spot closer to your body line where you can generate power, as oppsed to reaching out for it in front of you), then your game changes ridiculously. Another problem you had in your games is that you rarely let the ball drop below the net/table to pick it up with a loop (forehand or backhand). This is probably the biggest indicator that a person does not appreciate the power of the loop and you haven't realized the full potential of your rubbers and your body for creating the stroke that shaped the modern game. However, these are difficult things to incorporate without pro-coaching. But if you have a robot, watching the third video will teach you a lot (I worked with my coach on similar things). |
Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 12/26/2011 at 12:24am
There are ways to compensate for having a poor stroke. The way you compensated for your lack of a powerful swing was to utilize you legs and waist - that makes sense. What do you notice to your shots when you don't use your legs and waist? That is what icontek is doing for 90% of his shots. There is no one way to properly do a stroke but there was many "ideal" strokes for certain people. icontek is not utilizing any of those models. What makes it even worse is that he uses H3 on fh which means he really has to produce power well. Like you said you had to practice for 6 months and waiting for the ball to come off the table to be consistent and have a decent fh. Having a more effective swing would let you take the ball earlier and even short balls above the table even if the ball is net height. I do understand that icontek is in a difficult situation. He lacks quality coaches and training partners to let him be able to build a quality form for good shots. None of the opponents in his videos even come close to having solid fundamentals so I don't expect them to even block 10 balls for him. There are some simple drills that I have mentioned to icontek in order to build his basics and his training partners so they mutually improve. I can try to help him as much as I could by giving simple yet very effective drills but it ultimately comes down to him to implement them. For the two years of tt, my fh form was all over the place. I did have less bad habits but my form was constantly changing. It took me over a year to develop a consistent fh and that is with a great coach. I used up a lot of money and time by doing 200 mile round trip road trips every week in order to get 1 hour lessons to get to my current form. Even with solid fundamentals my official rating is still ~950 since I don't play much. I never had too much time to play tt in college especially now since it is my last year. ------------- Custom Walnut 7-ply DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40° BTY T64 210g |
Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 12/26/2011 at 2:38am
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Eh...none of these technical advice means jack shiz if he doesn't use it. His first order of business, as he's correctly doing, is to work on being more aggressive. If aggression is priority 1A, then looping backspins should be priority 1B. I see way too many lower level players practice looping against blocks, which for them is just a waste of time. You need to be able to make an opening loop first before you'll get a block back!!! I can understand him not having enough opportunities to train making opening loops, but I can't understand him not trying to make up for it by looping every long push coming to his FH side. All players who wish to play an attacking/looping game needs to focus at least 80% of their efforts on looping backspins until they reach at least 1500. People below that level often get one-shot killed by an opening loop, and even when they block it back it's usually a return that's more fit for a smash than a second loop.
EDIT: In short, in order to use all the things he practices in drills, he needs to 1) actually try to use them in games, and 2) create situations where he could use them in games. That means being more aggressive and developing an effective opening loop. ------------- Blade: Hurricane Long 5 (968) FL FH: D09C max BH: D09C max |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 12/27/2011 at 12:22pm
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First off, I appreciate all of the time that people have invested in analysis. Here's what I've gathered: -ready position to neutral -recover faster after stroke -movement - skip step -get in position, especially for BH and line up the shot to my body's centerline -stay lower -relax grip -focus on opening loop I can most of this with a friends robot. Perhaps it's time for a good reboot. I've been hesitant to use a robot only because I don't have anyone to correct what I am doing wrong. And practice makes permanent. I live in an area with no coaching, and closest local players (within an hour drive) are US1400-1500. I haven't found anyone to do multiball yet. But... am joining a Gym next month, hope to develop some core strength and flexibility over the next 12 months and drop a few pounds to get lighter on my feet. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 12/27/2011 at 2:07pm
| I too am working on fast coiling, releasing, and recovery of the core. I spend time in front of the mirror just going back and forth to time. I also release my breadth at supposed impact. This is something a Chinese trained player once told me to do. Despite constant flexibility training (yoga) my back still hurt this morning after 2.5 hours of practice last night. But it is worth it. Very steady and accurate. Also, as I increase speed I need hit the ball at more of an angle to drive the ball down. I expect that you will find the same. |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 12/27/2011 at 2:28pm
Me too but it is different in a game.
I use my video camera. It can work wonders because often you are more critical about yourself than others would be.
That 1400-1500 should be good. You should be able to win a few games and matches here and there. Can't you buy a bag or box of balls for use in that place you show in the videos?
Good but I agree with the comments above about being more aggressive. ------------- I TT therefore I am |