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Poll: 40+ Seamed vs Seamless PB vs Celluloid Balls |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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Posted: 05/21/2015 at 8:10pm |
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The best seamed ball I have played with (so far) was Butterfly ***. You can spin it as good as the celluloid, speed is just a tad less than celluloid, quite round etc. However, it costs 3 dollars a pop and it breaks almost as fast as DHS/Joola/SHA and their ilk.
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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If you are power hitter or counter smasher, the seamless XSF balls are the best by a country mile. All other plastic balls bounce lower than even celluloid when loaded with topspin, that's why loopers love them (lower bounces strongly favor attackers who loop first).
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Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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NP40+ is rounder and somewhat higher bounce compared to Chinese seamed balls that have been our there for the last year. NP40+ still bounces lower than seamless, but everything does including celluloid. All of the 40+ balls are slower and less spinny than celluloid. The three issues most people have complained about regarding NP40+ are price and availability, and some people have worried about durability, but I think they are adequate in that regard. I think they are really good balls, only you can't get them. |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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I agree it is consistent and durable, I just don't think it is a good ball. It is still noticeably slower and less spinnier than celluloid, as well as plastic seamless balls. Its only difference from crappy balls like SHA or Joola is in better consistency and durability, but that's all it can boast about. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I've carefully measured the bounce of XSF 40+ balls and they are right at the maximum allowed by the ITTF. So I'd have to think that your perception of a low bounce is coming from some other attribute of the ball (slower?). |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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+1 Exactamundo! Well maybe except that I prefer the greater bounce of the seamless and I consider the NP40+ price to be ridiculous and not something I'd pay ongoing.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Benfb, a few comments. Nittaku SHA is made by DHS. Reports of durability problems on these balls are abundant. BUT, it is very possible that they are getting better recently, so maybe that is why yours didn't break.
I have weighed these balls carefully using a very sensitive and calibrated balance. DHS and Joola balls (also made by DHS) that were manufactured last June weighed between 2.79-2.83 g. XSF from April 2014 are between 2.73 and 2.75 g. There was almost no overlap in readings. Also, Nittaku Premium 40+ are the lightest of all, less than 2.70 g (which makes them a bit lighter than even a lot of celluloid). There is no question that the DHS balls from last summer are heavier. I have not measured any balls made more recently. The question of course is whether those relatively small differences in weight matter? My personal opinion is actually that weight changes that small are probably less important than the other aspects of the way the ball plays that are based on properties of the material and whether or not there is a seam. Maybe that is what igor was trying to say, but going back and reading again, I don't think so. Finally, these weight differences are going to disappear by January 2016 if ITTF sticks by the standards they say they will impose then (2.75 gram upper limit). |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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ppmax, you are right, and that's exactly my point. Igor is claiming that heavier balls are always better and more durable. That is not true, material and presence of a seam matter more than a few milligrams, especially for durability.
By the way, I like the NP40+ balls too, but I am down to my last two and there still seems to be no place to get more. (NP40+ are also among the lightest balls sold today, not much different from lighter celluloid balls). |
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ppmax
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2007 Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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That statement suggests that you are in no position to suggest anyone to "go back to engineering school and try to become more proficient". The comparison has to be apples to apples. DHS and XSF use different materials and techniques to produce the balls. So, "The DHS balls, which are heavier than XSF balls, have much less durability" doesn't prove anything, other than "those DHS balls are more prone to breakage than those XSF balls".
