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[Video] Playing when I'm frustrated...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2011 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

if it has a lot of topspin, then you NEED to counterloop. i tried hitting (punch) and that sucker keeps on going off the table. so i think (in my opinion) that you'd need to spin on top of the ball a bit...


i'm sure counterlooping heavily spun balls is the preferred method at some levels of play. i'm just not certain if that level is 2200 or if it's higher than that.

saying that you can't punch something so you must have to counterloop it is like saying that you are having trouble killing flies with chopsticks, so you NEED to catch it with a needle and thread instead.

a basic block or counter is a heckuva lot easier (and can be performed more consistently) than a counterloop. all you have to worry about is placement and you can move your opponent around and force them to make a weaker shot that you can then attack. it's like using a flyswatter.

while i'm not in any position to give any sort of feedback on technique, the tactical decisions that some players make often leave me scratching my head. choosing a high risk/low percentage shot might feed the ego every so often, but it doesn't win games. and believe me that I've lost enough games going for the wrong stroke from the wrong position to back that one up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpgh2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2011 at 11:17pm
very true tek. it was my mistake since i was not specific in my post. i was referring to returning the topspin serves that ohh's getting from his 2000 friend to the bh side. the short topspin serves are hard to flick since you need to be somewhat aggressive with it. if not, it gets killed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carbon TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2011 at 11:18pm
I only really watched the first video, it seems you lack "sharpness", I don't mean you aren't being aggresive.  In all actuality you often seemed over commit far too early on some serve returns and you end up making a weak return.  By sharpness I mean intensity, it doesn't look like you are trying very hard, your strokes seem long and slow.  There is nothing wrong with being smooth, but as an attacker your goal is to make the ball listen to you, and to get it to listen well it needs a lot of spin, and to get a lot of spin it needs racket speed.
 
So far your serves seem to be the strongest part of your game, but try to make the contact more violent.  You want to be able to create maximum spin, even if at a particular instance your goal is none.  Try to make some serves with spin that is 10/10 in your mind.  If you only ever practice serves at 7/10 spin, or even less, that is the maximum you will ever be able to get in a match consistently.  If you practice going for 10/10 with a more risky, sharp contact, you can always back it down to 7/10 in a match to gain some reliability.
 
As far as rating is concerned (and it doesn't really matter other than for the ego, and forum chest puffing), I would estimate you around 1300-1500.  I put a larger range of rating because players around that level tend to fluctuate greatly game to game, even down to individual points or shots.
 
 
p.s. - It seems you are often brushing your hair out of your eyes, I won't really go anywhere with this comment other than that as your level grows, your movement will become faster and more abrupt as the rally transitions become more rapid and instantaneous and it could create problems.


Edited by Carbon TT - 04/19/2011 at 11:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/19/2011 at 11:21pm
I watched the second vid because you said that was the better one of the two... My constructive criticism would be to work on your service game. For realz.

In that second video, the placement and the length of your serves is almost exactly the same every time. Plus in your service motion, you serve from belly height and bring your paddle up to head height then recover back down. It's extra time to recover that way and leaves you exposed for aggressive return of service, especially with the lack of variation in placement and length.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2011 at 12:13am
Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

very true tek. it was my mistake since i was not specific in my post. i was referring to returning the topspin serves that ohh's getting from his 2000 friend to the bh side. the short topspin serves are hard to flick since you need to be somewhat aggressive with it. if not, it gets killed. 

Yup, I need to be aggressive with it.  I think at least 9/10 that I've bumped the ball over in the past, it was killed.  If my chances of making the ball in and getting the upper hand on the point is 1/10, I say that is a hell lot better than hoping he will miss his shot.  Plus, I'm not improving if I'm just bumping the ball and hoping he misses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpgh2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2011 at 12:54am
yea it just takes practice. if you can drill with him regularly then it'll be a lot of help to you. get him to serve short topspin to bh or fh and then you can have fun with it and see if u can return it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2011 at 1:46am
Originally posted by ohhgourami ohhgourami wrote:

Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

very true tek. it was my mistake since i was not specific in my post. i was referring to returning the topspin serves that ohh's getting from his 2000 friend to the bh side. the short topspin serves are hard to flick since you need to be somewhat aggressive with it. if not, it gets killed. 

Yup, I need to be aggressive with it.  I think at least 9/10 that I've bumped the ball over in the past, it was killed.  If my chances of making the ball in and getting the upper hand on the point is 1/10, I say that is a hell lot better than hoping he will miss his shot.  Plus, I'm not improving if I'm just bumping the ball and hoping he misses.


Believe me, I know the fear of an opponents offense. I used to think that it was because they were higher level players that they had such monsterous shots. Then I started seeing lower level players that had equally powerful shots. However in matches against the lower level players the big kill shots simply disappeared. What was different?

It took me about three 3 (and one series of matches with a US1600 penholder) to figure out that putting the ball into the middle third of the table is suicide against anyone with decent movement.

And going for broke with a 1/10 shot is a sure fire way to lose 9 points.

Instead of giving in to the fear and lashing out, you can help him miss or create a weak ball..

Remember:

-The other person can only respond to a ball that you have put in play.
-If he is killing 9 out of 10 of your bumps, you might consider working on placement of the shot.
-Even US2000 players have weak spots where they can't hit their strongest shots.
-If they didn't have those weak spots, they would be much higher than 2000.
-And finally, if you can identify those spots, and then intentionally hit them with the ball, you can cause your opponent to create weak openings that can be exploited.

Once I figured this out and started actively working on placement and control, it was liberating to finally realize that I could influence, reduce and even often prevent the effectiveness of my opponents attacks.

We can continue to agree to disagree, and that's fine.
There are different paths to winning.

Originally posted by tpgh2k tpgh2k wrote:

yea it just takes practice. if you can drill with him regularly then it'll be a lot of help to you. get him to serve short topspin to bh or fh and then you can have fun with it and see if u can return it.


This is good advice. Have him do the same serve, and work out at least 3 variations against the serve that you can do consistently (drop, push wide, flip, etc). If your opponent can't anticipate your choices, it's almost as good as having a hidden serve :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2011 at 2:22am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:



Believe me, I know the fear of an opponents offense. I used to think that it was because they were higher level players that they had such monsterous shots. Then I started seeing lower level players that had equally powerful shots. However in matches against the lower level players the big kill shots simply disappeared. What was different?

It took me about three 3 (and one series of matches with a US1600 penholder) to figure out that putting the ball into the middle third of the table is suicide against anyone with decent movement.

And going for broke with a 1/10 shot is a sure fire way to lose 9 points.

Instead of giving in to the fear and lashing out, you can help him miss or create a weak ball..

Remember:

-The other person can only respond to a ball that you have put in play.
-If he is killing 9 out of 10 of your bumps, you might consider working on placement of the shot.
-Even US2000 players have weak spots where they can't hit their strongest shots.
-If they didn't have those weak spots, they would be much higher than 2000.
-And finally, if you can identify those spots, and then intentionally hit them with the ball, you can cause your opponent to create weak openings that can be exploited.

Once I figured this out and started actively working on placement and control, it was liberating to finally realize that I could influence, reduce and even often prevent the effectiveness of my opponents attacks.

We can continue to agree to disagree, and that's fine.
There are different paths to winning.

Playing a control game against a player at a much higher level than you is a sure way to lose.  Working on placement and control is one thing and much easier said than done especially when your opponent is able to control YOUR game.  I don't think you realize the difference between a 1600 and a 2000.  In my case, I'm someone who isn't even a 1600 yet...

A controlled bump can only be a temporary solution.  I will not make me improve as a player and it is not a good way to learn how to beat 2000s.  Talking with my coach earlier, we have come up with a good solution on returning this serve.  One that will make me a more complete player without taking quick shortcuts.

Yes, there are two paths to winning, but there is one path that is cut short.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qynthnghm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2011 at 2:45am
Was this a serious match? It couldn't have been because of the great difference in skill. More of a friendly match, no? Therefore, losing the match shouldn't really be your concern, nor is winning the match. If you're not even at 1600 yet, then working on your consistency and control in the match is the greatest thing you can learn from it. Why are you concerned with beating 2000+ opponents at this point in your development? I'd be more concerned with keeping the ball on the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruit loop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2011 at 4:05am
Originally posted by ohhgourami ohhgourami wrote:

Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:



Believe me, I know the fear of an opponents offense. I used to think that it was because they were higher level players that they had such monsterous shots. Then I started seeing lower level players that had equally powerful shots. However in matches against the lower level players the big kill shots simply disappeared. What was different?

It took me about three 3 (and one series of matches with a US1600 penholder) to figure out that putting the ball into the middle third of the table is suicide against anyone with decent movement.

And going for broke with a 1/10 shot is a sure fire way to lose 9 points.

