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Some games between me and Robin

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mart1243 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 6:47am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg-L_ktKP7c

Look especially at the second set where Wiggy is playing very well.
As for the comments about his rating all I can say is it shows that most US players doesn't have a clue about table tennis.


Edited by mart1243 - 07/23/2011 at 6:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 7:18am
Thanks mart1243 you beat me to it, the difference in that clip is of course its in real competition, I had to win my group, then get through 3 rounds of competition before I earned the right to play him, it was the only time I ever made it to the final stages on my national competition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 7:38am
Originally posted by DeIgado DeIgado wrote:

 you predict shots and react to them very very well, I am not sure if that is because you play with the other guy alot, or if your instincts are that good. I could be way off, this is just my opinion.
 
 I only played Honey once previously, that was about 2 yrs ago, he's from another city.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomas.gt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 8:01am
Here we go again. APW, you dont look like "pro", so no way you can have such high rating. The same old story...
I would do probably the same as robin did against you, good chances to win, but not enough. Good play
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 9:30am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Backhand chop. I've been doing it often as well, do you think its better to BH chop or fish it back when in a defensive position on backhand. 
 I only chopped/ fished in games where I was so far infront. We played 24 games, Honey won the first two, then I won the next 22.

I'm saying in a specific defensive position on backhand, do you think a backhand chop or fish is better, or equal or depends on situation or opponent? I've been doing the BH chop recently and was wondering if its a bad habit to develop. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 10:07am
Definitely depends on the opponent, but on the whole in modern TT and with reverse rubber, a fish is safer against a quality player, but a chop, especially a float/chop works well if you are comfortable. I can think of players that I have to play regularly who would crucify any of the chops I put in against Honey, so I'd be fishing back against them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slaplink_pat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 10:42am
If I was to rate Andy and Honey... Andy is clearly a 2300+(<2450) level player in USATT ratings and Honey would be at a minimum of 2050. 

I am not from the US but I have watched and analyzed a hell LOT of USATT videos from the past and I don't even think too highly of a 2000 rated player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 10:58am
Andy, how in the name of all that's holy do you produce that high quality chop with the fast inverted rubber you are using?

If I could learn that stroke, I would be as happy as a pig in the barnyard.

I absolutely love playing games where I break my opponents rhythm (many of my opponents are blockers) by switching between chop defense and attacking.

However, a year ago, when I switched from Mendo 1.8mm to Acuda S3 2.0mm the only shot that I suddenly lost (going from firm sponge to soft, from allround thickness to 2.0mm) was a consistent chop. Everything else (soft touch play, blocking, attacking and counterattacking) is at least equal or better... But the elasticity and catapult of this modern tensor makes chopping a nightmare for me.

Sad to say, but I have to break out another whole set of equipment (a slower blade with reflectoid 1.5mm) if I want to produce spinny, controlled chops.

I would love to be able to do it without switching gear. So is it just your years of experience with the stroke? What sort of adjustments are necessary when you compare thin inverted chopping to chopping with obviously offensive rubber?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 11:29am
Don't try and chop too hard, too low and play as deep as you can, but most of all, don't be scared of the spin, execute a positive stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by ZJKandMLfan ZJKandMLfan wrote:

i should also clarify what i mean when i brought up that rally count.  you guys are correct for the most part.  rallies, for the most part, don't dictate your skill.  Also Jonan, although I know you're trying to look smart, I will acknowledge your post because you bring up a good fact.
In Jonan's video, T.W and J.B do not have points where their rally count is high.  that is very true.  However, the pace at which the two juniors were playing at, was much faster and much higher level than the pace and level of the video shown here.


I wouldn't call them juniors...however the American mentality seems to be, go as hard as you can, as soon as you can, so we don't appreciate the more European mentality of touch and finesse. It's a different style and set of skills, different strategies. The players here push really hard to keep the other person from being able to make his really hard opening loop, so they both make a lot of errors. Just because someone else doesn't adhere to doing every shot as hard as they can, and build up a point without risking it all on every shot, doesn't make them worse...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dragon kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 12:05pm
Out of all your strokes, I've always admire your BH Wiggy.. I wish I can learn that.. I like how you use short swing to loop the ball even far from the table, and it is very consistent too.. Probably the secret is on the wrist. It is one of your strong point IMO.
And boy, I think this is the first time I see you kill so many opening ball on the FH, your timing is excellent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZJKandMLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by Vassily Vassily wrote:

Originally posted by ZJKandMLfan ZJKandMLfan wrote:

Not to criticize but I've seen 1800 players have some amazing rallies as well.  It';s the fact that for the most part, you're rallies are honestly good quality just not 2200 quality.  


I think you have watched too much youtube highlights.

