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Use FAST equipment to improve |
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smackman 
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Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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 Posted: 12/01/2013 at 11:37pm |
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fast or slow
many will never know is it better to trial and test maybe good coaching is best when the op has long gone this subject is causing a song we try to copy our favorite pro's but it's better to watch our local hero's the subject has long been forgotten lets stay on track and stop being rotten fast or slow many will never know..
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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the_theologian
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Joined: 01/11/2009 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 3895 |
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Posted: 12/01/2013 at 11:57pm |
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bravo, bravo
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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APW46
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Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 3:55am |
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They hit with the same power physically, but the result is less devastating, 38mm ball had a higher spin/speed ratio, especially when powered by VOC based speed glue. Factory tuning/boosting gives about 60 to 80 percent of the true VOC effect, but the 40mm ball, which bounces with a steeper trajectory than the 38mm has allowed players to play with faster blades to make up for the loss of pace, without losing a critical amount of control. The 40mm ball sits up more, but also slows down more rapidly through the air, which is why we have more counter driving rallies, and a trend towards more athletitism, rather than table craft. I know lots of players who have played through both eras, and I have yet to talk to one who thinks that anything modern matches a guided missile coming from a VOC glued set up. If you don't believe me, get down to your local tyre bay and ask for a tin of Tip Top, apply two layers on each side and have a swing, you will find that you can achieve incredible power, with a slower arm. You can't ever use it in competition though, players like myself would spot ( and hear) you a mile away.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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frogger
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 8:52am |
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You will never know the power of the force young Luke unless you play Sriver Max speed glued to Power Drive or Gergely Carbon.
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Wood Paddle
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NextLevel
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Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 10:19am |
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Maybe we should all use speed glued equipment to practice and improve...
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 10:28am |
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My favorite was Bryce FX, with enough glue to set off smoke alarms a block away. It didn't matter what blade you used.
One last thing before leaving this particular subject since it was aired. Assiduous made a physical threat that got him banned, but he had been warned via PM about some other things he had written that cannot be allowed on this forum, all it seemed in a short period of time after a long stretch of forcefully styled but generally acceptable posting. If he had not snapped at Next Level, he was going to snap at someone else. It was I think a matter of time. I hope he comes back in a better mood. |
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Matt Pimple
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Joined: 12/03/2012 Location: Phoenix Status: Offline Points: 1995 |
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 11:05am |
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Very nice!
 By the way, I discussed this subject yesterday with Dan Seemiller (as I was attending his camp) and he did not think it was a good idea for a developing or intermediate player to use very fast equipment. Interestingly, he himself uses a BTY Grubba All+ blade (same blade since 30 years).
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APW46
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 11:21am |
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That's about right
 Towards the end I was using Dawie inspirit with two layers of speed glue and got more out of it than anything you can do now. The main difference is the huge gear up from touch to power, you really needed the touch with the 38mm ball, modern boosted rubbers are just fast. |
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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geardaddy
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Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 11:24am |
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Shhhhhhhhhhh! You're letting out the secret.
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tabletennis11
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 11:50am |
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Fast equipment is not necessarily the key to creating a better player. If anything you want developing players to have more control. There are plenty of exercises and drills which can be used to increase reaction time, I don't think faster equipment is the best way to do that.
More touch and control is better when learning and young, once more mature then build power into game and perhaps upgrade to faster equipment.
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puppy412
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Joined: 03/25/2013 Location: houston Status: Offline Points: 686 |
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 11:57am |
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saying "don't use too fast equipment, use something slow, with a lot of control" is like saying "don't use a bugatti, use a beetle, you'll have fewer accidents and the ride will last longer" http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Bugatti_veyron_in_Tokyo.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/VolkswagenBeetle-001.jpg you could say I was riding a beetle until one day I bought a bugatti and been riding that ever since. or to say it the way it's supposed to be said "I woke up with a new amultart..."  Edited by puppy412 - 12/02/2013 at 11:58am |
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Baal
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 12:22pm |
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So much is in the details. What did you mean by "very fast equipment"? What did Dan think you meant? A TBS? A Schlager Carbon? A Korbel? What levels do you think comprise beginning and intermediate? 1000? 1600? 2200? I have had the same conversation with high-level coaches here (Huijing Wang, Viktor Subonj) who do not think that reasonable modern equipment -- along the lines of TBS, Viscaria, or Innerforce ALC, to name three ~OFF Butterfly blades -- are too fast for the young players they coach at the moment (their students are in the 1600-2200 range currently). These are players who use somewhat faster equipment themselves. The answer to these questions would partly depend on the characteristics of the player, what are their strengths, weaknesses, age, footwork, level of play. No one size fits all. |
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frogger
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 1:54pm |
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I had forgotten Dan Seemiller was still using a BTY A. Grubba ALL+ blade. He could kick most of our butts here so it's a fine example that more modest performing equipment can still be very powerful in the right hands. I'm seriously considering giving up fast setups forever since my body is going in the opposite direction.
