[Video] "Trying" to do Drills

Feeding good multi-ball takes a lot of skill.
To me the benefits of multi-ball is so that the coach can simulate many aspects of the game without great physical exertion on his point. He can simulate an opponent that can return EVERYTHING that you give to him and never grows tired or slow.
The coach can instantly increase the pace or slow it down, attack weak spots or simulate a mistake.

But I think that level of multi-ball is used once you hit the expert level (I would say 2300/2400 USATT).
That level of multi-ball is to push the limits of a player who is already at the top of his game and is no longer challenged by a partner who simply blocks..or whose returns are so powerful that the blocker has difficulty placing the return.

I agree with Andy, multi-ball is best used when grooving initial strokes (when you are very inconsistent and the coach needs to focus on your form and not on blocking the ball return) and when you are at an expert level (where the coach might not be able to keep up with you anymore and must use multi-ball to simulate an unbeatable opponent).

Everything else in the middle will be better served with a rallying partner.

man dici....i'm basically in your position from 15-18years ago then. i hope you had good times when on the team. it's a mix of both for me...but mostly good times so far =)

that's why i like the rallies better than multiball. it's more realistic with the ball paths.

APW46 wrote: Multiball is an option to use as part of a coaching program, its not the answer as to why these guys are inconsistent at what they are trying to achieve, in other words, it won't result in them being able to competently complete 10 unbroken circuits of the drill they are using as an aid to their improvement, to be competent players they need to be able to do this, using multiball as an alternative will only mask the problem. IMO, multiball is best used for beginners to develope strokes when they are unable to sustain a rally, and for advanced players squeezing time to improve their stroke recovery, in the middle of that, regular drills are far better time spent, after all Multiball does not exist in reality of TT, where a ball comes back in relation to how it went, in multiball, the feeder takes the delivery outside of reality.

This makes good sense. And I am sure there is only so much you can simulate (can't simulate loops) but but how does this assertion stand up to the chinese coaches feeding the children a series of balls in a pattern that matches gameplay?

e.g.
Wide underspin (that they loop attack) followed by fast topspin to mid (simulating a block). This would be a footwork and technique and tactic drill.

You can still try to play multiball consistently? You dont HAVE to go banzai 110% attacking with multiball. The feedback is not as obvious in the sense that you can miss alot and not "feel" it, but you can still focus on consistency by keeping track of the landed shots.

Sometimes it nice to just get lots of balls coming back no matter what so you can tune yourself back to normal without messing up the other guy's mojo as well and causing a negative cycle of crappiness.

Also, Ive noticed that I use a different stroke in pattern drilling than in games because of the need to slow the shot down. If I were to just let the kinetic chain unfurl as in a game, it would be too fast for the other guy to block it back consistently in some sort of pattern, so I sorta "mistime" the shot, which is surely not something good to practice? Either that or I put all the energy into spinning the ball, which doesnt really make it easier to block, nor is it especially good practice anyway since it feels a bit different.

The pattern drilling is ok for footwork though I think.

Not to start another chinese vs euro war, but I have heard that europeans do the pattern drilling more, while chinese multiball more. Is that true in your experience?

The other thing about multiball is that you can decouple the frequency of the balls from how hard you hit, so you can simulate the opponent standing further away from the table, or something like that. Also, problems caused by the relative skill of both players can also be minimized. Some people are just bad at blocking.





Edited by Vassily - 06/23/2011 at 4:21am

so harsh yet so true

yep you guys are right. i need to tone it down more. i'll go down to 50%. it was about 65% in the vid. 

APW46 wrote: you would do well to come off the pace by 10%,  the reason for the drill you are attempting is to groove your transitional footwork between b/hand and f/hand, its actually far easier to groove yet just as beneficial if you actually play at a pace you can cope with, the footwork required is exactly the same, and you can get into the correct rythmn, its all about building up a fluid tempo, and you guys are not completing anywhere enough circuits of the drill before it breaks down, so start again a little slower, and build you speed up over time.

great insight there apw! my big problem is getting back to the bh....and i really need to put even more control into my shots.

you would do well to come off the pace by 10%,  the reason for the drill you are attempting is to groove your transitional footwork between b/hand and f/hand, its actually far easier to groove yet just as beneficial if you actually play at a pace you can cope with, the footwork required is exactly the same, and you can get into the correct rythmn, its all about building up a fluid tempo, and you guys are not completing anywhere enough circuits of the drill before it breaks down, so start again a little slower, and build you speed up over time.

tpgh2k wrote: Imago wrote: Wow, it's just amazing how good are you in real play, and how bad while doing drills. lol i guess i concentrate more during real gameplay than during drills?

I have a training partner who is the same way. He's in the lower 2000s. In drills, he misses shots, unintentionally varies spin pretty drastically, and can barely hit the same region on the table 4 times in a row. Yet, in games he could land the ball on a dime (not literally, of course, but you get my meaning), and he can respond/react to just about anything you send his way.

My guess is that some people, when under pressure, think less and just "play" (like my training partner). Other people (like me) tend to think even more under pressure and get in their own way by confusing themselves and slowing their reactions.

