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What else is needed to beat the Chinese?

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takaaki View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote takaaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2009 at 5:19pm
the chinese players are not robots!! 

but even if they were, nobody in europe can produce a "european robot" that's good enough to beat the chinese ones.  the chinese players are the best cuz they are produced by the best system in the world.

there is no system in europe at this time good enough to produce champions, so if a champion does come up from there, it's a total miracle!!

so, the best that you can do is just to pray for a miracle.  that's the only way it's gonna happen...

the chinese are just simply better funded and better trained than any other team in the world. 

that said, i think the japanese are moving up and they may rival the chinese very soon, IF they make the right moves training-wise. mizutani, kishikawa and even little niwa definitely have some potential.

but as far as europe is concerned, forget about it!!  waldner and persson were the last great players of europe and, with his back issues, timo boll will never be 100% again, so europe is pretty much finished. 

ovtcharov, i think, is playing the best he will ever play and vladi looks as though the chinese have pretty much beaten out all the fight outta him that he used to have.

boll, ovtcharov and vladi will stay in the top-20 for a while, but as for the rest of those top-20 european players, i predict they will all drop out of the top-20 sometime in the next 2 years and there will be nobody from europe to replace them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote takaaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2009 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by ozjan ozjan wrote:

Watch and study video of Waldner, Gatien, and Schlager in their primes.  Something all the above players had in common was when they attacked, it was either very uncomfortable, unpredictable, powerful, or a combo of them all for the opponent.


that's not gonna work either.  the game has changed.

players now are much, much better than they have ever been before.

that's the problem--you guys are looking at the wrong players.

you are looking at the great players of yesteryear.  to learn how to play best at today's game you should be looking at the best players of today, which, of course, are the chinese. 

like the saying goes: if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote le xex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2009 at 6:23pm
make the chinese stop using illegal tuning oil, then at least we can begin to have a better analysis 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2009 at 8:37pm
Alot of the european players just take whatever shot is given to them. If a ball is directed to the backhand, they do backhand. Rarely will they try to get to a forehand like the chinese do. Schlager is an example of this, he uses his backhand loop to rally and stays on it, but it's not powerful or effective against a forehand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote isharestuff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2009 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by wealthweb wealthweb wrote:

To beat the Chinese is not easy at all. A guy from China told me that during training he was asked by his coach to practice the same serve several hundred times within the same period of time before he is permitted to do new tricks. Are we ready for that kind of drill and discipline? The Chinese coaches are not satisfied in just breeding good players; they want to create terminators and bull-dozers which will eliminate anything that stands on their way. European style is straight forward and forceful. Chinese style is LING HOW (meaning FLEXIBLE TRICKY). European players focuses on strength. Chinese players focuses on Ying Yang Balance.


Well said. I heard it's thousands strokes per day. Like any other sports, to achieve something called "muscle memory" (?). Meaning you don't even have to think how to, but your muscle will do it for you.

As for the style, totally agree with you. European style is almost like boxing, forceful, fast and efficient. While Chinese is like, Shaolin kungfu? LOL

Seriously am no joking, look at Wang Hao RPB, it's almost like what Chinese always read in their kungfu novel, an assasaint executes his deadly technique, the poison needle! And Ma Lin is like cruel swordman, fast and sharp! Liu Guoliang is like the weird dude who uses a weapon that people have no glue fighting with. Kong! He surely playing Taichi! LOL

Seriously, if Timo could beat Chinese, the rest of them can, too. Modern game now requires players to be more efficient, faster, powerful, of course mentality improvement too. So far China shows us they can do better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote takaaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2009 at 10:25am
Originally posted by le xex le xex wrote:

make the chinese stop using illegal tuning oil, then at least we can begin to have a better analysis 


hahahahaha!!

do you honestly believe the chinese are winning cuz of that???

if that's the case, then the europeans are really stupid, cuz all they gotta do is go and buy a coupla bottles of haifu oil @ some tt store.  it's VOC-free so the enez can't detect it.  y'know, i think alexli sells it at the mytt store, so maybe they should go to him...  maybe somebody here should send boll, or ovcharov, or maze, or schlager, or whoever an e-mail letting them know that the mytt store has the "secret" ingredient that's gonna finally put them over the edge after all these years!!  cuz without it, they have absolutely no chance of winning!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xiehy0325 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2009 at 11:38pm

more and more thing need to do !