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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I've taken to practicing exclusively with 40+ balls because it was hurting my brain to go back and forth with celluloid. And while I have made it a point to get a good mix of many different 40+ balls, the largest portion are a mix of DHS seamed and XSF seamless. So at this point, I'm feeling comfortable playing with those two. My first observation is that I haven't heard nearly the breakage that has been reported in the forums. The balls have held up almost as well as celluloid and that includes some heavy play. We did have a XSF ball shatter this week when it hit the edge of a paddle (swinging very hard), but just that once. None of the DHS balls have cracked so far. So for durability, I consider both balls pretty durable. In fact, the most common breakage I've had (and it's still rare) is the Nittaku SHA balls. For playing, the seamless balls play differently than the seamed balls, that's for sure. DHS, Nittaku SHA, and Butterfly all play a lot more in common than with the XSF and Palio (who play similar). People who first try seamless after spending time with seamed 40+ balls are usually uncomfortable, but once they spend some time with the seamless, they really come to like it. Personally, I find the seamless harder to spin (which matches what I was told from a pro). I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out my "favorite" because every tournament seems to use a different ball. I use them all, with an emphasis on whatever i think I'm going to need next. Nittaku Premium 40+ balls may eventually become the most popular ball in USA (if supply can ever catch up with demand), but since they're not used in the ITTF pro tournaments, that means there will always be other (different) balls used in amateur tournaments as well. As for "weight": I haven't weighed any 40+ balls but I suspect they all weigh the same in measured grams. I know that I went to some effort a few years ago to get reliable average weights on the different brands of celluloid balls and with a few exceptions, they all weighed the same. I've been told (again, by a pro) that when balls feel like different weights, it's actually the hardness we feel. Oh, and I suspect ITTF won't make any decisions on the 2016 deadline for reducing ball weight until we get close to that deadline. The reason for allowing heavier balls (actual weight, not how it "feels") was to reduce breakage. If the lighter balls still break too much in 2016, then we can expect the higher weight allowance to be extended.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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You should go back to engineering school and try to become more proficient. The DHS balls, which are heavier than XSF balls, have much less durability. The reports on this have come now from so many people (not just me) that there is simply no doubt about it. Obviously there is more to a ball's durability and playing properties than weight. Materials and structure matter more. In fact, unless things have changed recently -- which is certainly possible -- for a long time the heaviest balls were the DHS ones, and those were by far the least durable, even compared to DF, which are a little lighter.
Also, ITTF has said nothing at all in any public forum that suggests they will change their weight standards for balls that are coming in January 2015. Every time Thomas Kueneth has been asked about it, he has reiterated that point. The more likely thing is that all the ball makers will figure out how to make better balls that comply with these rules. Hans made a comment that suggests they may be close to it now. We will all know soon enough. |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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THE HEFTY BALLS of 2.80 gramme WILL STAY IN PLAY FOREVER.
Given two plastic specimens with different masses, say 2.73 and 2.80 grammes, I would pick up the heavier one without much ado. I am an engineer proficient, I know for a certainity -- the heavier ball will always survive longer, better shock resistance. BETTER SHOCK RESISTANCE. Always. this is the reason ITTF is going to allow those balls of 2.80 grammes on the market onwards, , in response to the many requests from the DHS ball makers. For the natural mechanical limitations of the plastic material, Ball Makers cant vouch of any good quality with a reduced ball mass under 2.80 g. So the heavy ball is a fair necessity. |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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DF 40+ NOVELTY
Double Fish has just came out with a newly developed plastic, article #143 in the ITTF BALL'S ROLL. better durability/bounce I guess. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Great news |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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This sounds great. Give us a regular play durability update. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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ahsq
Silver Member Joined: 04/07/2015 Location: The flushing Y Status: Offline Points: 527 |
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+2.
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FS:
Xiom Vega Pro ST 85 grams $80 shipped Donic Waldner Senso Carbo JO shaped ST $40 shipped |
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ahsq
Silver Member Joined: 04/07/2015 Location: The flushing Y Status: Offline Points: 527 |
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Fact: the DHS 40+ *** seamed ball expanded permanently after I tried water boil the dent.
Fact: It is now a 42+ ball. The celluloid balls have no trouble with the water boil method. These plastics cant stand boiling water so dont do it.
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FS:
Xiom Vega Pro ST 85 grams $80 shipped Donic Waldner Senso Carbo JO shaped ST $40 shipped |
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Hans Regenkurt
Silver Member Joined: 08/12/2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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I played with Joola 40+ yesterday and it was great. The production date is this April = one month ago.
