|
|
Would this theory work in TT? |
Post Reply | Page 123 5> |
Author | ||||
jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 11/12/2013 at 2:00pm |
|||
Agree with fatt - I am finding a lot similarities between the various sports. I find it helpful to incorporate various techniques from one sport to the other - but that's just me. Others, complain one sport ruins their other sport - there are tennis players who refuse to play tt for the fear of ruining their tennis stroke and vice versa.
|
||||
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
||||
Sponsored Links | ||||
stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Online Points: 1022 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
the only comparisons with tennis that popup are the tt step in on a fh/bh push with the right foot (right handed player) v. the same step in in fh/bh slice stroke in tennis; also the hips rotation and weight transfer from the right to left foot for a fh drive but that equally applies to a golf swing or a baseball hit. borrowing from other sports may be useful to get a different perspective in order to understand our sport's mechanics but direct applications can be dangerously misleading.
|
||||
wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Maybe I'm being too nitpicky on semantics, but I think few tennis skills translate to TT. Some of the concepts translate, but the actual skills - how to move, stroke mechanics, etc. - don't really translate at all. |
||||
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Correct timing is part of enhanced technique, but it's all semantics. Yes, tennis strokes for TT, especially the backhand, and tennis movement are awful because of their size, but there are still tennis skills that translate to TT and vice versa, especially ball control and spin manipulation.
|
||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
||||
tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Because jrscatman seemed to be looking for a physics answer in his second post. |
||||
V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
And if you give a mouse a cookie, chances are, he's going to want some milk to go with it.
|
||||
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
||||
jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Next time you play TT - try delaying one of your forehands and see if it has any effects. I play both Tennis & TT - I find the sports are complementary - some things from TT help my Tennis and some things from Tennis help my TT. I play both sports at a recreational level - if you're an Olympic level or National level player - perhaps you might not want to mix sports. Actually, I also play Badminton - which is how all this got started. Another important lesson in this thread is when an accomplished, international level coach says something - chances are very good he/she might know what he/she is saying - maybe our knowledge or understanding of physics might not be able explain it but that doesn't mean it's not true.
|
||||
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
||||
V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Actually he is doing that. As far as his actual ability to generate racket head speed he is doing everything right. Look closely and you can see his weight shift forward and a smooth coordination of his joints in sequence from his legs to the wrist snap. He is not doing the entire thing either because he's older and probably 30lbs overweight but he knows how to do it. The arm swing is much tighter and smaller mainly because the mass of a badminton racket is considerably less that a tennis racket. Especially pro rackets that have lead weights added to them. A badminton racket weighs about the same as TT paddle, 80g to 95g unstrung. A pro tennis racket will start at around 320g on the low end and go to around 350g on the high end. Not only that the weight is mainly added to the head changing the CG distribution. So all though the stroke mechanics are nearly the same they are necessarily going to look a little different. Same reason you don't use a Tennis stroke in TT. Just because he is using inaccurate terms or doesn't know the correct way to explain what he is doing in terms of physics does not mean he isn't doing it right. This happens allot actually, especially in situations involving biomechanics in sports. Edit
Edited by V-Griper - 11/11/2013 at 3:17pm |
||||
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
||||
Spin83
Member Joined: 01/28/2013 Status: Offline Points: 95 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
For me its footwork and good technique that gives you better stroke not enhanced timing. But then again enhanced timing comes from good footwork yes?
Again pause in shot wont give you any advantage, make you better player, make your shots better if you dont use correct technique ment for table tennis strokes and this badmi and tennis videos and all this stuff is pure bs. Never heard a player who plays tennis trying to implement some stuff from tt. Did you? But i see some players who play tennis and use tennis strokes in tt..its awful trust me. |
||||
wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
You don't need to. You seem to be hung up on making this a physics discussion - which wasn't what the badminton coach was discussing. He was demonstrating a stroke technique that results in a player making a more powerful shot. He wasn't trying to explain "why." He was showing, "how." The first definition from the Merriam Webster online dictionary for "power." a (1) : ability to act or produce an effect (2) : ability to get extra-base hits (3) : capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/power This is not the definition you keep using. We don't get there until definition 6c. |
||||
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
That is obvious but does the pause enable you to get a better stroke, possibly because of enhanced timing? Or are those of us who can't explain why a pause might enable you to get a better stroke going to gloat about the fact that we understand Physics because we cannot gloat about our badminton expertise? Edited by NextLevel - 11/11/2013 at 2:38pm |
||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
||||
Spin83
Member Joined: 01/28/2013 Status: Offline Points: 95 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Imo ''pause'' in stroke is nothing but short delay you take to correctly execute the stroke depending on the situation. That delay doesn't give you power, power comes from good stroke.
|
||||
tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Jay, do you believe the pause generates more power?