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Wood Paddle
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NextLevel
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 2:21pm |
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Dan does a tremendous amount of short blocking and is a combination player so I don't think his game should be the template for answering the original question in the context of the modern, offensive looping game.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jt99sf
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Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4951 |
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 2:26pm |
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He uses the Anti for 'change of direction' so the Grubba makes sense for DS. Not all of us use anti or play like a windshield wiper.
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 Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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smackman
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Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 3:03pm |
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I think most in here have this dream World fixation that everyone is playing like Ma Long it is generaly hard trying to find the best gear that suits, so if you do find it stay with it as long as possible
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 3:42pm |
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I think the default assumption is that the OP is trying to play the modern offensive looping game, even if looping is not a huge part of his game. Most intermediate club/social players believe that they are playing something like this game, and those who are not usually describe their game in detail because they know they have specialized needs. The OP also made other posts in this thread that point in this direction, so this is not just single mindedness on my part.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Matt Pimple
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Joined: 12/03/2012 Location: Phoenix Status: Offline Points: 1995 |
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 4:29pm |
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jt99sf
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 4:41pm |
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I guess it depends on who he's playing and when. Now or 30 years ago ? the wiper style was not meant to be a cut, it's a style that worked for other players as well. I used to use Anti for drop shots and re-direct blocks, it was effective at the time.
Edited by jt99sf - 12/02/2013 at 4:45pm |
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH) 林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 4:47pm |
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What jtsf99 said
 .
More seriously, everyone who loops usually loops when possible - I am just saying that Dan's game is a short, close to the table game more than anything else. There is nothing wrong with that, but if you compare how Dan usually plays against 2300+ opposition to most two winged loopers, you will see that there are distinct differences outside the usual short game ( "tablecraft") maneuvers. Edited by NextLevel - 12/02/2013 at 4:57pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jt99sf
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 5:00pm |
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when DS was in his prime, I'm sure even a 2300 looper will have trouble looping his anti blocks. @NL, I'll be in Vegas from Dec 17- thru the 21. Hope to hit a few with you.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH) 林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 5:18pm |
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Sure. The pleasure would be mine. And just to let PPP know, I never told jt99sf that I was going to Vegas and I have never met him before. In fact, we even had a mild tiff when I tried to sell some blades and withdrew the sale because I was confused about how to go about putting pictures online, didn't want to sell for too low a price etc. And he has never threatened me once with any bodily harm. Thank God for that.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jt99sf
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 5:23pm |
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I only like to kickass on the table and I leave everything on the table. First round is on me. actually you did in a previous post.
 Edited by jt99sf - 12/02/2013 at 5:24pm |
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH) 林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 5:27pm |
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Oh, well. So I am only 50% right on a good day. But I was right about never meeting you before (I hope)... And beware - all the pips players I faced at the NA Teams are all complaining about the backhand drives that had them picking up the ball repeatedly...
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jt99sf
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 5:45pm |
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you mean you keep missing the table ?? I'll move the barriers closer to me.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH) 林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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APW46
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 6:08pm |
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How he plays has nothing to do with whether his advice is valid, and IMO ex world class players are always worth listening to.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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NextLevel
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 6:28pm |
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APW46,
I didn't dispute the advice. I disputed his game being used as an example that supports it. In general, DDreamer has me wanting to test a few things... |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 7:00pm |
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Yep, when people of that level tell me things when they have seen me play, I follow their advice as best as I possibly can. I ask questions, get clarification, etc. I made a major major change in my play on the advice of a former top US player. No regrets even if it took the better part of a year to make the change. In this case it's important that the advice is transmitted in such a way that we have a detailed idea of what he thinks. A one-liner like "very fast equipment" is bad for "developing or intermediate players" leaves me very much wanting to know exactly what equipment Dan thinks is very fast, and what he means by developing or intermediate players (age, level, style of play). Our OP is playing with a TBS and wants to switch to a Schlager Carbon. I have seen a lot of players in the 1900-2250 in my city try something like that, and almost always they decide for themselves that it is a bad idea. People live and learn. I think the advice in this case is designed for people contemplating something like that. The TBS itself, though, may or may not be too fast for someone. And it would be crazy to say that we should all be using Grubba blades. Note too that playing with a blade that is too slow can cause problems of its own.
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pingpongpaddy
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 7:50pm |
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If you are an amateur, with no particular ambition, it really doesn't matter. And those juniors in the national coaching systems are almost all using equally fast stuff, so they are on a level playing field in the competitions that matter for them. When they play against adults in the leagues they are going to come unstuck a few times.
I think an ambitious late developer adult is the one who will experience the most problems but at least it keeps the tt economy moving. |
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inactive dotec carbokev
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Baal
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Posted: 12/02/2013 at 7:54pm |
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PPP
"True dat" as they say here along the Gulf Coast. |
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smackman wrote: