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The great China vs Euro loop myth |
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Baal
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OK. One more gem, just in case anyone doubts potential of "Euroloop"to generate outrageous speed looping. But in this case, the guy that won didn't have the most power. Just the best anticipation.
Edited by Baal - 10/03/2012 at 9:45pm |
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power7
Silver Member Joined: 01/25/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 745 |
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But that's real TT with 38mm balls and 21 points a game...lol.
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Anderni
Super Member Joined: 08/23/2012 Status: Offline Points: 399 |
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Well it's a video of LGL. He doesn't use any straight arm stroke. Anyway my post was in response to the proposition that: a.) you need to open your arm to generate max power (obviously LGL didn't think so.) b.) bent arm loops are for less talented people who can't hit the ball with a straight arm. Wang Zeng Yi, LGL/ Wang Hao RPB hybrid with plenty power in his compact FH stroke. Edited by Anderni - 10/04/2012 at 9:48am |
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stefashka
Silver Member Joined: 11/22/2010 Location: Moldova Status: Offline Points: 588 |
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Short pips penhold (LGL, WZY) cannot be played with straight arm strokes because ball must be hit most of the time, not looped, so the hitting power is generated using other techniques - generally speaking, in SP penhold, straight arm means a technical flaw or slow footwork. Wang Hao is a looper and he plays straight arm most of the time.
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Anderni
Super Member Joined: 08/23/2012 Status: Offline Points: 399 |
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Yes, the point was that generating pure power (which is what this tangential discussion was about) is not a question of whether your elbow is bent or not. The muscle groups that create power in a TT stroke, the muscles in your legs, back, abdomen, shoulder etc, they don't care if your biceps & triceps are keeping the arm straight or bent. (With LGL/WH hybrid I meant WZY has a very complete RPB like WH.) Edited by Anderni - 10/04/2012 at 10:12am |
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power7
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As others have mention most of Wang Zeng Yi are drives over the top. He does do brush loop under the table with a straight arm against underspin.
Also he is a penholder. They can generate more spin from their wrist motion that shakehand holders cannot, so sometimes their looping swing is not as big as shakehand holders. Usually not a good idea to compare Asian penholder's swing mechanics to Euro shakehand swing mechanics. It's really apples and oranges.
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blahness
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The bent arm stroke shows its weakness mid to far range due to lack of power and reach. However, they gain a lot in speed. Look at how wang liqin exploits the deep Fh of gatien in the video Baal posted. Gatien just couldn't produce a powerful loop from that position. Of course if you're a close to table Fh player with focus on speed like Liu, timo and gatien then that's ok as it has less recovery time. Liqin Fh being the most powerful of all history, has the weakness of being slow to recover (though extremely powerful) so players like ZJK and Ma Long exploit it by jamming him with fast close to table attacks. IMO ZJK and Ma long combined the best of both worlds, speed and power, have no idea how they do that.I would like to add that the swedish players always had great powerful fhs, which are more powerful than the likes of boll and maze. I always loved to see Waldners Fh especially his 3rd ball which is always so smooth, powerful and deceptive.
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Anderni
Super Member Joined: 08/23/2012 Status: Offline Points: 399 |
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I haven't been discussing spin. The post that I replied to (and then you replied to me) said " The same person will always have more power if he opens the arm in the elbow," which is what I've been trying to dispute. This is a very simple question, no need to complicate it by talking about Euro shakehanders or generating spin. ;)
Talking about muscle group utilization, how does keeping the arm straight allow your TT muscles to generate more power? Edited by Anderni - 10/04/2012 at 11:02am |
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bonggoy
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The big difference I saw is WLQ always going to the ball vs Gatien's waiting for the ball. Lexsha mentioned this in his post about point of contact. This resulted in WLQ being always in the offensive regardless of who initiated the attack. |
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assiduous
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penholder stroke is a little different, but nontheless Ma Lin has certainly the best penhold forehand of all time and he is open armed and pretty. Wang hao has a pretty open arm too, although Ma Lins FH is much more powerful.
With the same swing an open arm has more power only because it make the arm longer and the paddle travels faster. Imagine a swing with full open arm and calculate the speed with which the elbow was moving and the speed with which the wrist was moving. It's the same player who makes only one swing, and yet the wrist will travel twice faster during the exact same motion. Let's say the swing took 1 second, just for simplicity. For this 1 second the arm concluded a 1/4 of a full rotation (90 degree swing) Since the full circle is 2pr, where r is the distance from shoulder to paddle and p = 3.14 The paddle was traveling with speed 2pr/4 per second. The elbow is only half the distance from shoulder to paddle, so r/2 you can calc yourself and see that with one and the same swing extending the paddle away from the body increases the speed and impact on the ball dramatically. You will understand then why i don't care about your opinion. I don't care if someone made a powerful shot with a bent elbow. That same shot would have been even more powerful with an open arm, and this is not up for your approval and consideration, it is a fact of physics.
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Anderni
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No, you can't simplify human physiology like this, and say that a fully fit TT athlete will make a straight arm 1/4 rotation in the same amount of time he/she uses to make a bent arm 1/4 rotation.
You're attempting to model something as complex as a TT stroke, which uses a large number of muscles ranging from foot to wrist. And you're modeling it as if it's a mechanical joint powered by a single electrical motor. You can't just assume that any given person will be able to swing his/her straight arm at the same speed as he/she can swing a bent arm. Knowing the facts of physics is one thing. The problem is applying those physics to a human playing TT. Edited by Anderni - 10/04/2012 at 2:51pm |
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Baal
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I think that's right. But that had nothing to do with arm position during the loop and more with footwork and mobility (and age difference when this video was made). The Gatien of ten years earlier was more mobile than in this video, just hard to find good quality video of him then. One thing for sure, he could rip the crap out of the ball. Of course, this is also right about the time when WLQ was fast becoming IMHO the greatest shakehand player of all time. |
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FireHorse
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To me, I think Gatien did not wait for the ball when in the rally. I believe that he did wait for the ball when it was coming at him as backspin but once it's in the fast rally, Gatien topspin everything mostly on top-of-the-bounce.
I think the difference b/w Gatien and Wang Liqin is that Gatien staying closer to the table than Wang Liqin. It could be that Wang Liqin is a little taller and uses straight arm loops while Gatien is a little bit shorter and uses bent arm loops.
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FireHorse
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Edited by FireHorse - 10/04/2012 at 2:42pm |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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I can see you guys can have a good argument without me.
You two are talking past each other and not talking about the same thing. Anderni, given his assumption that the extended and non-extend stroked will alway take 1 second, he is right. However, that 1 second stroke is a very slow stroke and not energy or strength limited. You are assuming that the strokes are made with the same amount of energy and very quickly ( high power ) and then you are right. Why?
I think Anderni should look up inertia and how it is affect when the mass is moved away from the axis of rotation. It may help him with his argument but that would require learning some physics.
Not enough.
True, people are not well defined shapes nor is the density of people consistent. That makes doing calculations on people difficult but it certainly isn't hard to back your statement with a little physics. How does the extension of the arm affect the rotational inertia?
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Baal
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The loop is generated by the whole body, not just the arm. After a player hits the loop, they need to be immediately ready for the next shot, which constrains what they can do. It is obvious from watching real players that the extension of the elbow or not is not the important thing determining the success of the shot or the recovery since World Champions have had strokes that vary considerably in this respect. And the ones with straighter arms are not all Chinese, dating back to Klampar at least. Watch also video of Schlager or for that matter, Jorgen Persson on the forehand. Compare to Kong Linghui or Gatien. All of these are world champions.
Of course I don't expect these observations to trump overly simplistic theories for some people. |
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Anderni
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Perhaps engineers should read up on physiology so they don't think this entire argument hinges (literally) on inertia. But your sentiment is understood and appreciated, pnachtwey. ;) Physics is an interesting subject but the laws need to be applied with some thought and consideration of what you're attempting to model. Edited by Anderni - 10/04/2012 at 3:07pm |
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Anton Chigurh
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I agree, and your post reminds me of two funny things. This: And this joke, that I originally heard on this site but had to look it up online to remember all of it: A group of wealthy investors wanted to be able to predict the outcome of a horse race. So they hired a group of biologists, a group of statisticians, and a group of physicists. Each group was given a year to research the issue. After one year, the groups all reported to the investors. The biologists said that they could genetically engineer an unbeatable racehorse, but it would take 200 years and $100 billion. The statisticians reported next. They said that they could predict the outcome of any race, at a cost of $100 million per race, and they would only be right 10% of the time. Finally, the physicists reported that they could also predict the outcome of any race, and that their process was cheap and simple. The investors listened eagerly to this proposal. The head physicist reported, "We have made several simplifying assumptions. First, let each horse be a perfect rolling sphere . . ." There is some important truth embedded in this humor that will be overlooked by some of the less talented and inflexible physicists. Fortunately, I have had the pleasure to know many highly talented physicists (and mathematicians) who are very aware of the limitations of their discipline and who are humble and responsible with its application. Edited by Anton Chigurh - 10/04/2012 at 7:47pm |
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ttTurkey
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Hehe, well said. I see lots of evidence for the Dunning-Kruger effect from the less talented physicists on this forum. The more talented physicists and mathematicians that I know are well aware of their own limitations as well as the current limitations of their field. |
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power7
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Think baseball. Fastest pitch come from those that can extend their arms the farthest in a controlled manner. All just water filled levers. You keep talking about "power." What do you mean exactly? In Newtonian physics terms? Relativity? When people extend their arms out they are usually exerting the most force to have the highest paddle speed (players observe themselves to be powerful). But from the balls point of the view the paddle is moving twice as fast as the player thinks they are hitting the ball at (balls observe players to be twice as powerful). From the wrist point of view the paddle is barely moving at all (the wrist thinks the player is a wimp). You're making the false assumption that the people exert the same effort for all FH swings. There is no conservation of angular momentum. No one is going to spin on their toes with the paddle in their mouth to generate the fastest paddle speed to hit the TT ball. |
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GoldenDragoon
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I think Baal has already hit the nail on the head... Its irrelevant what is the best way of doing something. What is relevant is the best way for an individual to achieve something. In simple terms what works for one person may not work for another so it is hard (and seriously naive) to assume any that x ball must always be hit with y stroke.
