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Technique is not everything if you want to improve |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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Posted: 01/16/2016 at 3:58pm |
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There are lots of threads discussing the finer points of technique and rightly so on a TT forum.
Have a thought though about the relevance of technique and its changing fashion for perfection, and also why there are many players who attain Very high levels of play that show relatively poor technique even right into the top 20 players in the world. Ironically, most threads about technique perfection contain a clip of a top Chinese player showing 'how it should be' yet copying that, is probably the hardest route to take for a amateur player because it has been derived from a player who is at the top of the Chinese pyramid of enormous depth, players who have done little else but have it perfected by top coaches amidst huge competition from other players for a spot at the top In China. Only using him as an example, but would Kreanga with his technique have ever got anywhere near the CNT? If you have limited practice time, limitations in the standard of practice partners, but would like to improve your rating, you are far better using your valuable time covering other aspects of TT than technique. Service/touch/early point strategies and learning How to win are far more beneficial to your game within your level, and seriously, you get far more advantage asking the best player in your club how he got there, than spending hour after hour thinking that if you get a f/hand that resembles WLQ's its actually going to make a significant difference in your results. The best source of information I have come across yet, is the 'Breaking 2000' and the 'next level' series of books, I have two pupils reading them now and they are just beginning to understand TT in a way that is relevant for them, both are showing great results.
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The soul of rock
Silver Member Joined: 03/11/2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 626 |
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It really depends on how people take on table tennis. As for myself, most of the time I don't play to win, I just want to enjoy myself. I would rather score beautiful points and lose games than to win boringly (just my oppinion). In the end, it's just a sport, a game. That's why I prefer to learn how to do the loop effectively and "correctly" than think too much about strategy. I guess I'm still young enough to have the luxury of doing so.
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Hautamaeki
Member Joined: 12/14/2013 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 78 |
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I have to agree, I have lost tons of games against players that seem to do always the same thing, but they are very good doing what they do best, and I have seen them winning games against very good ranked players, today I saw a 2º division game of one of the players I have lost and he always do the same thing...very heavylong under spin to the backhand, the other player cant make top spin, so pushes long, and he top spins to kill the point, he wins some points not int his fashion but I guess 60% are like this...this is an axample he has very bad technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5E4FsJG_oA This one is 3 years old, he is the one in all black shirt He uses a stiga blade and 2 donic sonex jp gold, cant understand how he makes so much spin with thos rubbers.
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JohnnyChop
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2010 Location: Toronto Status: Offline Points: 1159 |
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Agreed! professional techniques needs professional conditioning...
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APW46
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I completely with you. |
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smackman
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Im the opposite, I would rather win anyway possible, than not winning with beautiful Technic I have a mate like that who practiced alone for a n hour a day with services joined coaching squads had one on one coaching ,looked great but just let others walk allover him in games
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The soul of rock
Silver Member Joined: 03/11/2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 626 |
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Good strategies can take you to a certain level, but then it's hard to go further without "proper" technique IMO. I think that strategies can be developed later on, but it's really hard to break a bad habbit after you get use to that. Trainning in the same hall with the Scottish national squad, it's hard for me not to focus on the technique side. It's really amazing to realize how much power and spin the pros can generate, even with crappy equipment.
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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OK lets get into the nitty gritty, Most players at a very basic level can play a push stroke.
There are so many things you can do with a push stroke. Varying depth, direction, spin for example, but so so many players use a push as a spin based spoil tactic, hoping the opponent is let down by his lack of consistency based purely upon the amount of 'dig' or backspin he is facing. This works and completely backs up my argument, yet it is so limited by a player who is consistent at coping with it, His technique quality rises above, he is more polished higher in standard. So to beat him you have to do something else other than keep hacking backspin on the ball, he can cope with that.
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APW46
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Yes, But the Scottish national squad are never going to be world beaters are they?