On this one issue would be right. The coach should put his body into it like a tennis player does when serving if he wants more power. Adding the arm swing to the body moving forward would result in a faster racquet speed.
The stop is not the reason for extra power. It is the speed of the racquet. Hinting or suggesting otherwise is not helping. I have said above having the time to stop will generally result in a better result. It just won't generate power. Why do I have to keep repeating the same thing over and over? I don't see how anybody can ignore the speed after impact formula. It is a combination of the conservation of momentum and the COR formulas. It isn't hard to understand. If anybody can refute the speed after impact formula I will listen.
It is a misleading demonstration. It led jrscatman astray and has resulted in this long thread that is a waste of time after my first post. If you want to advance the science of TT then experiments should be done like finding the speed of Nadal's racquet. That video is good. Does the path of the paddle surprise anybody? It sure looks a lot different from some of the guesses I see above. The stroke path is useful because now one can see where in the stroke Nadal's racquet is moving the fastest. The same can be done for TT. "Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see". John Lennon |
||||
wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
And why should he? He's teaching badminton.
No. Get out a dictionary. His usage is perfectly correct given the context.
Good thing you aren't teaching badminton.
I strongly suspect that the form he shows has plenty to do with generating more racquet head speed and a more powerful shot. The stop, per se, may not be "the" reason, but it certainly may be part of a very good process for increasing the power of your badminton shot. Keep in mind that the main teaching method that he employed was not verbal instruction. It was physical demonstration. Edited by wturber - 11/11/2013 at 11:07am |
||||
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
||||
APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Sorry been away for weekend playing TT, so I didn't get a chance to finish. In the clips shown above, the players are Drilling, any pause in the context of their stroke production is within the tempo of the drill and part of their technique. In open Match play, on the third ball or in open play, a pause before execution is primarily to delay directional intentions, at a level where the opponent is extremely good at reading them, to produce a fatal blow. This is where a player cashes in on the time he has bought himself with his preceding shot if he gets a weaker return. If it is a third ball attack, he has bought time by serving so as to limit the response, so he can reasonably pre-determine the return, or the use of deceit to produce a mistake, or quite often both.
|
||||
The Older I get, The better I was.
|
||||
jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Thanks NextLevel - I'll go back review his comments - I have a one track mind - so I was focused whether racquet pausing would work or not. Now, that's out of the way - I can try learn about the other things people mentioned in this thread. fatt: I like the bouncing with the ball idea as well. Good way to stay in sync with the ball.
|
||||
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
||||
stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Online Points: 1022 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
To answer your question about timing the ball I use my favorite quote in tt: "bounce with the ball"; I like it because it contains so much information in a funny and so short quote; it's about rhythm (tempo) and dancing (fluidity). It is rare to stumble on such a short piece of learning/teaching material from which we can go on and on to so many directions. I actually found it here and at the club at the very same time: It is about crouching as the ball descends on our side after clearing the net and pushing on the legs as it rises from the bounce; timely work from the legs! "bounce with the ball" also allows to underline the importance of playing the other person, not the ball; I encourage people to be aware of the body motion on the other side of the table because from there the knowledge of the incoming ball's trajectory is a side effect and that gives an advantage; having a virtual curtain on the end line on the other side and watching the ball coming out of it is a big loss of information; as I heard here in another context "it takes 2 to tango" . |
||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Jrscatman,
In terms of TT applicability, the best player commenting (APW46) gave you a lot to chew on. Spin is a more important component of table tennis than the other racquet sports so any physics in TT should really be more vector oriented than scalar oriented. |
||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
||||
jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Found this video of Nadal's racquet speed. It shows clearly how he goes from very slow to very fast - basically accelerating the racquet head to contact. So I think that's what I'm getting from this thread. It's all about accelerating the racquet.
Thanks to everyone for contributing. |
||||
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
||||
jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
tt4me - so in the link you posted there are 2 speeds you need: speed before the impact and speed after the impact. Please explain how you calculate the speed of the racquet before impact? As V-Griper pointed out the pause is used to build Potential Energy - which is then converted to Kinetic Energy - that produces the velocity. This velocity is being used in your equation.
|
||||
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
||||
V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
That's good
|
||||
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
||||
jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Welcome back V-Griper - as usual it will take me a while to study your post! |
||||
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
||||
V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
How do you teach your students to time the ball? I have found that to be extremely critical to a players stroke development. Just trying compare notes.
|
||||
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
||||
stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Online Points: 1022 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
you remind me that trick I use when I coach; I want the person to contact the ball at the highest point of its trajectory after it bounces on his/her side and the result is often too late; then I ask "can you hit the ball when it is still rising from the table?" and (s)he will be also a bit late...and hit it at the top...
the coach above may use that kind of trick, knowing that the result will not be a complete stop, just a transitional move as you precise. |
||||
V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
You guys are still going at it?!! I should have known better than to think a thread like this would die a natural death.
But since I haven't found a life yet since my last post. " Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more"- I watched the coaches vid again and studied it carefully. At one point he uses the phrase "absolutely stop". Now to me that is not ambiguous at all. That would mean cessation of all movement. But when I look at his actions when he demonstrates, I perceive tip of the racket to be sliding backward along with his arm until he snaps it back to cycle his smash. Again this, to me, is a change in direction of his motion not a "complete stop" no matter how brief it may seem to be. So to my perception he is not even doing what he says to do. This, of course, is not intentional deceit just a "figure of speech" or language used to get an idea across in a none technical context. No doubt he is an excellent badminton coach an an all around nice person so I am not casting aspersions. He is attempting to help players improve at the sport. Thinking the smash in that way might help some players improve. But that doesn't mean What he thinks is happening is happening and it also does not mean that it is an accurate description of what is occurring. Power is a very easy concept to understand and does not require pages of equations to comprehend it. No need to condescend. Had it been explained it would have been instantly clear why the term was used incorrectly. But those who did not know why it was an issue should have just looked it up. Power is just work done in a given time frame. Work is some type of movement. The more work done in a given time frame the more power is generated. So if the coach comes to a complete stop there is no power until he starts moving again. If he completes his entire stroke in under, say, 1 millisecond that would be a butt load of power. If he took two minutes hardly a trickle. The confusion is with the potential to do work or potential energy which is stored in the muscles and is built up as they contract but no outward movement has taken place. So what the coach actually means is the more you can flex you muscles without moving the more potential energy you can generate. Of course there is a pretty direct relationship between potential energy and power and that's why most people just say power. I have no Issue with that and in most cases it is fine just to say power. However in this case It could be misleading. Now my comments where directed at the efficiency of the stroke. Completely stopping and stating each time wastes allot of energy because stopping something from moving requires as much energy starting to move it in the first place. So that's where my comment about why you see loopy strokes in tennis. In badminton and in TT the masses are allot less so you can see motions that appear to be straighter and can also be perceived as stopping. So here is another explanation of how to execute the BM smash that is much more cogent and relevant in terms of principles you can apply to TT. FYI Peter Rsmussen is the Waldner/Schlager of the badminton world along with Peter Gade. You see me now a veteran of a thousand psychic wars
Edited by V-Griper - 11/10/2013 at 2:36am |
||||
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
||||
tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I have posted this link many times before. Look half way down and you will see the formula for the speed after impact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution There is no pause time in this equation. The speed after impact only depends on the masses, impact speeds, and the coefficient of restitution. This is a key equation for impacts. The coach may be a very good badminton player but he is getting his speed after impact with his fast swing, not the pause. What he thinks is happening and what is really happening are two different things. This is kind of like what went on in the dwell time thread. What people think they felt and what was caught on a high speed video were two different things. I/we run into this all the time. |
||||
jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Ok, tt4me - how about this. If you agree this coach is a high level player - he can certainly tell the difference between different shots regarding their speed or power right? How would explain what he is noticing. You've already said he wrong about his explanation - what is your explanation has how he generating different power on the shots using his technique?
|
||||
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
||||
stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Online Points: 1022 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
The vultures are circling
|
||||
jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4949 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Time for a reality check or a timeout.
|
||||
Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Words like power were used long before they were used in scientific contexts. Most of us came here to enjoy and.improve our table tennis, not get insulted by physics experts who know little about how to get better at table tennis.
TT4me, whether in his current incarnation or as pnatchwey, has continued to spread his claims about physics at the cost of not caring whether his claims have empirical value for table tennis improvement. He also has no awareness of the bounds of civility he continually transgresses. Enough is enough. |
||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
||||
Post Reply | Page 123 5> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer
MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd. |