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TIBHAR MX-P review |
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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Yes that would be good to see. It would also be interesting to hear how different people judge how much spin is on the ball. You can judge it by the trajectory, the kick off the table, the block off your opponents bats, etc. What appears to be higher or lower spin, may possibly be explained by other factors. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I definitely agree. Tenergy 05 tends to mess up the timing of loopers/blockers because of its arc. That's not necessarily the same thing as ball rotation, though there are ways to show it is very closely related. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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When I slapped on FX-P on the Arirang (had Aurus on it before) my Div 1 opponent/partner told me my loops troubled him a LOT more (with FX-P) (Loops dropped earlier and were spinnier).
Testing different rubbers on same blade is one way to know. I do the opposite for testing blades and use the same rubbers if I can (Aurus/XP 2008) (Since I know exactly what I will get from them) (control)
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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Vlad0
Super Member Joined: 04/20/2014 Location: Bulgaria Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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I think comparing a driving rubber (MX-P) with a looping one (T05) is really pointless. They require different technique. Even from Tibhar recommended me to use Aurus series instead Evolutions cause i was used to looping rubbers and personally for me Aurus is much more close to tenergy than MX-P. I agree with BH-Man about FX-P - higher arch, more control, you can inflict spin from it on more shots. This low arch of MX-P is probably for pros who already have built excellent technique.
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seguso
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2010 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 1619 |
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It depends on the shot. For example, on powerloops, T05 spins less than M1 turbo. that is due to the much harder sponge of M1 turbo. So in this sense ESN has cought up on spin. But then you get less spin in other situations (m1 turbo for example does not have the mechanical spin that T05 has). Edited by seguso - 06/10/2015 at 4:02am |
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pg5x - mxd fh & bh - 2015 video
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Olio
Super Member Joined: 03/27/2012 Location: UK / France Status: Offline Points: 237 |
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Thanks. That feels like you really value my comment. NL, you sometimes make good points on forums, but you can also be very arsy when there is no need. We're happy to listen to opinions on these forums. When you write it seems that only YOU hold THE TRUTH. Do you think your style of play, touch and skills allow you to judge rubbers better than anybody else? Get real.
Video won't show much apart from how good they look on selected shots. You can't judge how much spin ZJK puts in his serves and topspins. Particularly if you don't know how good the other guy is and whether he's in a good day, or a good blocker... or... As for me, I play with spin. That's my game. Short loaded serves, and BH and FH topspins, with very heavy spin. I'm currently ranked around #600 in the UK, and have not lost to any player this season ranked above #400 (UK). I'm also a coach at our local club. I have a good technique and I can tell you there is at least as much spin in MX-P than in T05. I have 2 Maze blades, one with T05 / O4P, and one with MX-P / VP, so it's easy to compare the two.
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Tassie52
Gold Member Joined: 10/09/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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That's what I am ready to debate. I drive the ball pretty consistently and I seriously doubt that M1Turbo or MX-S has more spin on power loops. In fact, it is the fact that T05 slows down the power loop that intrigues me.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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seguso
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2010 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 1619 |
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@nextlevel
this is my experience... I was the a blocker, not the looper; the looper was the guy in my video, a big guy with a lot of power. He had been using t05 on fh for years, but I saw clearly that he was bottoming it out consistently. as result, against backspin, he could either brush loop or powerloop; if he brushlooped he only got spin (huge spin) but little speed. if he powerlooped he got big speed but poor spin and poor arc. This is saw when blocking. So I told him: t05 is too soft for you; try my m1 turbo, and you will be able to get both spin and speed at the same time. He did, he stuck m1 turbo on his nittaku redshank, and instantly I saw the improvement: that kind of powerloop which you see in tv, which is both fast and dips violently, and accelerates towards you suddenly. He too felt this immediately. (Of course to obtain this he also had to impact the ball a bit more tangentially, like chinese rubbers). This was one year ago, and he has kept m1 turbo since, and his level has improved a lot (reaching #130 Italy). Now he laughs when he talks about t05. He had worked around the problems of t05 by brush looping more than usual, because if he powerlooped he would get only speed but no spin and arc. In the meantime I did the reverse: I took off m1 turbo because I have less power than him, and can't always hit with enough power ; I am better with m1 or mx-p. That's the story. my question too you is: have you tried powerlooping against underspin with m1 turbo? Edited by seguso - 06/10/2015 at 8:44am |
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pg5x - mxd fh & bh - 2015 video
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I always value comments and I apologize if you don't feel valued. Sure - the "arsiness" is my way of asking you to substantiate your position. I could do it more politely too. It's more a stress/mood thing than an objectivity thing.
Thanks. That gives me a better idea where you are coming from. Would ask questions but at this point, I've ruined any possibility of good faith. Let's leave it at that.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Olio
Super Member Joined: 03/27/2012 Location: UK / France Status: Offline Points: 237 |
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I don't hold grudges, if that helps...
As a reference regarding spin, the Vega Pro is already supposed to be a very spinny rubber, not up to T05 but not far. Well the MX-P is way spinnier. Easy to see as well, on the same topspin to bloc exercise, very few mistakes by my partner is I play with VP, many mistakes (blocked off the table) when I play with MX-P.
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Bran
Super Member Joined: 06/18/2013 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 367 |
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Olio, let us know about the MX-P vs the MX-S if you try it.