Instead of giving in to the fear and lashing out, you can help him miss or create a weak ball..

Remember:

-The other person can only respond to a ball that you have put in play.
-If he is killing 9 out of 10 of your bumps, you might consider working on placement of the shot.
-Even US2000 players have weak spots where they can't hit their strongest shots.
-If they didn't have those weak spots, they would be much higher than 2000.
-And finally, if you can identify those spots, and then intentionally hit them with the ball, you can cause your opponent to create weak openings that can be exploited.

Once I figured this out and started actively working on placement and control, it was liberating to finally realize that I could influence, reduce and even often prevent the effectiveness of my opponents attacks.

We can continue to agree to disagree, and that's fine.
There are different paths to winning.

Playing a control game against a player at a much higher level than you is a sure way to lose.  Working on placement and control is one thing and much easier said than done especially when your opponent is able to control YOUR game.  I don't think you realize the difference between a 1600 and a 2000.  In my case, I'm someone who isn't even a 1600 yet...

A controlled bump can only be a temporary solution.  I will not make me improve as a player and it is not a good way to learn how to beat 2000s.  Talking with my coach earlier, we have come up with a good solution on returning this serve.  One that will make me a more complete player without taking quick shortcuts.

Yes, there are two paths to winning, but there is one path that is cut short.


A controlled bump with good placement is just as effective since you're setting up for the next shot. With good placement you can change your opponents kill loop into a fast loop to where you're ready to counter attack it. It's about placing it so you can defend the next shot until you have the ability to really flick hard. Look at ma long, he's a great exponent of this.
I personally hate playing with people with that sort of attitude, it just wastes both our time picking up the ball. You should be practicing it on the practice table, not in a game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vassily Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2011 at 4:25am
You look like you are playing very loosely. Sort of just doing the standard motions because thats what you are trained to do. The ninja service return to his far FH is much better, you need to do more of these, i.e. have better decision making.

If there is a chance you have to go for it, but if theres no opening you cant just assume you are Ma Long and try for it and commit suicide. You might be thinking that you will practice being hyper-aggressive, then in time your technique will catch up, and you will be superman. But it doesnt really work like that. No matter how good you are, there will always be shots you can and cant do, and you need to be able to know the difference. In other words you will need to learn to dynamically "manage risk", i.e. know how good you are playing ON THAT DAY, and then take enough "risks" to play to up to that level and go no further.

Always give your opponent the chance to make their own mistakes. Dont think that the only way to win is if you can hit 11x4 straight 3rd/4th ball winners.

This is not to say that you should take up some super passive LP hope-they-miss game, that doesnt work at a higher level (and is very boring), but hyper-aggression is not the best (and is also a very boring playstyle, you might as well take up competitive coin flipping).




Edited by Vassily - 04/20/2011 at 4:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carbon TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2011 at 11:55am
Originally posted by Fruit loop Fruit loop wrote:

A controlled bump with good placement is just as effective since you're setting up for the next shot. With good placement you can change your opponents kill loop into a fast loop to where you're ready to counter attack it. It's about placing it so you can defend the next shot until you have the ability to really flick hard. Look at ma long, he's a great exponent of this.
I personally hate playing with people with that sort of attitude, it just wastes both our time picking up the ball. You should be practicing it on the practice table, not in a game.
 
Michael Maze is also very good at this, during his matches he will drop shot 2-3 times in a row in a point, either trying to get them to drop it too high, or loop it at less than full power.  He does have extremely good touch though which is very important in this situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carbon TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2011 at 12:01pm
Some people on here seem to believe his game is not relevant anymore but I will make this example anyways.  Go watch some matches of Waldner frow the last few years against much more "modern" players.  Pay attention to how competitive he is even though he has pretty bad footwork these days.  More importantly in this discussion, look at how many times he tries an aggresive flip, or the lack of how many times he does in reality.  You will almost always see him drop shot, or see him do one of his favorite returns, the deep push right to the body.  It is incredible how many times the players will run around to their forehand and not really get in a quality loop and Waldner just loops or blocks it past them down his backhand line.
 
Remember, just because you are not playing an aggresive flip or over the table loop does not mean you are forced into giving the opponent all of the initiative in the point.


Edited by Carbon TT - 04/20/2011 at 12:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penhold_Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2011 at 1:16pm
Player in Black, you're ready stance, is  bad, you're racket should be more even with the table, not hanging at the floor. In case of a fast serve you would be screwed.
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