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The soul of rock
Silver Member Joined: 03/11/2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 626 |
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They may never be, but they show me if I pay more attention to the technique, I can get a much better FH loops. I've played against pros/former pros a few times and sometimes even if I stand in the correct place at the correct moment, I still couldn't block their loops because of the vast amount of spin. Regaring the techniques vs. strategies, I think one of the reasons that juniors develope faster than adults is that they spent more time working on the basic technique. As soon as they know how to play against you, there's no way back.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I agree with APW46 in that what really keeps many adult players from improving is hardly their technique (with caveats below) and far more often their ability to read the ball and the larger play. Technique makes it easier to hit a powerful ball but it will never be a substitute for variation and game reading skills. Kids have eternity to grow into these skills, but adult training should as early as possible be dominated by such training IMO.
That said, I also believe that technique does need to fall within certain standards to support good play. The boundaries once certain essentials are met is pretty wide and I think some people draw the lines too narrowly. But in the end, I guess it depends on how you want to play. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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APW46
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Not forgetting of course, that Juniors become seniors, and seniors were once juniors! I am 52 yrs old and still ranked around 100 in English seniors, That is 35 years of 'no way back' against a new onslaught of juniors every one of those 35 years! Do I have perfect technique? far from it.
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The soul of rock
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But how many of them that you overcome by getting better than them again and how many of them just quit TT completely? Not to disrespect you as I know what's it like to be in English top 100, that's very impressive actually.
I was born and learn TT in the specific area of Asia that's really good with TT and over there we learn the basic techniques first. Adult players with "non standard" techniques can be really good, but their limits in technique make it's impossible for them to improve at some certaint point. The thing is TT technique has been perfected day by day. Few years ago, it's very rare to see the chiquita, now everyone does it after Zhang Jike for example. Strategies to play with it or against it then come after.
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APW46
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Well lets look at the numbers, 300 leagues in England, If every league produces at least 1 really good junior a year for the last 35 years, that means that there has been Around 10000 junior local number 1's since I became a senior. I didn't 'get better than them again' 95% never made my level in the first place. Here is the crux, I didn't achieve my top level until my 30's, I had reasonable technique as a junior, but improved massively in later life without improving my technique. Worked on other things.
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The soul of rock
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Because they're juniors, they may have focus on the other things as well as going to college. And I don't think that England can produce that many good juniors, honestly. I played against Kenny Lindsay, currently UK no.20, once, and I think he's not even as good as the U18 champion in my home town.
Back to the original topic, do you think that you would be much better if you focused more on techniques when you just started?
Edited by The soul of rock - 01/16/2016 at 6:22pm |
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7220 |
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That is why most players outside china will never reach the level of club players in china and I am talking about non pro players here. Learning the basics and doing it over and over again is very boring but that is the very reason why they play good and are a class above everyone else. I have a bunch of friends who are members of the national team who have spent months in china and it has always been the emphasis on the right basics that are taught to them. yEs a lot of us have bad habits, have bad techniques and to get around those bad techniques we improve on our gameplay but it is never and I mean never be a justification not to improve on the basics. Some good players may have upsets with a player with a bad technique but then the really good ones with good techniques are the ones who always win, don't they?
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Ringer84
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In my opinion, improved technique leads to the potential for more creative play. Many adult players are capped both in their ability to produce topspin and their ability to play the ball to all points on the table due to technical deficiences. For example, I have never been able to play a strong backhand down-the-line without having my right foot well in front of my left. I just didn't understand how it was possible to play backhands down the line out of a forehand dominant stance. It wasn't until I learned to get my elbow out farther from my body laterally that I learned how to do this.
Now that I am able to play backhand loops and blocks down the line through improved technique, a much wider array of tactics and patterns are available to me. Edited by Ringer84 - 01/16/2016 at 6:44pm |
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The soul of rock
Silver Member Joined: 03/11/2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 626 |
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Cannot put it better, yogi_bear
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yogi_bear
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I think we also need to distinguish between gameplay and technique also because some people are mixing the 2 things. Techniques are the strokes, timings, footwork and contact on the ball while gameplay involves gameplay tactics like sequencing and chaining of movements, strokes basically responses to an opponent's ball.
