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The great China vs Euro loop myth |
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Heimdallalso
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2008 Status: Offline Points: 1861 |
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While I like Timo & his game a great deal it is an aberration; that being his #1 position at the moment.
I also agree with those who say too much is made of the difference in the rubbers/equipments.
I also happen to think the straight arm loop, may at times, translate more efficiently in regards to speed & spin Vs the more "Euro" model.
It is hard to argue with success.
Just one mans view!
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NEXY Lissom st 85g
fh/ Andro Impuls Speed max bh/ Palio Flying Dragon 1.8 |
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Heimdallalso
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2008 Status: Offline Points: 1861 |
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I respectfully disagree with this too.
I would phrase it differently. We have all seen players who translate the power (available through more or less "correct" technique, or not) that may be available to them poorly; maybe extremely poorly as they've not even a beginners understanding.
TT is a sport where we have to learn how to put our power into the ball efficiently as well as the other factors you've also noted.
Time is short...
gotta run.
Good Hitting.
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NEXY Lissom st 85g
fh/ Andro Impuls Speed max bh/ Palio Flying Dragon 1.8 |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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If you mean that power must be controlled then I agree. The point I was making is that we have excess capacity in power but not enough prescision, consistency and mobility. |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Thank you for reminding me about the past. Right when I am about to forget, I am actually still waiting for a response to the "reference" I have provided that you insisted so much on. And I expect it, if you care enough to ever make one, to be nothing short of possessing with it a decent degree of Emotional Quotient, admittedly because you have a way with neurological excitation and BP escalation that rival the momentarily (un)professional player Wang Yuegu. Excuse me for going off-topic, APW46. |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Confessedly I am a member of the greedy bunch when it comes to striving for a win while pretending to look pretty. |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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Just saw a slow motion video of Boll's forehand and realized that there
isn't an elbow snap as much as there is a forward and upward pivot of
the forearm about the axis of the upper arm which rotates in the
shoulder socket. The motion can be likened to waving bye-bye to the
floor with the entire forearm like a windshield wiper, pivoting in a
plane parallel to the floor, pivoting about the upper arm, with the
elbow tucked in at the side. Tilt the plane so the forearm is pivoting
from low to high and that's pretty much Boll's arm motion. The trick is
to not just close the elbow. If done right, there should be a bit of
tension in the rear delts in the backswing. Boll's wrist lags as his
elbow pivots forward and up, and catches up at contact with a snap. I
can't tell how much the angle changes between his forearm and upper arm
before and after contact. Perhaps he also incorporates some degree of
elbow snap. Thoughts anyone?
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Leshxa
Gold Member Joined: 01/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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There are way to many variables at play. I don't know if anyone ever teaches an elbow snap, but I think if you have to focus and work on this particular part of the stroke, then its very unlikely that the stroke is executed correctly. I guess in the game is different because in lack of time, possible elbow snap can compensate for deficiency in footwork or lack of time to use footwork. |
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Back to table tennis...
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Leshxa
Gold Member Joined: 01/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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I would definitely be interested in this "study". I think too many people fantasize that there is something on the market that would immediately bump the game up for lots of people. Reminds me a scene in "Tip Cup" when someone has like 100 different golf gadgets attached to them to learn the proper technique, lol. |
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Back to table tennis...
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pipigrande
Super Member Joined: 04/18/2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 270 |
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Question...
Is there a such thing as proper technique? It seems that you could have a Chinese stroke, European Stroke, something in the middle, something in the far end, etc. What defines a proper technique? |
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Acoustic
BH: T64 FH: BW2 |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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Thaidog
Gold Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1661 |
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In other sports, golf particularly, every *individual* has his own style... no two players are exactly the same... BUT there are are similarities... stance width, ball, position, "hitter" or "swinger"... Back in the 70's there was the Jack Nicklaus swing type that gained a lot of popularity and many pros including Greg Norman became very successful with it. It is a good technique... but it was just *that* - a technique that pros taught because it had proven to be successful... a passing trend. Today there is "stack and tilt", the Leadbetter swing theory and many other competing schools of thought. Even still there are completely unorthodox players like Jim Furyk. After seeing all of this for me it comes down to utter nonsense to call one style superior to another. Probably even more crazy to try to adhere yourself to one type of style... find something that works for YOU and stick to it. Don't be afraid to try new styles and approaches and get worse before you get better to find that style though. TT is a sport filled with different styles and that is what makes it great... I hate nothing more than the people I see who come up to others acting like they know that person's game and what they can do better than they do.... next they are recruiting this person in to their cult of TT where they are the god and it's because their technique is so perfect and awesome... and of course they can teach it to them because of their superior intelligence. Never mind being a pro player and a teaching pro are two different things and this type or person is neither!
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Timo ALC FL
Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1024 |
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A complete player must be able to do both.
More Euro when close to the table for spin and control in opening loops (watch gatien, maze, boll). More Chinese style when getting away from the table (more time for a bigger back swing) --> there the legs play a much bigger role and the arm is fully extended and goes "free" as soon as the player has "thrown his shoulder away" --> http://www.alphatabletennis.com/clips/06-09.html see ma long in the background (gosh!!! that little clip really influenced me). Of course, as pipigrande underlines it, we have everything in between! edit: the clip is now at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=locofduK2dQ Edited by stiltt - 03/25/2023 at 5:20pm |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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Thaidog
Gold Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1661 |
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Timo ALC FL
Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
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mon22
Gold Member Joined: 03/05/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1174 |
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starting at 2:58 rally:
Ma Long was forced to continue using tenergy since Mattenet started attacking and he was caught off guard (he twindles btw when smashing) Im referring to the discussion about different rubbers = different strokes, which btw i agree 100% the thread had gotten too big for me to mention my find of this video. Hope this sheds light lol
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I am a total Newb. Come at me!