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Baal
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OK. Ckeck out the guy in the blue withe the "Chinese loop" -- at least if you look at just his arm.
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hallur
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The guy in the blue? That is the biggest understatement I've ever heard...
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king_pong
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Pretty good, "that guy in blue". After he wins though, he acts as if he'd never won anything before, rolling all over on the floor like that. His "team in blue" seem really thrilled
Edited by king_pong - 10/05/2012 at 2:57pm |
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Baal
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Yes. It is a very dark blue. |
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V-Griper
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I think their may some confusion when some people see the the C players use a "bent arm loop"(BAL). The main difference is whether or not the arm remains at relative angle of 90' during the entire stroke cycle. The C players almost always start with a relatively straight arm, around 160' or so, then bend it, or not, as required or chosen for the stroke they want to execute. They can keep the arm straight for more power or snap the elbow closed when pressed for time and/or distance. Applegren Persson and Waldner all executed this type of forehand to a greater or lesser degree. However Boll, Maze, Samsonov etc... all keep their arms bent throughout the entire stroke.
ML- Ma Long's fh is somewhat unique and is, imho, a significant advancement in fh technique. I may off course be wrong, but I think the key to his fh, as well as his bh, is the use of his left arm. My ,hypothesis is that it acts as a counter weight when he pulls it in. The accelerated mass of his left arm applies a torque to the upper torso which then is directly applied to the right arm. Bending his left arm at the elbow condenses the mass. It's like firing a trebuchet. Bent left arm=counter weight Left shoulder= counter weight attachment to lever arm Spine of upper back between shoulders= pivot/fulcrum Right shoulder= attachment to rope Right arm= rope Right hand/paddle= sling Among other benefits this allows him to keep his arm relatively straight but not sacrifice as much swing speed/acceleration.
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racquetsforsale
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The left arm thing is perhaps a page from tennis FH mechanics. In tennis though, the primary functions for the left arm extension is balance and finding the contact zone.
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pnachtwey
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So where is your model? I don't need a model to notice that when a skater starts spinning and brings her arms in that she spins faster.
So where is your model? If you don't have one then don't bother to criticize those that making the best estimates they can without one. I don't need a model to tell me that mass that is rotating farther way from the center of rotation will have more inertia than mass that is rotating closer to the center of rotation. If you twist your whole body the center of rotation becomes the COG, or close to it, of the body but the radius is larger and that increases the rotational inertia. Also one must include the rotating the body. The question all you have failed to ask is what is the optimal radius of rotation of the paddle? The inertia goes up with the radius of the mass squared. The velocity of the paddle goes up with the radius of rotation. |
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smackman
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[/quote] So where is your model? I don't need a model to notice that when a skater starts spinning and brings her arms in that she spins faster.
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Baal
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I don't need a mathematical model to know that the habitual arm position during a forehand loop is different among several different former world champions and other great players, all of whom had incredible forehands. It can be proved from youtube, and you know, actually watching good players and noticing that they aren't all the same. This indicates that it is one of the less important things that go into making this particular shot. There are some things they all do. They all get a lot of rotation around their torso, and they all stay in perfect balance after their loops to get ready for the next shot, which is incredibly important in real rallies. It's not hard to see that Schlager and Ma Long, for example, tend to have their arms pretty straight, Kong is more relaxed at the elbow, and Philou (and also Timo Boll) exemplifies the classic "chicken wing" position. We can extend it to penholders. Xiu Xin is usually more extended at the elbow and Wang Hao is generally more relaxed. Also some of these guys are Chinese and some aren't, not that it matters much. pnacthwey, I was beginning to wonder if you could possibly be an even bigger ........., and you're not disappointing me.
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