I am serious. Upsarin + GB + Zhenshen + Honey

Anton Chigurh wrote: cls2222 wrote: Yes, that's completely true, but I didn't want to go that far into explaining it because I was short on time. The reason why I stated that "the brain has learned pretty much everything it can regarding motor skills" is because it is a much, much slower process as one gets older and I wanted to make it clear that changing one's stroke would only detrimentally affect that person's game during the years that they are playing competitively. I also stated "pretty much everything," leaving room for learning. I am planning to write a more in depth article on the mental aspect of TT, using information from psychology and neuroscience to explain "why stuff happens" in the best way I can. Is it OK if I PM you when I write that article? I want to make it clear I do not want to pump false information into people. Fair enough. Sure, you can PM me. But if there is a lot of content I would suggest first sending a quick message to make sure my inbox isn't full. I'd hate to have you type a ton of well thought out info only to lose it all when you hit "send" because my inbox is full.

Thanks a lot. When I saw "Just FYI, all this above is almost entirely false" my pupils dilated

cls2222 wrote: Yes, that's completely true, but I didn't want to go that far into explaining it because I was short on time. The reason why I stated that "the brain has learned pretty much everything it can regarding motor skills" is because it is a much, much slower process as one gets older and I wanted to make it clear that changing one's stroke would only detrimentally affect that person's game during the years that they are playing competitively. I also stated "pretty much everything," leaving room for learning. I am planning to write a more in depth article on the mental aspect of TT, using information from psychology and neuroscience to explain "why stuff happens" in the best way I can. Is it OK if I PM you when I write that article? I want to make it clear I do not want to pump false information into people.

Fair enough.

Sure, you can PM me. But if there is a lot of content I would suggest first sending a quick message to make sure my inbox isn't full. I'd hate to have you type a ton of well thought out info only to lose it all when you hit "send" because my inbox is full.

Anton Chigurh wrote: cls2222 wrote: The scientific reason why learning a new stroke at an older age is so tough is because the brain does not actually learn the stroke. It adapts your current movements to somehow mimic the stroke that you want to produce. For example, after a certain age, some believe it is 25, the brain has learned pretty much everything it can regarding motor skills. After that, your body just adapts the existing movements that are "pre-programmed" in your brain to create the stroke you want to execute. Just FYI, all this above is almost entirely false. Yes, learning things--almost all things, not just motor skills--becomes more difficult with age. This is not because you cannot learn new things and can only "mimic" new things by putting together already known movements. It's because when a person is young his (or her) synapses are still forming. His brain is more plastic; whereas, older people's brains have established many connections and plasticity somewhat decrements. But these connections can change and new ones can form. To suggest that one cannot learn new things but somehow only sews together already known things to "mimic" something is simply false. Also, it is false that we've "learned pretty much everything we can regarding motor skills" by the age of 25. That age is the average age that the brain completes maturation (but of course it varies). Around that time is when the prefrontal cortex fully myelinates, but that has almost nothing to do with motor output. The prefrontal cortex is highly correlated with emotion regulation and other executive functions, but not motor outputs. Although plasticity diminishes with age, there is no reason to think that people cannot learn new things at a "late" age. Granted, highly competitive players in their mid twenties (or even younger) probably shouldn't change major things in their game, such as grip, etc. But even with age-related diminution in neural plasticity, the adult brain still remains fairly plastic. It simply requires a little more effort to acquire new skills. Just for example, I recently switched from shakehand to penhold. In a roughly 4 months I've surpassed my shakehand skill level with my penhold play. I'm 33 years old.

Yes, that's completely true, but I didn't want to go that far into explaining it because I was short on time. The reason why I stated that "the brain has learned pretty much everything it can regarding motor skills" is because it is a much, much slower process as one gets older and I wanted to make it clear that changing one's stroke would only detrimentally affect that person's game during the years that they are playing competitively. I also stated "pretty much everything," leaving room for learning. I am planning to write a more in depth article on the mental aspect of TT, using information from psychology and neuroscience to explain "why stuff happens" in the best way I can. Is it OK if I PM you when I write that article? I want to make it clear I do not want to pump false information into people.

cls2222 wrote: The scientific reason why learning a new stroke at an older age is so tough is because the brain does not actually learn the stroke. It adapts your current movements to somehow mimic the stroke that you want to produce. For example, after a certain age, some believe it is 25, the brain has learned pretty much everything it can regarding motor skills. After that, your body just adapts the existing movements that are "pre-programmed" in your brain to create the stroke you want to execute.

Just FYI, all this above is almost entirely false.

Yes, learning things--almost all things, not just motor skills--becomes more difficult with age. This is not because you cannot learn new things and can only "mimic" new things by putting together already known movements. It's because when a person is young his (or her) synapses are still forming. His brain is more plastic; whereas, older people's brains have established many connections and plasticity somewhat decrements. But these connections can change and new ones can form. To suggest that one cannot learn new things but somehow only sews together already known things to "mimic" something is simply false.

Also, it is false that we've "learned pretty much everything we can regarding motor skills" by the age of 25. That age is the average age that the brain completes maturation (but of course it varies). Around that time is when the prefrontal cortex fully myelinates, but that has almost nothing to do with motor output. The prefrontal cortex is highly correlated with emotion regulation and other executive functions, but not motor outputs.

Although plasticity diminishes with age, there is no reason to think that people cannot learn new things at a "late" age. Granted, highly competitive players in their mid twenties (or even younger) probably shouldn't change major things in their game, such as grip, etc. But even with age-related diminution in neural plasticity, the adult brain still remains fairly plastic. It simply requires a little more effort to acquire new skills. Just for example, I recently switched from shakehand to penhold. In a roughly 4 months I've surpassed my shakehand skill level with my penhold play. I'm 33 years old.