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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Thanks. Be sure to tell my opponents so they tell me. I do have a problem with tossing the ball as part of my serve prep routine that I need to stop doing, but the serve it self is a high enough toss to give people time to play the ball and even the umpires at my club have not complained.
Edited by NextLevel - 12/23/2016 at 10:26am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tuly007
Member Joined: 09/17/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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Toss the ball....where is it ???
Please review the video and tell the minute when u toss at least 6 inch high up in the air U just developed a hand movement that basically throw the ball towards u....2 feet, easy for u being so tall IMHo. Those serves were ...all...not good.... |
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still testing
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Thanks for bringing it up. You are the first person to mention it. Will fix it since it is not integral to my serving. Just for you, I will post a serve practice video so you can see that these things are accidents. What's happening is that I am starting the toss too far in front of where I intend to make contact. If I shift the toss point backwards, that will fix most of the problems. As for the height, 6 inches is the height of the net. But I serve better with higher tosses so I will just change that.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tuly007
Member Joined: 09/17/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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rule 2.06.02 states
"Ball must be tossed upwards from a open palm at lest 16 cm/ 6 inches after it left the hand in a straight line" It is left to the umpire to decide what the straight line is since it doesn't say what's the max angle would be in either side of the player So, I'm sure others here would know more but that's what I found about it...... But, since u are an advanced player that chose to be in a public video site, it easy for me or others to see .....the good ...the bad ...and the ugly...LOL sounds like poetry...to learn and/or criticize in a constructive way for the benefit of all... Edited by Tuly007 - 12/23/2016 at 2:10pm |
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still testing
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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There can be a few reasons why no one has mentioned these complaints before. Maybe prior opponents didn't feel it impacted their games; maybe your opponents like you too much; maybe they don't want to get into arguments (very common); or maybe they're too busy trying to return the serve to spend time studying legality (that's usually me). That said, there are some definite issues. I studied your last two videos from this thread. Against Larry you mostly used BH serves, which is just as well because the camera angle made it hard to see your FH serves properly. Against Parthsarthy you mainly used FH serves and I could see those clearly. For both kinds of serves you have a tendency to follow the ball toss upwards with your tossing hand. This means that sometimes the toss does not rise 6" above the hand. I don't see how this can give you an advantage and I certainly wouldn't complain about it, but it is illegal. Your FH serve has a severe problem with the backwards toss. It's not only illegal for too much horizontal motion but it also means the contact point is hidden from any left-handed opponent (I have a lot of experience with this, which is why I don't like backwards tosses). You can try fixing it by making the start of your toss further away from the table, but that may not work for you. Your current timing and service swing motion are both designed to work with that backwards toss. I would expect at least some umpires to call you on this backwards toss. What really struck me, however, was that you don't serve from a stationary hand. Ever. For both kinds of serves (FH and BH), you pick up the ball and then throw it up without pause. That's very illegal and does give an advantage (because it throws off the timing of your opponents) and I would expect to have an umpire call it. In one point against Larry, you actually picked up the ball and started your toss while he was still walking back to the table. He didn't say anything and maybe it didn't bother him, but he definitely wasn't ready when the serve started. I'm not trying to criticize you. I enjoy watching your videos, which look a lot better than mine would. I'd even love to visit your club someday (but I don't know where it is). And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't complain if I were playing you. I just thought that since the topic was brought up, I would give a review.
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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Interesting stuff. I played NL a few matches in August and had no trouble seeing the serve contact, but I'm right-handed. I catch quick serves - that happens a lot in Florida where I live - and I don't remember any problem with that vs NL either. The not-straight toss is clearly illegal, though I wonder how much difference does it make? I mostly toss the ball not-straight, sometimes too far towards my body, sometimes away, or back from the table to where I have to reach out and get it. That certainly doesn't make my serves better in any way. But NL is in a different class from me serving, maybe it gives him an advantage.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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You don't have to not try to criticize me and do so. There's nothing wrong with criticism. Quick serving, I have been accused of and have had opponents complain, though the older the opponent, the more the complaint. But that I definitely have tried to fix though I think my internal clock is now clearly unreliable and I have to do something more deliberate like counting to 5 or 10. But even then, it is more for my benefit than the opponent, as in TT, you are always allowed to raise your hand to stop the opponent from serving. I need it because I serve too many faults.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Left handers have no problem seeing the contact either - the only time ( a league match 3 weeks ago) someone complained about my serve being hidden, it was a right hander and he pushed too many into the net. But that happens to many people and had nothing to do with the serve being hidden. I actually serve better with higher tosses so I think this is just a habit grounded in laziness,
Edited by NextLevel - 12/23/2016 at 4:05pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Look at the last two tosses here.