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NextLevel
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Kreanga, who was cited by APW46, does have world class technique. I think we need to be clearer on what both APW46 and his opponents are really saying.
I think that once technique falls within certain parameters (the forehand of Crisan or Keinath or the backhand of Appolonia or Aruna would be another extreme), other things often come into play that determine how good a player gets. It's weird that people are confusing the results of a system with the process by which it gets those results. The Chinese are able to throw resources at Table Tennis that no one can. Anyone who thinks their advantage is largely technical is missing a lot of details. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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zeio
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That is the core issue. Everyone wants WLQ's forehand, but did you know it has a name? And that there is a full-blown research paper on the bio-mechanics behind its invention? Many can't even make out the details of the technical aspect of it. And they expect to mimic that by studying some footage?
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vanjr
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Working on technique is all about removing technical disadvantages. |
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pgpg
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Yup. Bulk of posters here would be happy to break USATT 2000 (or slightly above that - let's face it, even 2300 does not get you far these days). And you can only get that far by focusing on polishing your FH form - in the end you don't get style points in TT. Game tactics, shot selection, serve/receive - all go long way to improving your win/loss record, even with imperfect strokes.
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benfb
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I was looking at various posts thinking "I agree with this one" and then "I agree with that one" and then I realized I was pretty much agreeing with everything that Soul of Rock posted. 1) I'd rather play well, using good technique, and enjoy making wonderful shots than just focus on what it takes to win. 2) For any given level of technical skill, you can improve your game success by working on the game play such as tactics and strategy. Ultimately, however, you're going to hit a ceiling until you improve your technical skills. The only way to prevent those ceilings is to make technique a central part of your game from the beginning and at every stage. 3) You don't specifically have to play like Wang Liqin to say you're working to improve your technique. When you see what the 2600+ level players can do, you realize that incorporating better technique can just add to your power, your consistency, and your range of options.
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pgpg
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To each their own. I can't see myself playing, so having perfect form does not matter much to me.
Also, when I see 2600+ players, I know damn well that I'll never get to that level. Fact of life, but it does not stop me from enjoying TT.
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V-Griper
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This I would be interested in. Is it publicly available? |
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heplayslikearobot
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I think technique is important. Great technique is important in reaching a high level, as any significant flaw in your technique can be exposed. With that being said, I think technique is just one of the many things that make up the game. Just because you copy Ma Long's forehand loop, doesn't mean you will have a CNT-standard forehand. There are so many factors within this sport. I have to agree that strategy is extremely important. If you just senselessly loop every ball without much thought, you will very soon be beaten by someone who has a decent block. The average rally only lasts about 3 shots. A good serve followed up with a good tactic can not only get you points based on their mistakes, but you can get very easy third balls to attack. Having a good receiving game will allow you to take advantage of the spin they put on the balls and also being able to limit their attacks. A good strategy exposes the weakness of your opponent and makes you play to your strength. With a great strategy and decent technique, it is not impossible to beat people who would be considered better than you in terms of technique. A good example in my opinion is Werner Schlager. Most of his strokes were fairly average compared to other international players, but he had fantastic serves which gave him a lot of points and also easy 3rd balls. He always used great strategies and thought about every shot. This led him to success in the 2003 WTTC, even though his technique may not been as great as the people he played like Kong Linghui and Wang Liqin. They were arguably among the best in the CNT at the time. In general, I think to play at a high level, you need to understand that there is not just one key. Not just technique, not just strategy... You need to be at a good level in all of these things to truly be a good player.
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zeio
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Sadly, it is not, and it is in Chinese.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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bbkon
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I dont get it. Do you mean wlq forehand is like a new invention difrent from klh?can you explain how is diffrent? |
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APW46
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Yes technique first. I've played against Kenny and also with him as a team mate, and he is a very good player, he is Scottish though, so you can't use him as an example of English juniors. There is no such thing as a 'UK no 20'.
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