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Coachvideo on how to loop underspin with tacky rub |
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assiduous
Platinum Member Joined: 05/01/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2521 |
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Ok, if you have way into Chicagoland let me know and will set up a match.
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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assiduous
Platinum Member Joined: 05/01/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2521 |
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I was out yesterday but looking through AgenHEX's posts i think my opinion overlaps completely on this particular wrist issue. I agree with the example throwing the stone and that there is some wrist on over the table ZJK-like opening loop and some odd balls where you want to send the ball in different direction in the last second.
Generally all beginners when introduced to topspin they start weird jerking with the wrist. Not only it is unnecessary, but it's counter productive and can lead to injuries in the long run. Newbies brush too much and wrist too much and avoid good deep contact with the ball. You have to make good contact with the ball, there is no substitute for that. You have to feel the weight of the ball. If you make a good contact and open the paddle and swing with everything you have, all joints, not just the wrist - you have good power and believe me, it will not lack spin.
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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You continue to have this penchant for calling me out even though it's never worked and only resulted in hilarious embarrassment thus far. We can reasonably conclude from this that learning from mistakes is not a strength here, which would explain the plethora of them, so keep this mind as we move along. First, as already explain several times, both the fundamental "strength" of the wrist both in terms of muscle and physics is so small compared to the arm that it matters much less in a loop (a power stroke) than you continue to figure. Second, a common amateur mistake/tendency is that players also tense up the arm a bit more too when they try to keep the wrist locked. Again, a simple experiment was proposed many times so you can see this for yourself rather than trust in anyone's authority. Try to keep the wrist from moving at all while you make the throw and see how far you get. Third, and this one is more of a nuanced pedagogical point so I expect the inevitably pedantic reply will attach here. When teaching something, do you teach as it would be used or slowly build step by step? This would depend on the student, capability of the teacher, and specifics of what is taught. IMO in this case, the power loop motion itself is simple enough there's no reason to go with gimpy half-measures, esp for faster learners (jr's, etc). Just swing slower/more relaxed for less power and more control. Others can disagree and that's ok because there's some level of subjective judgement here.
No shit sherlock. Use looser arm for more power on slower balls that require addition of spin than fast ones. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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This is a surprisingly correct post. Not entirely correct, but let's not ruin a good thing. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Narcissism as a disorder does take many forms, including the exaggeration of the importance of one's actions. I have not any "mistakes" worth mentioning unless you can point out what the practical consequences of my mistakes are, other than that your perception of them bloats your ego.
I think you are taking the phrase "strength" so literally that it is clouding your judgment. First of all, the wrist can be fatigued, so getting some strength in the helps if one uses the wrist a lot for looping and flicking. Secondly, extra strength allows for faster torquing of the wrist. Wrist flexibility helps quite a bit as well, so both go hand in hand. And in terms of velocity, the wrist can pretty fast, in fact much faster the arm, making it very helpful for matching/exceeding the speed you need to loop heavy chop.
This is true, but it doesn't mean that you can't do more than simply let the wrist go through with the stroke and play at a high level, which is what I was pointing out. Moreover, the analogy to table tennis has its limits, but I digress.
Power looping as you conceive of it is not the only way to loop. I mean, look at Timo Boll's loop. Anyone who watches it and thinks that all Timo Boll is doing is relaxing his wrists is just mental.
No, not the addition of spin, but the difficulty of the timing. It is harder to time a fast ball. Heavy chop is slow, but many players would encourage you to use wrists when looping it. And the main point you were supposed to get from this is that letting the wrist go through naturally is what he asks beginners to do - using the wrist more is what he expects from players as they get better.
Edited by NextLevel - 09/04/2013 at 7:02pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Not coming there anytime soon, but will keep it in mind. Usually, I'm good from Boston to Virgina Beach.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Complete inaccurate idea of how a stroke works aside, this is the most recent embarrassment so #fail that not even I could imagine it to be true at first. Try pondering the more realistic view that generally speaking I would be to you what you are to assiduous, then you might be better able to empathize with my situation. To be clear, I'm not even claiming this to be advanced nevermind omnipotent, only that some folks' understanding can be unimaginably bad.
Sure, any particular weakness in the body parts involved is not conducive to the stroke. I'm not sure why you feel this bears repeating given nobody disagrees with it. The relative strength argument is one someone who's ever worked with numbers or any task where one thing is bigger than another should be able to figure out but it's not the first I've overestimated you.
The wrist "snap" in a whip motion is not in itself torqued (ie by musculature), and in any case it's rather insignificant anyway if the reader can figure out what it means when one thing is bigger than another.
It is the basis of the stroke, one which takes a long time to master, but advanced players might find useful to tweak for minor advantages. We are not those players despite what you might think.
Stylistically speaking some people might prefer a shorter stroke or wherever but the basic mechanics are the same. The wrist in itself adds maybe 20% or so even when taking full advantage of swinging arm (likely much less using muscles only), so it's conceivable that someone figures out how to use it slightly more or less without messing up the rest of the stroke. However no pro can survive at highest level without an overall good swing esp now the glue days are over.
I don't think he's as dumb as you interpret him to be. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Or I suppose it's possible that NextLevel is just getting ready to launch this revolutionary new insight into the unsuspecting world of athletics. Soon we might start seeing baseball pitchers "wristing" their fastballs for an extra few mph, and footballers will "ankle" their superkicks right past befuddled goalkeepers. All the previous advice to get power from major body parts (ie loop kill from legs and waist) will be relegated to the history books, so remember this is where it all started folks.
Edited by AgentHEX - 09/04/2013 at 8:08pm |
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TTFrenzy
Super Member Joined: 03/16/2012 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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For gods sake, stop hating and arguing . It's pointless. You are both right, but you seem to argue about imaginary details just to appear better than the other. So f#$#% childish.
The wrist snap is an essential part of a perfect loop and in their own personal characteristic way agenthex and nextlevel are both correct. end of story
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pingpongpaddy
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1286 |
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The River Of The Arrow must be in another thread. Keep searching guys. Enlightenment beckons, and with it freedom from petty rivalries and the need to prove oneself in pointless debate.
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inactive dotec carbokev
yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I actually agree with you. Thanks. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Lol, I find that all this academic theory, when it is no longer relevant towards improving technique, to be pretty useless. I don't think the OP really needed so much discussion about convex/concave loops, etc....
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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reflecx
Super Member Joined: 01/12/2011 Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Take a look at Ma Long's BH loop and see how much he brings back his wrist. I've tried doing it myself, even if I intentionally cock my wrist back, I can't do it to the degree that he does. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Here is my personal fave: Timo Boll (though there are players who use the wrist more extensively, I don't know anyone else whose forehand is as extremely wrist oriented, to the point that the rest of the body just looks like an add-on): Edited by NextLevel - 09/05/2013 at 5:24pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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As much as NextLevel has been equivocating and backpedaling in the thread, there's still a significant difference between the mutually exclusive positions that a larger quantity overwhelms a much smaller one, and the viewpoint which doesn't discriminate based on size. There's a certain art to mocking those who choose to be willfully ignorant of obvious facts. While it's understandable that not everyone appreciates this, that can be said of any form of artistry. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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That's bit of an illusion predicated on how loose his wrist is and how fast his forearm is accelerating. As he's bringing the hand backwards for backstroke, his body is already whipping the arm forward which makes for a point where the angle seems larger than natural. He's not somehow super-muscling his wrist back. If you want an example of someone who does use an extreme lock (which takes certain amount of prep), watch Wang Hao on over the table BH. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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reflecx
Super Member Joined: 01/12/2011 Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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My point is that he has to intentionally cock his wrist this far back using his muscles. It is not simply a loose wrist + unconscious wrist snap whip effect. |
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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The wrist thing is silly. It's really really easy. Good players, wait for it....... have control over how much they use their wrist. They aren't wrist jerking every shot, and they aren't stiff arming every shot. They are deciding when to do what based on that amazing thing that not a lot of people have the concept of........... shot selection. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Great insight, beeray... unfortunately, it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which to some degree argues over whether you can get disproportionate bang for your buck by developing wrist strength/flexibility and using wrists more actively in your game.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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