[irl]https://youtu.be/jWJwPLIZ1N8?t=780[/url] I just
1. have to fix my palm 2. count to 5 and 3. toss the ball higher or toss it closer to where I serve, which was my original toss but which has changed unconsciously (been watching too much ZJK). It will be interesting to see if my serves get easier to return. I think I know what is going to happen but we shall see. And at least, I will be legal. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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I agree that quick serving can also mess up your own game; at least, it's a problem I've seen with other people who serve like that. However, I think it also impacts your opponent by throwing off their timing in receive. They might not even realize it's a problem (depends upon how experienced they are). And only some people do the whole "raising your hand thing." I also am pretty confident that left-handed players have some problems seeing you contact. I'm very experienced with this and I never complain any more because the righties either argue (which I don't like) or they say they'll fix it but they really can't. You can't assume that just because people don't complain doesn't mean they don't have an issue.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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I am also used to older people saying things that they are sure are true but quite don't show up when discussed.
Here are matches vs three left handers (coincidentally all not using inverted on the BH). Where are the issues seeing my contact? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwY-GaeeAx0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdj-5e4hEp4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaBkRmbWsMo Here is one who actually made me struggle until my teammate told me what to serve to him and I still had to struggle to pull it out when he adjusted - where is the trouble seeing my contact? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgDHkGi_06I I didn't develop any of these habits to cheat as they are all unconscious things that come along and in practical matches, opponents almost never comment on them. I am sure if comments were made, I could easily adjust. But I think that the tossing backwards has to be defintiely fixed as well as the quick serving. But I don't think they are major fixes as I have the tools to fix them already and those tools may actually lead to more dangerous serves. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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piligrim
Premier Member Joined: 06/21/2011 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 5307 |
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on first game you played against Terence Yeung? Did you beat him? |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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That's the second time you've made a remark about "older people". Which older people are we talking about? I don't see any in this discussion. Moreover, I don't see older people as somehow whining more -- they just tend to speak their mind more.
And this is why there is no point in telling someone that their service is illegally hidden -- because they'll struggle so hard to prove they're not, when they really are. I should have known better than to say anything here. You're clearly hiding the contact on most of your FH serves, even in these videos. The first video, with Berg, he compensates by returning everything with his pips, even when it's on his FH side of the table. The pips give him a lot more tolerance for misreading your serve. On the rare occasion where you send a serve out to his far FH side and he can't or won't use his pips, he lets the balls drop so that he has time to make a better (late) read before rolling it back on the table (not an aggressive return). For the second player, Rountree, you only used your FH serve about a third of the time. You mixed it up with your BH serve and a couple of tomahawk serves, and I don't have any problem with those. If you watch carefully, you'll see that Rountree had a much harder time returning your FH serves aggressively the way he handled your other serves. That would indicate he had a much harder time reading those FH serves. The third player, Bradley, also uses a lot of pips for returns, which means he doesn't care that much about a precise reading on your spin. And you used a lot more BH serves (unlike your match with Berg), which again means that hiding serves isn't an issue. There are so few examples in this video of Bradley receiving your FH serve with his FH rubber that I can't really draw any conclusions. The fourth player, Goldstein, is a little trickier to assess. He's got smooth on the BH (black side) but it doesn't seem to be bothered much by your spin. On the other hand, when you send a FH serve out to his far FH side, he almost always returns with a really weak chop, then kind of thing you'd expect from someone uncertain about the spin. I find this video inconclusive as to whether he was bothered much by your FH serve. Simply hiding contact doesn't mean the receiver will always miss the serve, or else no one would have been able to play in the old days of hidden serves. It just means that its harder to judge the spin, forcing receivers to make late adjustments and sometimes miss. A more skilled player is likely to have less problems with this, but all players will have some problems if you have a good variety of spin on your serve. And players can compensate. A pips player uses his pips. A looper might choose to stand further over to his FH side for a better view around your body (but leaving him vulnerable to a fast, down the line serve). Also, your contact isn't always hidden. Sometimes you toss the ball only a little backwards and sometimes you toss it backwards a lot. You seem to video your matches a lot. Try this as a test: the next time you play a *right handed* player, put a camera behind the location where a lefty would receive service. So presumably the right handed receiver stands in his BH (left side) corner, not blocking your camera view of the table. And you would be on the far side of the table, serving from your left (BH) corner. So the camera sees you doing a FH serve while looking down the line. That should give you an idea of what your serve really looks like to a lefty.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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My serve is not always the same and while it might not be obvious, I made accommodations to the receiver. I am not surprised that you didn't acknowledge this in your lawyerly arguments.