It's a good candidate for me as I'll probably give up on the MX-S after this sheet. Maybe I'll give booster a try, I find the low throw quite difficult to deal with away from the table. Loop on loop and rallying in general isn't that easy. Blocking is great and opening is fine too, be it spinny or aggressive, but it's tough in rallies. |
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parhelia9
Member Joined: 02/06/2010 Location: Malaysia Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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well after read this , i quickly back home to open up so call " pro player version" of evo FX-P , the cover was written " made in germany " with small ittf logo , mean while the top sheet does not have anything ..only a few japanese word which i dont understand
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return to XIOM amadues (little mozart)
FH :XIOM TAU I BH :Cornilleau Pulse Racer |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Did you friend boost his Tenergy or the M1 Turbo? Just curious. I haven't used M1 Turbo but I know this - M1 Turbo has a hard sponge. Powerlooping underspin always feels better with a harder sponge. Whether that means it is spinnier is an open question. Tack and surface grip have to be looked at as well.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Throw a ball in a parabola without spin. The arc is caused by gravity. You can also get significant spin on a drive. It's the spin to speed ratio that might be different. In fact, when most people say spin, what we really mean is spin to speed. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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seguso
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2010 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 1619 |
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I just asked him... he says he did not boost t05 (but everybody else did), and does not boost M1 turbo now. I think after a certain power, spin depends mostly on hardness. Though I haven't tried them, I conjecture that any modern 50deg esn rubber will spin more than t05 on powerloops. |
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pg5x - mxd fh & bh - 2015 video
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I understand what you are saying and I agree in some respects but here is my last question - when did he last use Tenergy 05 and has he used Tenergy 05 with his new stroke? The main reason I am asking is that some people do not like the feel of Tenergy 05 when they drive loop really hard and that is what prevents them from using it aggressively, as opposed to it actually bottoming out. Your friend may not be one of them, but just food for thought. M1 Turbo is very likely to be boosted, even if your friend doesn't boost it, though the booster wears off of course.
Edited by NextLevel - 06/10/2015 at 3:05pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tassie52
Gold Member Joined: 10/09/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
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In this conversation, we're talking about arc as something other than the work of gravity. Topspin causes the ball to describe a much shorter parabola than gravity alone would dictate, and the degree of difference is related directly to ball rotation. No one ever increases the arc by topspinning the ball less.
For example, one of my regular sparring partners produces huge arc on his forehand loop using Reflectoid! (And as a result he routinely messes up "the timing of loopers/blockers".) Could he produce the same amount of arc using T05? No. Because he would have to change his stroke mechanics - something he appears to be incapable of. Most of us would love him to change his rubber from Reflectoid to T05 because it would mess up our blocking less.
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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It should not be forgotten that the arc is largely due to how the ball leaves the racquet - spin simply dictates how that arc changes over time as the ball floats through the air. A rubber with more friction will throw the ball in a higher arc, given an upward-directed topspin stroke.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Your struggles are typical for anyone who doesn't have the required experiences to assimilate the statement unproblematically - after all, statements always are contextual and never absolute. One can produce huge arc on a regular slow loop with just about any rubber. When you produce it on a loop drive with a rubber, it is truly special. My training partner said that Tenergy 05 slows my loop (drive) down. He didn't say that when I used MX-S, his point being that my loop travelled in a higher arc with Tenergy 05 that it didn't travel in with MX-S, though I was loop driving with both rubbers. Hope that helps.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Not so much any grudges - it's just that my play with MX-S and MX-P and the changes in loop quality I have seen when people switch to T05 have prejudiced me to an unreasonable point. After using everything but Tenergy 05 for the last 7 months, it's just startling to be reacquainted with it again and to see the crazy effects it is having on people I usually play without issues (and yes, I am having all the issues with service return etc. with unfamiliar opponents).
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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seguso
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2010 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 1619 |
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he says he wouldn't be able to do the new stroke with t05 because t05 has too much catapult. And says with m1 turbo against backspin he can hit more fully (less tangentially); if he did that with t05 , the ball would shoot straight and the ball would hit the wall. note: there he is talking about powerloop against backspin. in powerloop against flat ball, the opposite is true: with m1 turbo you have to hit more tangentially (more brushed) than with t05. he says t05 is probably better in that case. but not in counterloop or against backspin. so it is not a matter of feeling. the problem is that with t05 there seems to be no way to do the "proper" stroke, a stroke that has both big spin (arc) and big speed. Who uses t05 can only brush loop or do very fast and low-spin powerloops which have very little margin for error (and in this case they must be very skilled, pro level). This is confirmed by my experience, both in the two weeks I used t05, and with the other players I know who use t05 (most better than me). |
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pg5x - mxd fh & bh - 2015 video
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the_theologian
Premier Member Joined: 01/11/2009 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 3895 |
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This post really helped me make sense of all this. |
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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ttping85
Gold Member Joined: 04/09/2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 1061 |
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Interesting discussions here. The amount of spin a player can produce with a rubber really depends on his technique. Personally I have my best performances in terms of spin and speed with medium to medium - hard rubbers. With everything softer than 42 degrees or harder than 45 degrees my performances will be lower.
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koshkin
Silver Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 523 |
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That is very true. I have a thin brushing contact and a long looping stroke and I strongly prefer harder sponged rubbers because of that. Softer sponges top out too easily for the way I hit the ball. ILya
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BTY Mazunov ST
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