High amateur level TT is firstly about the brain, then service, receive and touch. Winning epic 50-50 rallies actually means almost nothing, less than 5% of points are won that way. Even at top level its just someone getting caught out and stuffing up the short game (with some different definition of stuffing up) and then getting ripped. Sometimes they get a block or minicouterloop back. Or they get predicted and killed. Counterlooping like a god is extremely fun but unfortunately ultimately neligible.

Also, older people can make up for it. If an older player looks even remotely good, they are usually terrifying. Most juniors look good running around, superfast feet to opening loop, counterloop, etc. But during a game, experience is everything. When to change tactics, what tactics to use, etc etc. Sometimes the juniors get help from being coached so it can mitigate the experience issue somewhat, but generally people play without coaches.

@Wiggy that is some monstrous power from no backswing lol. 30 years worth of touch required to do that?



you have some very good points but i definitely do not agree with the way you talk about high amtateur tt.  

brain -> service -> receive -> touch?

I've never heard of such an order.  Mental toughness and using ur brain in matches is VERY important but not nearly as important as your table tennis touch.  You can be very smart,mentally tough, but if you haev not developed a good table tennis touch, it is impossible for you to execute good shots.  After watching the second video of APW playing, I definitely agree now that he not quite worth the 19-2000 rating i gave him previously.  It is because he has good table tennis touch he is able to rip his bh so effectively.  

Forgive me, In that first video I felt like you looked that way (19-2000).  However, my rating was only given to judge that video.  That video may not display all his skill thus i gave him a lower rating.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vassily Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/23/2011 at 7:06pm
Hmm, I think my writing was a bit off. I was trying to say that brain is the most important, then followed by the other 3 in some order.

Of course if someone has hopeless touch then they are screwed. But then if they are hopeless at serve receive they are screwed too. Or if they are hopeless at standing on their feet. So I am talking about most matches of TT, where usually both sides have some chance to win.

In those matches it is usually brain, i.e. the level of concentration (which goes up and down for both), mindset, nervousness control, etc which is the main decider. TT is very psychological.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2011 at 4:00pm
next part If anyone is interested;
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2011 at 5:39pm
From what I've seen of USATT rated players, Honey would be well above 2000. Biggy would most likely hoover around 2400.

Impressive reactions and not only are you able to get to the ball, you also find the time to counter. I know one thing is for sure, if I ever get to play you, I wouldn't try to beat you with speed, al though I don't think you are a hack when it comes to dealing with spin either.

Edited by Speedplay - 07/24/2011 at 5:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote popperlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2011 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by mart1243 mart1243 wrote:

 
As for the comments about his rating all I can say is it shows that most US players doesn't have a clue about table tennis.

A reason for the wild comments on his rating, is because you guys are using unfamiliar euro technique. Most high rated players here use flamboyant long strokes(japanese/korean/chinese style) I remember the first time a lad from the uk came to our club, I also severely underrated him, that is until I played him :D 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2011 at 5:45pm
Andy your game is ok but Robin needs to work on many things as he gives you many easy shots and lose easy points, though you know each others game very well. Do you also train or you just play games?

Edited by Stoi - 07/24/2011 at 5:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2011 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Originally posted by mart1243 mart1243 wrote:

 
As for the comments about his rating all I can say is it shows that most US players doesn't have a clue about table tennis.

A reason for the wild comments on his rating, is because you guys are using unfamiliar euro technique. Most high rated players here use flamboyant long strokes(japanese/korean/chinese style) I remember the first time a lad from the uk came to our club, I also severely underrated him, that is until I played him :D 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2011 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by Stoi Stoi wrote:

Andy your game is ok but Robin needs to work on many things as he gives many easy shots for you, though you know each others game very well. Do you also train or you just play games?
 
 No we don't train with each other at all, that was the first time we played for about 2 yrs, before that never. I don't know about Honey, I think he trains quite a bit, I have a coaching school, so I coach mainly thesedays, but In the past I've trained virtually full time, a long time ago though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2011 at 12:03am
Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:


...however the American mentality seems to be, go as hard as you can, as soon as you can, so we don't appreciate the more European mentality of touch and finesse....


Good observation. This mentality exists in American tennis as well. Just look at Roddick and Blake's style --- a lot of effort and hustle without much results. They're two charging bulls compared to the gazelle like Federer.

Thanks to coaches like Nick Bollettieri, the American tennis factory will continue to produce players like them.

In TT, Chen Wei Xing and Bastien Steger come to mind. There's nothing graceful about their games.




Edited by racquetsforsale - 07/25/2011 at 12:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2011 at 12:53am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

I have a coaching school, so I coach mainly thesedays, but In the past I've trained virtually full time, a long time ago though.
 