In every match posted, I am playing a player rated about 150-300 pts lower rated than I am. In every match, they are returning most of my serves consistently and even when they make mistakes, are not radically misjudging the spin or contact - they push backspin and roll or hit topspin. Yet you have made a lawyerly argument that this is not the case by going as far as to describe a typical return by Berg as being evidence of a serve reading problem. The point is not the illegality of the serve toss, which has been admitted, but whether the contact is hidden and can be shown by the problems people have returning the serves. Anyone who watches the matches, especially if they have played any of these players before, can make up their minds as to whether the players have problems reading the serves or not. One of them had radical problems returning the serve for one game, and this was the player that evidence of issues with my serve were inconclusive according to you. In any case, time to fix the serves. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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I didn't note any accommodations because I didn't notice them and wasn't looking for them. I'm not a lawyer but I do like logic. The problem with these videos is that just like when we play the "What's My Rating" game, it's hard to judge a lot from video. Not only is there a question of the camera angle, but you're looking at a small subset of play -- a few matches with a few players. That's why I suggested that you make a video test, placing your camera where a lefty would stand. You don't even have to do it during a match -- you could do it during your service practice. Why am I so adamant about this? Because I'm left-handed and I've played many players whose service look like yours, and I know that I can't see the ball. That's just my personal experience.
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schen
Gold Member Joined: 03/26/2013 Location: San Diego, CA Status: Offline Points: 1244 |
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A tough and by far my most enjoyable match with all close sets, but he beat me 3-1, 12-10 in the fourth set if i remember it right. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Sure. The point is that you haven't played ME. And I have shown repeatedly that there is video evidence that my serve contact is plainly visible. Yet when I talk in terms of stereotypes, you get offended. But when I show you video evidence of lower rated left handed players repeatedly returning my serves properly, you still want to rely on your own stereotypes? I will let you have the last word until I post new video. But the way I would serve a right hander is not the way I would serve a left hander. That is my point but you are so logical you can't accept the evidence. As Spock and Holmes said, logic must give way to facts. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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And when I play any lefty with a pendulum serve, sometimes I have to stand all the way over in my backhand corner to see it. It's annoying. Lefties are already essentially cheating by being left-handed, so I don't feel sorry for them one bit. Edited by Ringer84 - 12/24/2016 at 12:04am |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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I'm sorry to have upset you. That was not my intention. We're not going to agree on what those videos demonstrate so there's no point in arguing over that. I wish you well with your games however your service works out.
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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Now this looks more like a classic case of baiting. But don't worry, I'm not offended. Left-handed players can certainly cause the same problem for righties that righties cause for lefties. It's all a question of how you choose to position the impact on the ball relative to your body. I don't approve of it when lefties do it either.
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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The only solution to this is for NL to attend Stellan camp in March, so he and benfb can play in person, with video.
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piligrim
Premier Member Joined: 06/21/2011 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 5307 |
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do you have full match? really want to see it ... |
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schen
Gold Member Joined: 03/26/2013 Location: San Diego, CA Status: Offline Points: 1244 |
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I do, I'll try to edit a short form version of it just for you
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mickd
Forum Moderator Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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It won't just be for him, hopefully :)
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schen
Gold Member Joined: 03/26/2013 Location: San Diego, CA Status: Offline Points: 1244 |
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Alright I just finished editing the video and it's rendering now.
A few thoughts if I had to play him again after re-watching this match... - I need to keep the short game away from his forehand flip - he was much more comfortable there than on his backhand side and I had difficulty returning the flatter FH flip ball. This didn't click in my head for a while because most people I know (including me) have a much weaker FH flip than BH and I assumed such going into the match. The only balls that worked to his short FH were very wide slide receives, anything else was death. - I should've stopped trying to serve fast and long, normally this works well for me in Vegas because people have difficulty moving on the concrete and the high altitude exaggerates the ball speed/kick, but Terence is just too quick for me to play that game. - More kicking serves into the short middle especially since he is a lefty that favors his FH flip, or wide half-long (anti-lefty serve... I need to practice this more) to his FH. - Except for two very noticeable instances, he almost always opened cross court with his FH. I realized this halfway through the second set and wasn't able to capitalize on it until the 3rd with my blocks, but it was too late at that point. - Less punching and more looping on my backhand side Video coming soon.
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schen
Gold Member Joined: 03/26/2013 Location: San Diego, CA Status: Offline Points: 1244 |
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Aaand, here's the video:
PS. that was the first time (and only time so far) I've ever used the HL5 blade in a match. Aside from a few opening errors, not bad for a debut and way more interesting rallies than with my RW5 Final scores with Terence were: 4,9,-7,11
Edited by schen - 12/24/2016 at 12:38pm |
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ZingyDNA
Platinum Member Joined: 09/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 2373 |
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Whoa, that's some statement
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piligrim
Premier Member Joined: 06/21/2011 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 5307 |
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Thank you for video Chen
Edited by piligrim - 12/24/2016 at 12:56pm |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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What rubbers do you use?
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schen
Gold Member Joined: 03/26/2013 Location: San Diego, CA Status: Offline Points: 1244 |
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H3Neo on FH and T05 on BH on this one
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