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dabookerman
Silver Member Joined: 04/10/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 697 |
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LOL - many a farting sparrow has ruined a good round of mine.... I actually like the golf analogies but in an entirely different way. Because of the distances involved, golf entails that the player who most accurately applies combined force WITH physics hits the ball the farthest. It is easy to prove this yet many don't get it. The problem with TT as noted is that you have to apply the stroke within the time and space constraints of each point. I agree that many styles work both in golf and TT, but the underlying physical principles remain the same. Power in both is primarily generated by torsional rotation of the body (or weight shift) applied to the arc of the swing. IMHO, the same thing applies to the loop and explains why physically smaller Chinese loopers can blast through the more imposing European loopers as they are generating a longer, more efficient arc of acceleration through their arm extension and weight shift. This application of physics also explains the increased back struggles of Boll and Maze. Basically, a Chinese looper in effect slings his arm through the swing using larger core muscles while the Euros place more starting and stopping in the actual arm itself which places stress on the back. Look at any sport involving a swinging motion - TT, golf, tennis, baseball, even jai alai or throwing a football - and the power comes from the release of power built through torsional rotation/acceleration and not from the arm or side itself. One of the more puzzling things to most though, is that that players with the most efficient motions both generate more power and have fewer core muscle injuries. |
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Photino FL
Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
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dabookerman
Silver Member Joined: 04/10/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 697 |
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I am 6'00' tall and not only can I hit a golf ball more than 300+ yards,
I routinely FLY it more than 300+ yards. I have very long arms which
help my swing arc and great rotational flexibility (even though I cannot
bend over and touch my toes!). The main drawback with TT is that there
is not enough time to execute a full rotational swing.
This explains why WLQ literally "owned a decade" with his FH. He was just big enough to generate the largest arc with the most power yet not too big for that swing to be too long for the speed of the game. Edited by dabookerman - 01/07/2011 at 6:28pm |
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Photino FL
Yasaka Rising Dragon Short Pips |
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Thaidog
Gold Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1661 |
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I was pretty long off the tee back in the day I played but I was of average build so I compensated by taking the club back way past parallel. As I got older and increasingly more fragile I had to make my swing more efficient to get the same distance. This brought up the question of what is the most perfect technique to produce the most power... sadly it seems to turn out still an individual thing due to a big factor a reasons. For instance as a teenager you are growing at a high rate of speed and are flexible, easily recover from injury and can gain muscle much more quickly. This leads to being able to be more aggressive, and have imperfect technique but it does not matter because you can make up for it because you have plenty of time to learn and still are growing taller so your swing has to change anyway. But what if you are old / injured? You'll have to change your swing! You might have spent a lot of time learning one technique but now you can't use it anymore because your body can do that! So now you have a different style to learn to get back to the same level. Same thing in TT. That's why you don't see many people in wheel chairs who are choppers or lobbers it's just not possible.
In TT the application of power has even more constraints.. for example the more incoming topspin the ball has the more of a glancing blow you must make to re-loop the ball. In that case the application of speed and power to the ball has be be every precise. In golf the tee box is pretty much perfect... still the golf swing is more complex and has still other factors that get involved like wind / weather... etc.
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Timo ALC FL
Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
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TTslurp
Super Member Joined: 01/19/2011 Status: Offline Points: 113 |
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Just testing now... |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1024 |
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when I have doubts about my game I come back here to resource myself and I go out of it all pumped up again.
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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shakepender
Super Member Joined: 11/16/2009 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 204 |
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How does one train to conciously or automatically do the European loop when close to the table and the Chinese one when further away?
I find myself doing a quick and shortened Chinese loop when close to the table and missing completely...
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Viscaria : Omg IV Pro / Omg IV Euro
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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TTslurp
Super Member Joined: 01/19/2011 Status: Offline Points: 113 |
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Testing my new Super Duper Euro Chinese choploop... No, sorry, was just testing how my reply would look if i clicked "Quote". I am new to this forum.
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TTslurp
Super Member Joined: 01/19/2011 Status: Offline Points: 113 |
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Testing my new Super Duper Euro Chinese choploop... No, sorry, was just testing how my reply would look if i clicked "Quote". I am new to this forum. Could you please inform me how to remove a reply of mine? |
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dragon kid
Premier Member Joined: 07/28/2007 Status: Offline Points: 2947 |
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ttslurp...
You can't remove a reply.. you only allowed to edit it.. |
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'Nobody is Perfect. I am Nobody' |
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TTslurp
Super Member Joined: 01/19/2011 Status: Offline Points: 113 |
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OK thanks. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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I think that while playing today, I realized that this POV is quite wrong and in a dangerous way too, because in practice what you do before and after contact does affect how the ball is contacted.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Leshxa
Gold Member Joined: 01/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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It doesn't affect HOW the ball is contacted. It affects WHERE the ball is contacted! |
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Back to table tennis...
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Let's be substantive - "how" can incorporate "where" unless we make a clear distinction.
I agree that the location of contact is important, but I also believe that some strokes (concave/convex) produce more dwell time as distinct from different contact points than other strokes (vertical/horizontal) and that this difference in dwell time/contact point can have a significant difference in effect on the ball.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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