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrilix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 2:16am
Originally posted by xiehy0325 xiehy0325 wrote:

more and more thing need to do !



Say what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dimist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 6:58am
Originally posted by 729 FX 729 FX wrote:

 
Let's analyse the European style of play. In my opinion, Europe is paying the price for two mistakes:
1) laziness at work

2) the backhand stroke play

 


I agree 100%, i think backhand is the basic reason and the number of players is the second reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 8:38am
It's the Forehand, Silly!

The Chinese system has produced a forehand that can end points through consistent power.

The European forehand does not compare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dragon kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 9:00am
What we need is a new technology blade. We must make a new blade with hollow handle, then we put a state of the art weapon technology in it to shoot out a small dart with drugs just enough to make a human being lost a part of their consciousness.
We must arm all non Chinese player with this new technology blade and have them shoot the dart to their Chinese opponent to drug them during the match so they will be easily defeated.. Approve

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 9:47am
Originally posted by dimist dimist wrote:

Originally posted by 729 FX 729 FX wrote:

 
Let's analyse the European style of play. In my opinion, Europe is paying the price for two mistakes:
1) laziness at work

2) the backhand stroke play

 


I agree 100%, i think backhand is the basic reason and the number of players is the second reason.
Laziness came from the use of bacjhand


Disagree 100%.

Why does everyone think that shakehand backhand is a disadvantage? Its not a disadvantage. If you read many books on table tennis and listen to interviews or read commentaries from most world class European players - they emphasize that their biggest wins were caused by an improved backhand - something they had to work really hard to achieve.

Waldner is a prime example. He drove the backhand into play and the whole swedish team picked up on it. Maze is talking about his backhand being one of the major reasons for him to be able to defeat other players in his interview from 2009 European championship.

Its not the backhand, its the type of the backhand! I don't think anyone is developing new way of using their backhand - if you look at how people are using it at the pro circuit - its merely a way to keep the ball on the table and very few use it as an offensive weapon.

I do agree that european players base their game on spin more than chinese players and don't have sufficient power in their loop drives, but that is a mere tradition. If you want to see tradition being altered in front of you, take a look at Patrick Baum's games. He's got a power loop to wish for, he also is a maniac with his backhand. He'll come up with more force once he gets a bit more experience.

Speaking of lazyness, there is no such thing! Europe does not have such a fine tuned machine to train table tennis superstars as China does - and that cannot be called "laziness".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 10:07am
Well, lets see.  What advantages does china enjoy?
 
It is one of if not the most popular sport.  In the west it is way down the list.  This is changing not in the west but in China.  They want to play tennis, basketball, soccer, etc.  Eventually the resources and interest for TT will diminish I think.
 
They have a population of 1.5 billion or whatever it is to draw on. When you have a quarter of the earth's population, you have a quarter of their athletes.
 
They seem to be willing to route their kids and specialize them earlier in life.  As I understand it, they are willing to pull kids into camps at like age 6 and this becomes their job.  Discipline is probably absolute. This is not something we seem to want to do in the west.  Not saying it's good or bad.  But I wonder what becomes of the majority of players who DON'T make it to the top of the system.  Have they been taught to read and write adequately?  Or do they get like a military retirement like stipend and then they are forced to work yucky jobs if they can't make it as a TT coach or whatever?  This is not just TT.  Look at the world's reaction to the female olympic gymnasts and their ages.
 
I don't claim to be an expert in China.  Don't speak it.  Never been there.  If my impressions are incorrect, feel free to tell me.  This is just my musings as I percieve the situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 10:24am
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Well, lets see.  What advantages does china enjoy?
 
It is one of if not the most popular sport.  In the west it is way down the list.  This is changing not in the west but in China.  They want to play tennis, basketball, soccer, etc.  Eventually the resources and interest for TT will diminish I think.
 
They have a population of 1.5 billion or whatever it is to draw on. When you have a quarter of the earth's population, you have a quarter of their athletes.
 
They seem to be willing to route their kids and specialize them earlier in life.  As I understand it, they are willing to pull kids into camps at like age 6 and this becomes their job.  Discipline is probably absolute. This is not something we seem to want to do in the west.  Not saying it's good or bad.  But I wonder what becomes of the majority of players who DON'T make it to the top of the system.  Have they been taught to read and write adequately?  Or do they get like a military retirement like stipend and then they are forced to work yucky jobs if they can't make it as a TT coach or whatever?  This is not just TT.  Look at the world's reaction to the female olympic gymnasts and their ages.
 
I don't claim to be an expert in China.  Don't speak it.  Never been there.  If my impressions are incorrect, feel free to tell me.  This is just my musings as I percieve the situation.


Perfect post cole_ely!

I was born in Ukraine and I am very well exposed to socialist structure. My mother was a gymnast - acrobat and trampoline jumper and I have been going to "athlete camps" for children - organized to train kids for their specialties.

Such camps consisted of about 500 kids and had tons of trainers and coaches. The duration 2 months. Throughout 2 months, it was nothing but work 6 hours a day on things and then have fun on weekends and evenings. It was filled with excruciating workouts....

Now this is Ukraine or USSR as it was back then. The trend was to produce athletes and bring out talent. Those who did well - became great. Those who got hurt or too old in the process - became trainers full time on government pay. Many bailed over the years to start their private lives, but this process was ongoing.

Lots have changed since then, but one thing remains - China still "governs" its athlete system. They scout, recruit and build athletic machines - this is again proven by China's restriction to date!!!! They might as well neuter for gold medals - ridiculous.

So the point is that as long as China remains focused on dominance in TT arena, they will always be a step ahead. Why???? Because as european players get old and still play, China substitutes established players by new 18-20 year old stars that were in "development" hidden from everyone's eyes like a secret weapon.

Europe simply cannot churn out champions as quickly.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 10:43am
Is Leshxa your real name, and if so how do you pronounce it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 11:23am
My name is Alex. Short for Alexei, which in russian is sometimes pronounced as "Lesha", xa instead of a on the end is for uniqueness :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Well, lets see.  What advantages does china enjoy?
 
It is one of if not the most popular sport.  In the west it is way down the list.  This is changing not in the west but in China.  They want to play tennis, basketball, soccer, etc.  Eventually the resources and interest for TT will diminish I think.
 
They have a population of 1.5 billion or whatever it is to draw on. When you have a quarter of the earth's population, you have a quarter of their athletes.
 
They seem to be willing to route their kids and specialize them earlier in life.  As I understand it, they are willing to pull kids into camps at like age 6 and this becomes their job.  Discipline is probably absolute. This is not something we seem to want to do in the west.  Not saying it's good or bad.  But I wonder what becomes of the majority of players who DON'T make it to the top of the system.  Have they been taught to read and write adequately?  Or do they get like a military retirement like stipend and then they are forced to work yucky jobs if they can't make it as a TT coach or whatever?  This is not just TT.  Look at the world's reaction to the female olympic gymnasts and their ages.
 
I don't claim to be an expert in China.  Don't speak it.  Never been there.  If my impressions are incorrect, feel free to tell me.  This is just my musings as I percieve the situation.


Perfect post cole_ely!

I was born in Ukraine and I am very well exposed to socialist structure. My mother was a gymnast - acrobat and trampoline jumper and I have been going to "athlete camps" for children - organized to train kids for their specialties.

Such camps consisted of about 500 kids and had tons of trainers and coaches. The duration 2 months. Throughout 2 months, it was nothing but work 6 hours a day on things and then have fun on weekends and evenings. It was filled with excruciating workouts....

Now this is Ukraine or USSR as it was back then. The trend was to produce athletes and bring out talent. Those who did well - became great. Those who got hurt or too old in the process - became trainers full time on government pay. Many bailed over the years to start their private lives, but this process was ongoing.

Lots have changed since then, but one thing remains - China still "governs" its athlete system. They scout, recruit and build athletic machines - this is again proven by China's restriction to date!!!! They might as well neuter for gold medals - ridiculous.

So the point is that as long as China remains focused on dominance in TT arena, they will always be a step ahead. Why???? Because as european players get old and still play, China substitutes established players by new 18-20 year old stars that were in "development" hidden from everyone's eyes like a secret weapon.

Europe simply cannot churn out champions as quickly.....

One word LEFTIES Wink

I believe discipline and training is not the only reason. I think Chinese found the better way to play tt, and the rest of the world still played tt like playing tennis. Go back to the old USSR, did they win everything?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 1:21pm
When it was USSR, they got a lot more results in sports. Now, every republic on its own and funding is a big issue. No more government programs. Well, they are there, but much more limited in size.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote melarimsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 1:36pm
Yeah, in OLD socialism or some communism countries they used to put a lot in sport. Now, when everybody want democracy and capitalism, that is gone ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ppmax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 3:04pm
Strategically position a few hot girls with generous cleavage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dabookerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 3:39pm
That might also help the attendance and viewership of TT matches, too!  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ocvillager Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 3:42pm

shame on chinese government. A beautiful country with beautiful culture are over taken by a dictate government who always to play cheap even in international trades. They cheated in sport (olympic gymnast by reducing their age) ...cheap shot.

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Mass destruction weapons?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkillashark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 6:35pm
Korean hanbang forehand

Worked in Athens 2004 for Ryu =]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thylacine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 6:40pm
Yeah jkillashark gave the best answer. The only way to beat the chinese is if you are Korean and a penholder. Chinese have much to learn from the Koreans about the hanbang ping pong. More Korean hanbangers = less medals for the Chinese. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

When it was USSR, they got a lot more results in sports. Now, every republic on its own and funding is a big issue. No more government programs. Well, they are there, but much more limited in size.




we need to go back to Ivan Drago in Rocky IV!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 729 FX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2009 at 11:49pm

I disagree with jkillashark comment on the Korean. RSM winning is just a "flash in the pan" and I would rate the Japanese in the next 3-5 years as a powerhouse that can rivalled the Chinese.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2009 at 2:17am
Originally posted by 729 FX 729 FX wrote:

I disagree with jkillashark comment on the Korean. RSM winning is just a "flash in the pan" and I would rate the Japanese in the next 3-5 years as a powerhouse that can rivalled the Chinese.

 
i dont think the japanese will be a major force, history shows that they shine until they are 18 like fukuhara,sakamoto a briefs moments of glory a japanese friend told me that they dont care about table tennis compared to other sports.
 
like kenta , tasaki almost beat wang tao in 1995 , beat the saive bros in 1993 and then fade away the same goes for women, umemura has done nothin,konishi same thing............getting chinese players representing japan has done a lot of damage in japan...one thing is having a flash of greatness but keeping at the top is diffrent
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fortran2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2009 at 3:25am
Maybe Germany and Japan can challange China in next few years.
Wang Liqin and Ma lin will leave Chinese national team soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2009 at 4:30am
Originally posted by fortran2003 fortran2003 wrote:

Maybe Germany and Japan can challange China in next few years.
Wang Liqin and Ma lin will leave Chinese national team soon.
 
 
 
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