I could instantly play with it and almost felt no difference. Unfortunately it is noticeably slower and carries less spin but it is enjoyable. It is superior now to any seamless ball I have ever come accross. They still break very easily on edges, however. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Logician, I think you have hit on part of it. The seamless balls are actually lighter than Chinese seamed 40+ balls (at least the seamed balls made about last summer). All of the DHS-made balls at that point were around 2.80g whereas the seamless are around 2.73-2.75. However, by January 1, 2016, all ITTF approved balls will have to be less than 2.75. I haven't checked recently, but it is possible that more recently made seamed ones are approaching this now). Nittaku Premium 40+ are lightest of all, at around 2.67. When you are playing with a ball, it is hard to feel weight. Sometimes a softer or deader ball feels heavier, (like trying to kick a football that is not fully inflated). It is quite likely that the best Chinese seamed ball you can buy at the moment is Butterfly 40+*. They still have a ways to go. Major issues persist with roundness and durability (and I still think the bounce should be a little bit higher), and as for prices, seamless is still the way to go. * the reason I say they are likely to be the best is they are very recently made. Last ones I tried were made in March of this year based on date stamp on the box. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I don't question that for some reason or other you may not have liked XSF40+, but the idea that their bounce is too low compared to a seamed Chinese 40+ (!!) is simply and demonstrably incorrect. Seamless balls actually bounce slightly higher than even celluloid in any test you can devise. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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+1.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Vladovich
Gold Member Joined: 05/29/2008 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 1720 |
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Is there any possibility that they will standardize plastic balls so that everybody play with the same ball. Current situation looks like the wild west...
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Tibhar Defense Plus
FH: Joola Phenix BH: Dr. Neubauer Bison 1.5mm "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be…unnatural." |
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Ciprian
Gold Member Joined: 06/27/2008 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 1020 |
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I've played with XSF 40+ balls and didn't like them.( No feeling ,lighter ,low bounce). Lately I've been playing with Stiga 40+ and Yasaka 40+ balls and I really like them. I think the quality of these new balls has improved . Many players ,from where I play, didn't notice much difference .
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Xi Enting
FH-Aurus Sound BH- Pryde 30 |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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That means they aren't paying for the balls - the price and durability factor has not changed the main evaluations for people paying for the balls or tracking breakage rates. As for the way they play, seamed balls with the way they react to spin give an outsize advantage to first attack loopers, while the higher bounce of seamless balls allows hitters to level the playing the field.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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alphapong
Silver Member Joined: 05/11/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 622 |
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When we first evaluated plastic balls a number of months ago, it seemed nearly universal that players preferred the seamless balls over seamed Chinese balls. This has changed a lot in the last couple months. Now many, possibly the majority, prefer the seamed balls over the seamless. I still prefer celluloid myself.
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LOG1C1AN
Super Member Joined: 04/22/2013 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 303 |
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I think that the higher bounce is also why some think it feels lighter even though it's not. |
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Baal
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I think it's because it bounces a little higher that it seems slower. |
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hidasjoki
Super Member Joined: 03/30/2012 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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Everyone at my club complained about the weight of the seamless poly ball, happened to be the Nexy brand. I thought the balls played great close to the table but everyone thought they weren't heavy enough. I did notice it when hitting lobs....
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<3
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AcudaDave
Gold Member Joined: 11/02/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1859 |
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I've only played a couple of times with the XSF seamless ball compared to several hours with the Butterfly and Joola seamed plastic ball so can only say that it seems like the seamless ball was slightly slower/less spin than the butterfly seamed plastic ball. It's really amazing how far I've come with the plastic balls from 6 months to a year ago. Maybe they've just gotten much better now, but I'm actually starting to prefer the plastic balls now. I just don't want to keep switching back and forth between celluloid and plastic balls, especially since I've modified my setup somewhat for the plastic ball.
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Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade
Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
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ppmax
Super Member Joined: 10/10/2007 Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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Nittaku 40+ premium should not be lumped with other seamed balls.
IMO, it's currently the best plastic ball, even given its price. The consistency and the durability (compared to other plastic balls) are simply great.
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