And the stamina is there. This is what matters. Ratings are subjective and therefore empty.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2011 at 1:02am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtTgk-yv5rg&feature=related
 
this is another good video- VS Greg Letts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2011 at 4:59am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

what blade rubber combo are you using? and robin?

above 2200 no question. since in videos we always look like 200 below our rating the 2400 figure seems right to me.
 
 I use Stiga allround classic blade with T05 2.1 on f/hand and T05 1.9 on b/hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote addoydude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2011 at 10:39am
Allround Classic? Wow, that's a painfully slow blade! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2011 at 11:29am
Slow but powerful. And the feel is superb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LOOPMEISTER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2011 at 11:46am
Nice videos. relentless bh. Clap

--------

I'd say its accurate you are between 2350-2499 USATT rating...... Maybe mid-2400.

You are probably just above these guys:



But probably lower than these guys because they are more athletic and have more power:







Edited by LOOPMEISTER - 07/25/2011 at 11:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2011 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by addoydude addoydude wrote:

Allround Classic? Wow, that's a painfully slow blade! 

 Yes it is, but can you hear the dwell? great for counter-looping and being pro-active with incoming topspin, rather than having to block/ play passively. I used to play with slow blade and loads of sp/glue, T05 gives me the nearest feeling to that. Also, The slow blade allows for a higher arcing loop trajectory, something that many opponents find quite hard top deal with, but is less risky for me.
Basically Fatt summed my game up perfectly, I'm not too dynamic, but if you want to trade loops I go with it, rather than try to stop it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2011 at 4:22pm
For those looking for some honest perspective, please note that Wiggy is ranked around 80 in the UK.  Competitive table tennis is generally more popular in the UK than the US.  I'm going to guess that the UK has at least as many regular competitive players as we have here.  A quick sort of male player ratings on the USATT site shows the number 80 player rated at 2411.  The 200th players is rated 2262.  The US equivalent of Wiggy might be a player more like Danny Seemiller from the standpoint of playing history, age and level.

I do think the playing style throws many people off.  What they don't catch so easily is that Wiggy seems to almost always be in a good position to make a good play on the ball.  He's well ahead of the play.  A sure sign of experience and high level.  People here often talk about strokes, power and gear.  But simply staying on balance, reading how the play is unfolding, and making sure you are in the right position to make a play are all huge components of good play.

I have some "wonderful" video clips of me making blocks that are nearly impossible from the standpoint of human reflexes.  But its hard to find players who are much better than me exhibiting such shots.  The reason is simple.  They avoid the necessity by being in better position (especially table distance).

High level table tennis is not necessarily flashy of flamboyant.  It is also difficult to judge spin via video.


Edited by wturber - 07/25/2011 at 4:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2011 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by addoydude addoydude wrote:

Allround Classic? Wow, that's a painfully slow blade! 


Just another example that you don't need especially fast gear to play at a high level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2011 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

For those looking for some honest perspective, please note that Wiggy is ranked around 80 in the UK.  Competitive table tennis is generally more popular in the UK than the US.  I'm going to guess that the UK has at least as many regular competitive players as we have here.  A quick sort of male player ratings on the USATT site shows the number 80 player rated at 2411.  The 200th players is rated 2262.  The US equivalent of Wiggy might be a player more like Danny Seemiller from the standpoint of playing history, age and level.

I do think the playing style throws many people off.  What they don't catch so easily is that Wiggy seems to almost always be in a good position to make a good play on the ball.  He's well ahead of the play.  A sure sign of experience and high level.  People here often talk about strokes, power and gear.  But simply staying on balance, reading how the play is unfolding, and making sure you are in the right position to make a play are all huge components of good play.

I have some "wonderful" video clips of me making blocks that are nearly impossible from the standpoint of human reflexes.  But its hard to find players who are much better than me exhibiting such shots.  The reason is simple.  They avoid the necessity by being in better position (especially table distance).

High level table tennis is not necessarily flashy of flamboyant.  It is also difficult to judge spin via video.

 Well thank you there wturber, for a good insight to the differences from each side of the pond. 

I think on a forum such as this it is important to share knowledge, but at times hard to put across as one would like it to be received. The reason I can be competitive to a good standard even at my age, and lets face it lack of mobility, is because of the way I play, I'm definitely not saying there is any kind of short cut ( I've put the hours in) but there are different ways of approaching the game, I know the general ethos in USA is to play a more positive Chinese style, we could look on numerous threads about Chinese vs Euro f/hands, But it really worries me when I see countless players trying to adopt a technique that they are never going to get anywhere near perfecting. 
I do regularly beat young players, faster, fitter, more mobile than me ( I also regularly lose to them), but I am always in the match, because the heavy topspin stops them steam-rollering straight through me, in effect it either slows them down to my pace, or they beat me, if they beat me, that is it, if I can ( through their FORCED errors) slow them down, I usually beat them, because I take them out of their comfort zone, and will counter loop on both wings consistently.
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